Australia Australia - Marion Barter, 51, missing after trip to UK, Jun 1997 #3

[TootsieFootsie]

I'd never thought of it like that before.
If your name will be changed by marriage, why bother going to the trouble of changing it to that name.

 

[KiwiNZ]

Agree I can't get my head around this

Yes, that's a puzzle isn't it, why change your name to Remakel if you're marrying one .... and even more puzzling, who changes their first name after 51 years on earth, gives themselves a new first name, middle name and leaves their first name as a third name .... ??[/QUOTE]

this is just so mind bending, as they say the truth is crazier than fiction, which is why I like true crime. But with this case it is hard to make sense of nonsense.

The name is change is truly bizarre, as you say why change your name if you intend to marry ? Changing your name is not marriage and would hold no water with immigration requirements in other countries, you need a marriage certificate for that … you could use it to convince other avenues you were a married couple though ? like the bank as they do not require a marriage cert, but I don't see what the end gain would be or in what situation that would be advantageous.

I also cant seem to move past that Marion did change her name and re entered the country without telling her family, if the police are correct and the bank ID her 3 months after re-entering then she didn't bother contacting them in all that time, that's just not normal and seems deliberate in nature. Maybe the reason we are having such trouble connecting the dots is that this is random and Marion did choose to disappear an therefore there is no 3rd party to connect the dots too..



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[sunnynz]

Someone mentioned dating agencies - they were huge at that time in NZ and I imagine maybe the same in Aus? Anyone who has a way to search what the dating agencies were in Marion's town at that time? A very viable way for a woman of her age to meet a love interest back in the 90s

 

[KiwiNZ]

Agree I can't get my head around this

Yes, that's a puzzle isn't it, why change your name to Remakel if you're marrying one .... and even more puzzling, who changes their first name after 51 years on earth, gives themselves a new first name, middle name and leaves their first name as a third name .... ??[/QUOTE]

this is just so mind bending, as they say the truth is crazier than fiction, which is why I like true crime. But with this case it is hard to make sense of nonsense.

The name is change is truly bizarre, as you say why change your name if you intend to marry ? Changing your name is not marriage and would hold no water with immigration requirements in other countries, you need a marriage certificate for that … you could use it to convince other avenues you were a married couple though ? like the bank as they do not require a marriage cert, but I don't see what the end gain would be or in what situation that would be advantageous.

I also cant seem to move past that Marion did change her name and re entered the country without telling her family, if the police are correct and the bank ID her 3 months after re-entering then she didn't bother contacting them in all that time, that's just not normal and seems deliberate in nature. Maybe the reason we are having such trouble connecting the dots is that this is random and Marion did choose to disappear an therefore there is no 3rd party to connect the dots too..

Someone mentioned dating agencies - they were huge at that time in NZ and I imagine maybe the same in Aus? Anyone who has a way to search what the dating agencies were in Marion's town at that time? A very viable way for a woman of her age to meet a love interest back in the 90s

I am using Trove to search dating agencies Ads. There is one called "perfect match" in NSW in 1997 they have intros like -

Mike - 49 - Teacher - tall, dark, handsome, educated, looking for marriage

No idea if they used descriptions of real people or if it was just a lure lol
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[Intriguedbyintrigue]

I've been thinking about why Marion chose Luxembourg.

According to this article Luxembourg teachers are the highest paid of all OECD countries which suggests that teachers are highly valued in Lux.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...FjAPegQIAxAB&usg=AOvVaw3teuSo6EV4qwoVT6JvIwkO
I found another article which talks about the teaching structure in Lux state schools (called fundamental schools) and its very different to Australia. Lux schools are split into districts (called arrondissments). Each arrondissment has an inspector who is the heirarchial head of all the teachers at those schools. There is no heirarchial authority permanently present at any one school. This may have been a very attractive arrangement for Marion who had been having difficulties with the principle/administration at her last school.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...FjAEegQIAxAB&usg=AOvVaw1REo6dJdfRiHD-rINTluYx
In 1996/97 there were a couple of events which i doubt made news here but might have been discussed in teaching journals/publications. One was a Luxembourg government push to eliminate discrimination against women and the policies included significant pre-school educational initiatives. The second was a teachers union dispute regarding teaching contract arrangements and workloads.

Patrick Remakel is currently the head of the teachers union in Luxembourg. He is also a member of the national school board and president of the Hesperange school committee (Hesperange is a town/suburb in Luxemburg). According to this union flyer in 1997 Patrick was a teacher at Hesperange (state primary school) running the 'Welcome course'. I couldnt find reference to what the welcome course was (new teachers? Immigrants? Kindy/prep?).
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...FjAPegQICBAB&usg=AOvVaw3_fc_5CcclT4a6ZKjAcxBI

Luxembourg may have looked like a good place to look for work if Marion decided she would stay in the UK. She may have wanted a local sounding name on paper to help with her prospects of being hired. Keeping 'Marion' as a third name enabled her to plausibly still use it as her preferred name (face to face). Many women change their name after they divorce. Maybe Marion had been thinking of for sometime.

 

[sunnynz]

I am using Trove to search dating agencies Ads. There is one called "perfect match" in NSW in 1997 they have intros like -

Mike - 49 - Teacher - tall, dark, handsome, educated, looking for marriage

No idea if they used descriptions of real people or if it was just a lure lol
​

great! Interested to know if they have women’s profiles on there too...

 

[Sophie-Renee]

The thing that is so odd is that there is nothing in the ad connecting it to Luxembourg, yet the only person matching the age/name in the ad lives in Lux and Marion wrote Lux on her passenger card. If the ad was written by the Fernand in Luxembourg, perhaps he was just an seeking a phone/letter companion (despite saying he wanted marriage). If it wasn’t written by Fernand, seems possibly written by someone who knew Fernand well enough to describe him & his accomplishments fairly accurately. Maybe an old Fernand acquaintance moves to NSW and tried to impress the ladies by pretending he is a successful professional/ former footballer.

In the end, however, I cannot see what benefit it would be for Marion to change her name to Remakel, even if she had contact with the person placing the ad. If she planned to marry this man, then she wouldn’t have needed to change her name in the manner she did. She could have changed her name by marriage.

These are the ideas I have been thinking of too and yet wondering a lot of other questions on top of it. The ad with the name Remakel and the Luxembourg connection on her passenger card seem a bit too coincidental. However, I have been not too sure about the podcast trying to single out Mr Remakel as there is a high chance here he himself is a victim of stolen identity. Because, let's say this was Mr Remakel- we think he has done something wrong, right..a scammer etc..so why use his own name? But , we cannot seem to find any actual marriage record for Marion-simply the name change. Why not marry if this person had all the legal documents proving his name as Remakel? He may have got Marion to change her name first, but continue to string her along about marriage- because he was pretending to be someone else. I don't know how anyone could get her to not see the passenger card and even seeing it saying married, or get her to wrote that if she wasn't - but maybe by then she knew something was wrong , but was acting under their demands through fear. I think Mr Remakel may be a victim in all of this too and if the police do get involved with him, I hope treat him with this in mind. I think the name change was directly to get Marion linked with the name Remakel , because immediately it paves the search for her down the wrong path and to the wrong people.

 

[Sophie-Renee]

I'd never thought of it like that before.
If your name will be changed by marriage, why bother going to the trouble of changing it to that name.

I think some people do, if there is the possibility of marriage but it is not set in stone or else there is a long engagement. Also sometimes people don't want the surname of the partner they divorced from, but would not go back to their own. My fiance actually changed names in a previous relationship to that of their partner. They never married though. It is like a marriage in name only- a halfway house. Sometimes people just want to feel more partenerd with the other person generally and I think that may have been the case for Marion- maybe she didn't know if they would ever marry or if so, when. I can imagine it being a more moving away from herself and things going on in her life and a name change was just the first step. As we know there were plenty more plans to distance herself. She may have wanted to change her name anyway and thought, why change it to something else if am going to marry further down the line anyway - so simply changed it to the Remakel she was seeing, or who she thought was Remakel.

 

[KiwiNZ]

I am not married been with my partner 22 years, If I could be bothered I would just change my last name by Deed poll but that sort of stuff is just not important to me, However for most women it is so I can see why someone would do this but I can get my head around Marion's situation to do this. Or why you would also change your first names and not tell anyone.

If the name change was proposed by the "Remakel scammer" then how does this benefit him ? what could he use this for, there must be a point to it … and if it was proposed by the scammer than I think it must link to the same person in the Remakel advert and the person who wrote the ad is the person who knows what happened to Marion.

If Marion instigated the name change herself from a relationship with the "Remakel ad" man, then that is next level issues, that does not seem like someone whom's mental health is in tact. That is fanciful behavior.

Or if the name change was just random selection and nothing to do with the ad or a man then I think she has just chosen to start a new life. I have been watching Doco's of people who went missing and then found, they mostly act totally normally right up to the point of disappearance and then seem to just mentally transition to their new life and close the door on the old and never look back.

 

[Itsapuzzle]

Now this fellow, he seems to have been sentenced to five years in 1998 ... does anyone know the date and is the sentence available? Just curious. Had a look at his history in the National Archives, says he speaks French and other languages. Been Googling ASIO, spy, Australian, con, scam ...... possible reasons for name change and secrecy.
Serial scammer acted as ASIO representative in Europe, plant claims

 

[KiwiNZ]

Now this fellow, he seems to have been sentenced to five years in 1998 ... does anyone know the date and is the sentence available? Just curious. Had a look at his history in the National Archives, says he speaks French and other languages. Been Googling ASIO, spy, Australian, con, scam ...... possible reasons for name change and secrecy.
Serial scammer acted as ASIO representative in Europe, plant claims

Thank you Itsapuzzel great find.

I saw the sting on 60mins with this guy, I did think there could be connection but he hasn't physically harmed anyone that I can find but you never know. He does fit the bill.

Please watch the this doco from 1.20 mins

Goran Markovic - Bing video

Could this be why Marion said to Sally in the last telephone conversation that she would not here from her for awhile, did she not contact Sally when back in Aus as she felt her or sally's life was in danger ?

 

[KiwiNZ]

The above is part 2 of the doco, there is also a part one if anyone want to view the whole thing -

Goran Markovic - Bing video

 

[Itsapuzzle]

The above is part 2 of the doco, there is also a part one if anyone want to view the whole thing -

Goran Markovic - Bing video

Thanks KiwiNZ, most excellent story from 60 Minutes, thanks for posting it here. H'mm, where was this fellow in December 1994 .....

 

[KiwiNZ]

Thanks KiwiNZ, most excellent story from 60 Minutes, thanks for posting it here. H'mm, where was this fellow in December 1994 .....

interesting he used western union (money transfer) for victims to transfer money, wonder if that was were the $5K per day was going ?

 

[Itsapuzzle]

interesting he used western union (money transfer) for victims to transfer money, wonder if that was where the $5K per day was going ?

H'mm, very interesting .... and height, 183 cm tall. Actually, does he look a bit like Mr Remakel ....

 

[Sophie-Renee]

Now this fellow, he seems to have been sentenced to five years in 1998 ... does anyone know the date and is the sentence available? Just curious. Had a look at his history in the National Archives, says he speaks French and other languages. Been Googling ASIO, spy, Australian, con, scam ...... possible reasons for name change and secrecy.
Serial scammer acted as ASIO representative in Europe, plant claims

Brilliant find. Now, this man I have finally found was from Blacktown, but in this article, from 2017 it states :

"The 58-year-old moved from Sydney to London more than a decade ago, where he remained frustratingly out of reach for his alleged crimes."

https://www.smh.com.au/national/nsw...ic-faces-court-in-sydney-20170309-guuuyu.html

This may have made it just before 2007, but is evidence that he had connection or familiarity to the UK prior to that. However, it would have made him just 38 in 1997, as opposed to Marion at 51. Would this age gap make it less likely? Anyone can lie in an ad about their age. It may be Marion met with him, but by which time it was too late. Maybe she believed he was a bit younger than he said, but age didn't matter to her.

 

[Zechoan]

Hi. I haven't posted anything on this site for quite a few years now I don't think but have recently discovered this case after listening to the podcast. I have found the case extremely baffling and interesting in equal measures. The case also drew me in as I live here in Australia, am close in age to Sally and also a Mum (and a daughter obviously lol), am a trained primary school teacher (though currently a SAHM) and have visited and longed to live along the coast from Byron Bay in NSW to Queensland. I also have what my husband refers to as an 'abnormal interest' in cold cases and missing person cases.

Anyway, I so far have watched the podcast and caught up on a lot of reading of all your posts here. Before I join in with you all and ask questions and make comments, could someone please share with me or tell me where I can find a timeline of all the dates of the case starting from when Marion changed her name and then resigned from TSS? I'm sure I saw one in my reading but not sure now if it was in another thread of discussion somewhere as can't find it here. Thankyou.

 

[Sophie-Renee]

Hi. I haven't posted anything on this site for quite a few years now I don't think but have recently discovered this case after listening to the podcast. I have found the case extremely baffling and interesting in equal measures. The case also drew me in as I live here in Australia, am close in age to Sally and also a Mum (and a daughter obviously lol), am a trained primary school teacher (though currently a SAHM) and have visited and longed to live along the coast from Byron Bay in NSW to Queensland. I also have what my husband refers to as an 'abnormal interest' in cold cases and missing person cases.

Anyway, I so far have watched the podcast and caught up on a lot of reading of all your posts here. Before I join in with you all and ask questions and make comments, could someone please share with me or tell me where I can find a timeline of all the dates of the case starting from when Marion changed her name and then resigned from TSS? I'm sure I saw one in my reading but not sure now if it was in another thread of discussion somewhere as can't find it here. Thankyou.

First of all , welcome back! Good to have you here. The most detailed timeline I have seen is from 7 News which goes right back to her left before she disappeared , then is quite detailed in the actual time of her disappearance...

https://7news.com.au/original-fyi/t...line-of-marion-barters-disappearance-c-200848

 

[KiwiNZ]

Brilliant find. Now, this man I have finally found was from Blacktown, but in this article, from 2017 it states :

"The 58-year-old moved from Sydney to London more than a decade ago, where he remained frustratingly out of reach for his alleged crimes."

https://www.smh.com.au/national/nsw...ic-faces-court-in-sydney-20170309-guuuyu.html

This may have made it just before 2007, but is evidence that he had connection or familiarity to the UK prior to that. However, it would have made him just 38 in 1997, as opposed to Marion at 51. Would this age gap make it less likely? Anyone can lie in an ad about their age. It may be Marion met with him, but by which time it was too late. Maybe she believed he was a bit younger than he said, but age didn't matter to her.

I think if he assumed the identity of Fernand Remakel then he would have pretended to be the age in the Ad, he looks like he could pass as older even in his younger days. Also found some comments online that he has used dating scams as a way of connecting with his victims

His crimes / deceptions are quite complex he goes to some lengths to deceive people, and has assumed multiple identity’s. He was operating in the 90’s. Bankrupted in the 80’s.

To me this makes the most sense after watching and reading Kelly’s story, this could be why Marion was in Australia but made no contact with her family as she may have been lead to believe there was some kind of threat to her and her family. Was it him that planted the seed of the allegation of touching boys to gain control ?

 

[Itsapuzzle]

Hi. I haven't posted anything on this site for quite a few years now I don't think but have recently discovered this case after listening to the podcast. I have found the case extremely baffling and interesting in equal measures. The case also drew me in as I live here in Australia, am close in age to Sally and also a Mum (and a daughter obviously lol), am a trained primary school teacher (though currently a SAHM) and have visited and longed to live along the coast from Byron Bay in NSW to Queensland. I also have what my husband refers to as an 'abnormal interest' in cold cases and missing person cases.

Anyway, I so far have watched the podcast and caught up on a lot of reading of all your posts here. Before I join in with you all and ask questions and make comments, could someone please share with me or tell me where I can find a timeline of all the dates of the case starting from when Marion changed her name and then resigned from TSS? I'm sure I saw one in my reading but not sure now if it was in another thread of discussion somewhere as can't find it here. Thankyou.

Hi Zechoan, there is also a timeline here put together by Pi Thoughts and expanded by Mel 1303, just click on the #241 link below, should take you to it.
Mel 1303, Jun 8, 2019
#241