Australia Australia - Marion Barter, 51, missing after trip to UK, Jun 1997 #3

[TootsieFootsie]

Not even children of one of the parties ?

Just looked at the FB page and Sally has said that Luxembourg's marriage records are impossible to access. I had a look online myself and it seems that only one of the parties in the marriage can order a copy of the certificate.

 

[sunnynz]

Not even children of one of the parties ?

It doesn’t seem like it. I tried two different sites and the first one said ‘one of the spouses can apply’. The other one says something similar but phrased differently.
The application form also only gave three options to even start filling in the form and all of them involved the applicant being a resident of Luxembourg either currently or in the past.

 

[Seriallyaddicted]

So the most interesting things I took out of the latest episode...
- The discovery of Marion's outgoing passenger card and the info on it seems to indicate a clear intention (if we take things at face value). She was going overseas as a divorced woman, with the intention of heading to Luxembourg, and then subsequently came back from overseas as a married woman.
- The theory of Sally's that Marion hopped across to Luxembourg via train from near Brighton makes sense.
- It seems clear now from handwriting that it was Marion who left and also Marion who flew back. So why did she come back such a short time after getting married? My theory would be that her new husband put some kind of pressure on her (whether subtle or overt) to head back to Aus to get her money out of the bank. She only intended to be in Aus a few days for this purpose but then somethign went wrong from there.

Yes very interesting new information and confirms my own previous thoughts that it was definitely Marion who came back to Australia.

My previous thoughts on why she came back was because her bank accounts were in her old name and she couldn’t withdraw the money overseas because she needed a passport to do that overseas and that was in her new name. I think she didn’t take that into account when going over so she had to come back for that reason.

We don’t know if there was another man. It could well be that she was losing her mind and it was all fabricated and she came back and killed herself back in Australia.
My gut tells me there was another man. Who knows if there was that that man came back to Australia too. It could be that she got the money out and someone else here found it and killed her.
Just so many possibilities of what happened back here in Australia.

I have always suspected Ferdinand though. His reaction when they knocked on his door and they mentioned marions name has always been problematic for me.

 

[Podcast Tragic]

So does the latest episode mean that she met someone here/changed her name (WHY) and then went to Luxembourg to marry him.All while telling her family she was having a great holiday. Then secretly returned to Australia to clean out her bank account . But never left Australia again on the same passport??? Surely there is a way to find who she was travelling with...both in and out of Australia.

 

[Seriallyaddicted]

So does the latest episode mean that she met someone here/changed her name (WHY) and then went to Luxembourg to marry him.All while telling her family she was having a great holiday. Then secretly returned to Australia to clean out her bank account . But never left Australia again on the same passport??? Surely there is a way to find who she was travelling with...both in and out of Australia.

It confirms that she changed her name before she left Australia, got a new passport in her new name, travelled overseas on her new name and returned back to Australia in her new name.

we don’t know if there was someone else traveling with her but yes finding out if someone was with her traveling or if she got married overseas and to whom is key to cracking the case.

 

[sunnybree]

I agree that finding the husband is the key. More likely the police can make a formal request via the official channels for the information to see if there is a marriage certificate.

I think a person whose surname may or may not have been Remakel (probably fake given there is no record of a Remakel other than Marion coming or going from the country within a reasonable period of time) met Marion and they formed a relationship. This person has likely then engaged in a grooming process towards Marion; this grooming process slowly but surely desensitising Marion to behaviour an outsider would deem as manipulative and controlling such as requiring her to keep the relationship secret and then planning a holiday with her that required her to keep her true plans secret. The end goal of which may have been for Marion to cut off all contact with her family to ensure the perpetrator has entire control over her. The money may have been the primary goal or it may have been an extension of the perpetrator’s control.

 

[Meligator]

Unless laws have changed, it seems for civil marriage in Lux, there are requirements for certain docs (a month ahead of time) and publication (banns) of upcoming marriage. Perhaps Banns from that time would be available? Documentation and Requirements for Marriage - Luxembourg - Angloinfo

 

[Loobyloo2]

I used to think this too, however I’ve been doing a lot of research about obtaining European citizenship - I stared with Luxembourg and then looked into other countries such as France and Italy.

Rules have changed slightly since 1997, however I don’t think it was possible for her to travel there and get married AND then get citizenship of that country in such a small timeframe. Most of these countries require a continued term of residence in said country (5 years is the standard timeframe), so unless they’ve somehow managed to fool Luxembourg or some other country into believing she had a continued term of residence there to be able to grant her citizenship and then in turn a visa, it isn’t possible that she’s left the country again. The only other way she could have left in my opinion, is if she illegally acquired a passport (possible and also was done in other cases) or left by some other illegal channel.

Has anyone else been looking into citizenship? I haven’t looked into the rules for Hong Kong yet and I’m sure there are other European countries that’s rules differ from the above.

On the latest podcast episode 18 of the lady vanishes it was said that if Marion did go back to Luxembourg with her married name it is quite normal for people to still use their maiden name. Here is an interesting thread about the whole subject. Name change after marriage : Luxembourg. The whole subject of citizenship in Luxembourg is usually a 7 year wait.
Luxembourg citizenship

1. Be 18 years of age or older at the time the application is submitted.
2. Have legally lived in Luxembourg for seven consecutive years.
3. You must pass an oral test in Luxembourgish.
4. You must have attended three civic instruction classes.
5. You met meet integrity requirements.

 

[Housemartyn]

I still can't get off my mind the 'mistake' of announcing that Marion had been diagnosed with a large rectal tumour! Where the heck did that come from, so swiftly retracted and little explanation as to why. It's still not totally unreasonable to think that Marion had a terminal cancer and wanted to escape her family to go on a journey for a year or so but it didn't quite pan out how she wanted. There's nothing to say she got married, there's no new theory as to where she was or what she was doing, but there are medical issues which we are all still not clear about.

 

[Meligator]

On the latest podcast episode 18 of the lady vanishes it was said that if Marion did go back to Luxembourg with her married name it is quite normal for people to still use their maiden name. Here is an interesting thread about the whole subject. Name change after marriage : Luxembourg. The whole subject of citizenship in Luxembourg is usually a 7 year wait.
Luxembourg citizenship

1. Be 18 years of age or older at the time the application is submitted.
2. Have legally lived in Luxembourg for seven consecutive years.
3. You must pass an oral test in Luxembourgish.
4. You must have attended three civic instruction classes.
5. You met meet integrity requirements.

IMO, I believe it’s unlikely she left Australia after returning. But we don’t know for sure that she ever actually went to Luxembourg or got married. Maybe the info on the passenger cards was just to further obscure her location/plan.

 

[Loobyloo2]

I suspect she never left Australia after returning August 2nd. Her Florabella name was unknown to Sally until 2011, but by October 1997 the banks had alerted her that Sally knew she had likely returned (A wrench in Marion’s plan to have gone missing in UK).. At that point Marion may have decided it safest to stop using Florabella & Marion. She must have assumed a new identity not through name change (e.g., stolen identity).

As for Remakel/Luxembourg connection, I suspect it’s all a red herring to further misdirect. She may have in fact met a Remakel from Lux—or even a answered the ad (which would explain how she had familiarity with the name), but putting something on a passenger card that leads her whereabouts.

I wonder if she used her time in UK to change her appearance (dye hair, plastic surgery)...she may be living in Australia under a different name & not strongly resembling her photo. In fact, maybe her doctor visits were in prep/post for some reconstructive work (just a thought).

It is all very interesting with the name change. If she did change her name again and has since passed on there are very few people I can find on ancestory records with the date of birth 3/10/1945 and a fitting name. As it has been pointed out before the name Remakel does not even seem to appear in Australia. Marion's name change appears to be unique to Australia, one of a kind. There is the surname variation Remcle/Rumacles but even with this there are very few in Devonport, Tasmania and no Remakels or even Remacles. It makes me wonder if she just wanted to start a new life and have a remake.

 

[Loobyloo2]

I still can't get off my mind the 'mistake' of announcing that Marion had been diagnosed with a large rectal tumour! Where the heck did that come from, so swiftly retracted and little explanation as to why. It's still not totally unreasonable to think that Marion had a terminal cancer and wanted to escape her family to go on a journey for a year or so but it didn't quite pan out how she wanted. There's nothing to say she got married, there's no new theory as to where she was or what she was doing, but there are medical issues which we are all still not clear about.

There was something mentioned in the latest podcast episode 18 about a routine operation, I seem to recall a small polyp but would need to listen again. It was also mentioned by her family that Marion was unable to have any more children and had surgery for a hysterectomy. There where a few female related issues health wise but I can imagine that anything else was media sensation.

 

[Loobyloo2]

Thank you Well I am actually Scottish born and bred but living in England now. Sophie renee is really just my name on here. Noticed most people had nicknames so gave my sleuther name a kind of pseudonym.

Does seem a bit strange to get such an award and then just want to completely pack her whole career in the following year with such haste.

The school where Marion was teaching had some historical allegations made. Maybe she wanted to get away from the whole situation as from what I have read she was a good teacher and well liked in the community.

 

[Loobyloo2]

Been looking at old online magazines from USA for scientology/Kenja/Le Courrier International links - found nothing yet .... new thought, could Marion have become a Quaker?? Too nuts, h'mm, maybe. Quaker school here in Tassie .... Tunbridge Wells, Kent .... Quakers in Australia ..... will have a bit of a look into it just to see what it was all about back in '97. Big in America and England, so maybe mentioned in a magazine in LA library .... worth a look, might stumble across something.

When Marion came to Brighton she could have well gone past the Quakers place called the Friends meeting house. However, there has never any talk about them being anything untoward. At the time of her visiting Brighton the Jesus Army where very active in the area as was Scientology. The shop Marion visited called the cat shop in Prince Albert Street was only a 4 minute walk from where the Jesus Army sometimes had evening gatherings. Nothing which has been said seems to tie in with any of the local alternative religions here in the UK. The podcasts mention Hermes Far Eastern Shining, otherwise known as the Water People which is in Tyalgum, NSW, Australia.

 

[Loobyloo2]

Itsapuzzle, I had hoped you lived in LA I live in San Diego which is close. I can search my library database but not LA's. Is an e-card available for me? I could join and you could use? -- I had a thought for you. There are lots of Remakels in the US (and California.) Long ago immigrants from Luxembourg. What if the mysterious man were a Remakel but not Fernand? An American Remakel. I also wondered if maybe she met someone through the Scientologist school connection / award ceremony-- named-- wait for it. . . Remakel.

There is a Remakel family from Sandiwailer in Luxembourg who emigrated to Nebraska, America in the early 1900's and had both French and Luxembourg connections. It says on their immigration record that they still had family in both places when they came to the USA so anything is at all possible.

 

[Samroo]

I have a terrible feeling maybe Marion came back to tell a few close people she was moving permanently and had got married. Maybe one or more of those people weren’t happy about this and something happened, maybe an accident. Maybe the sort of people who, for example, think Sally should just forget about everything.

 

[Loobyloo2]

We now know Marion had a mobile phone at the time, so that number would/could have been recorded with the bank, you'd think. Wondering if anyone from Marion's family tried ringing that number when it was discovered she had apparently returned to Australia. Was the number no longer connected, or did it ring out? That'd be interesting to know.

What baffles me is how the police would have contacted Marion by phone to ask if she was ok and her family where unable too? This would mean she would have had a telephone number unknown to her immediate family.

 

[Loobyloo2]

My thinking is that the F Remakel Le Courier ad was someone not using their real name.
I think that the real Fernand Remakel had nothing to do with it.

And that they advertised in more than one country. Hence the possible LA library ad.
I am surprised that no one has come forward saying that they had responded to the ad here,
though maybe someone did and got scammed out of money and felt too embarrassed to come forward.
Or if anyone did, maybe they haven't heard of the case.
Or just don't want to get involved.

Maybe whoever placed the ad is a scammer or scammers who turned into killers.

All just thoughts of what possibly might have happened.
Maybe none of it is true.

Someone may have responded later to the advert or is this one of the sleuths from websleuths or the missing Marion Barter facebook page maybe. À la recherche de M. Fernand Remakel

 

[Loobyloo2]

Does anyone know the authenticity of the “Box L51 Lennox Head” P.O. Box address used in the Remakel newspaper advert?
Is L51 an actual thing? I tried searching and I couldn’t find another L address (eg L15).

I have found the whole newpaper advert very odd as there are no Remakels living in Australia at all. There was a dating scam around the time with a company called True Love Corp but as far as I know they did not place the advert.

 

[Loobyloo2]

Hi sleuthers,

This is a bit long + confusing so be patient with me . .

Find unclaimed money | ASIC's MoneySmart

Type in Marion Barter on this ASIC search page and you’ll bring up the $14889.70 unclaimed funds. Click on the cross where it says ‘more details’ and you’ll see it says Money From: Commonwealth Bank of Australia. The ‘Last known address (account/owner)’ box states ‘Barclays Bank mint St Rye…’

Now just for a comparison type in a different common name to this search page and see how the listings are set out. The ‘last known address’ section is usually just a street address or a Post office box as you would expect. In Marion’s case it’s a street address for a UK bank, so this is what has caused the confusion, its making it look at first glance like Marion had a Barclays account.

These unclaimed funds of $14889.70 refer to an amount sent to ASIC from the Commonwealth Bank, not from Barclays in the UK. The Barclays Mint St address was (for reasons not clear) a contact address for this Commonwealth bank account. CBA is affiliated with Barclays so not sure if this was an address suggested to Marion by CBA as a temporary UK address to use when overseas.

It is mentioned very briefly by Sally in the end of this conversations episode;

Conversations 12 at about 47.30 mins

‘Barclays Bank Mint St in Rye was my mum’s nominated address in the UK, so not the fact that the money was sitting in Barclays Bank but that my mum’s address in the UK was listed as Mint St on Rye which is a Barclays Bank. And the money was not actually sitting in the bank as we first thought, turns out the CBA has affiliates with banks throughout the world and Barclays Bank is the one for the UK’

So Marion never had a UK bank account. Well not one that we know of anyway. This was just money held in a Commonwealth Bank account returned to ASIC as unclaimed as per the usual process, but with an unusual and confusing contact address for the account holder.

Thoughts?

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