Australia Australia - Marion Barter, 51, missing after trip to UK, June 1997 #10

[John Bird]

Any connections here ? https://be.linkedin.com/in/monique-cornelis-147004b3.

That is Monique Cornelis, not Cornelius. Different spelling, extra letter.

This seems more like it, but not much info
https://www.editus.lu/en/cornelius-monique-elise-jeanne-itzig-1892366

 

[centred]

Hi @Eyespywithmylittleeye
RE: Travelling via Japan
I am making no assumptions about whether you are from Oz or not, and this response is just based on personal experience regularly travelling the Brisbane to London route solo.
So this aspect of behaviour (travelling to the UK via Japan) is the least strange bit for me. If you do the long haul flight from Brisbane to London there were a few ways of doing it and transiting. Brisbane-KL-London; Brisbane-Singapore-London; Brisbane-Dubai-London; Brisbane-Nadi-Hawaii-Vancouver-London (Are just a few that spring to mind. Even Brisbane-Bangkok- London. My first long haul UK to Brisbane in 80s went Heathrow-Frankfurt-Kuwait-Bangkok-Sydney-Brisbane. And once Around this time late 90s/ early 2000s, because JAL had promotion price I went Brisbane-Tokyo-London. Because the flight took me north over Russia and the Arctic and approached The UK from the north it was also interesting! On the long haul flights, depending on how quick you wanted to get to the UK you wouldn’t necessarily do a stopover in any of the places en route, so you would transit and luggage would be transferred straight through….so it wouldn’t matter how many bags you had. If the connecting flights were not that close you could even stay in an overnight transit hotel for a while without all your luggage.
I’m not sure if this helps but it doesn’t appear that strange to me.
The South Korea connection is of interest though.

"
On the long haul flights, depending on how quick you wanted to get to the UK you wouldn’t necessarily do a stopover in any of the places en route, so you would transit and luggage would be transferred straight through….so it wouldn’t matter how many bags you had. If the connecting flights were not that close you could even stay in an overnight transit hotel for a while without all your luggage.
I’m not sure if this helps but it doesn’t appear that strange to me."

It helps as far as I am concerned @gymtonic

If RB is in the UK at Heathrow when MB (FNMR) luggage arrives as her husband aka (FNR)
identification on his Luxembourg international license in theory he could collect it on her behalf ?

Marion by this time is traveling light until she arrives at Heathrow or until she hires a car and /or her accommodation , which i can imagine would be prebooked especially on first days in rhe UK
IMO

I am leaning towards a theory RB used the several School Teacher contacts to further hook her in to his plan to connect her up with others who can "help " with her dream , sound familiar ?

 

[Eyespywithmylittleeye]

That is Monique Cornelis, not Cornelius. Different spelling, extra letter.

This seems more like it, but not much info
https://www.editus.lu/en/cornelius-monique-elise-jeanne-itzig-1892366

That is the full name that I think is the correct MC

 

[Roseberry]

"
On the long haul flights, depending on how quick you wanted to get to the UK you wouldn’t necessarily do a stopover in any of the places en route, so you would transit and luggage would be transferred straight through….so it wouldn’t matter how many bags you had. If the connecting flights were not that close you could even stay in an overnight transit hotel for a while without all your luggage.
I’m not sure if this helps but it doesn’t appear that strange to me."

It helps as far as I am concerned @gymtonic

If RB is in the UK at Heathrow when MB (FNMR) luggage arrives as her husband aka (FNR)
identification on his Luxembourg international license in theory he could collect it on her behalf ?

Marion by this time is traveling light until she arrives at Heathrow or until she hires a car and /or her accommodation , which i can imagine would be prebooked especially on first days in rhe UK
IMO

I am leaning towards a theory RB used the several School Teacher contacts to further hook her in to his plan to connect her up with others who can "help " with her dream , sound familiar ?

I agree that the FNR ID would allow him to slip in to the UK and access FNMR luggage with the documents stored there in MB's name without her knowledge and slip out of UK again via ferry.

I don't think there was any need to connect her with teaching contacts. I think she kept up her registration because you just do. I think the best evidence of the actual 'dream' was the one MB wrote herself on the Passenger card: That she intended to be a housewife in Luxembourg - and then there's that that big, triumphant tick under 'married'. The UK was the stopover 'honeymoon', where she didn't intend to stay for any length of time. The groom has told her he'd join her later after he'd completed Luxembourg business: bought them a home there and organised a Belgian marriage license (for which she'd already conveniently changed her name).

I think it's highly unlikely he would have returned to a small town of 2,5oo people where he'd lived just ten years earlier with a new wife and whole different name. Even owning or staying in a place nearby - the second you rode into town everyone would know you were there. I've lived in, and returned to, tiny towns in the UK and everybody knows your business. I know the children's birth records state the Lodge, but I've also registered births in the UK (in the 1990's) - they don't necessarily write your exact address, just the main house of the estate on which you reside. I think owning the Lodge itself would've been beyond his means (and it looks as though its been in the same family's hands throughout that period), but renting or living in a grace-and-favour flat or cottage on the estate is possible.

The purpose of sending MB on on known routes and to known places alone is so that he knows exactly where she is and so he can contact her while he's in continental Europe.

I do think that in a situation where there is little to go on in establishing her movements every little clue might be important and if she has mentioned meeting someone who was Dutch and she's possibly stayed in a small town practically owned by a family with a Dutch surname then it's maybe worth looking at.

I don't think he was with her in the UK, for most of the time, anyway. I've followed the podcast since it all began, watched all of the inquests (several times) and been through most of the threads here. Most of this has probably been said before and apologies for not correctly posting links. And it's all IMO.

 

[centred]

I agree that the FNR ID would allow him to slip in to the UK and access FNMR luggage with the documents stored there in MB's name without her knowledge and slip out of UK again via ferry.

I don't think there was any need to connect her with teaching contacts. I think she kept up her registration because you just do. I think the best evidence of the actual 'dream' was the one MB wrote herself on the Passenger card: That she intended to be a housewife in Luxembourg - and then there's that that big, triumphant tick under 'married'. The UK was the stopover 'honeymoon', where she didn't intend to stay for any length of time. The groom has told her he'd join her later after he'd completed Luxembourg business: bought them a home there and organised a Belgian marriage license (for which she'd already conveniently changed her name).

I think it's highly unlikely he would have returned to a small town of 2,5oo people where he'd lived just ten years earlier with a new wife and whole different name. Even owning or staying in a place nearby - the second you rode into town everyone would know you were there. I've lived in, and returned to, tiny towns in the UK and everybody knows your business. I know the children's birth records state the Lodge, but I've also registered births in the UK (in the 1990's) - they don't necessarily write your exact address, just the main house of the estate on which you reside. I think owning the Lodge itself would've been beyond his means (and it looks as though its been in the same family's hands throughout that period), but renting or living in a grace-and-favour flat or cottage on the estate is possible.

The purpose of sending MB on on known routes and to known places alone is so that he knows exactly where she is and so he can contact her while he's in continental Europe.

I do think that in a situation where there is little to go on in establishing her movements every little clue might be important and if she has mentioned meeting someone who was Dutch and she's possibly stayed in a small town practically owned by a family with a Dutch surname then it's maybe worth looking at.

I don't think he was with her in the UK, for most of the time, anyway. I've followed the podcast since it all began, watched all of the inquests (several times) and been through most of the threads here. Most of this has probably been said before and apologies for not correctly posting links. And it's all IMO.

I do not consider he has to introduce her to any contacts , he only used the names and places and his AKA identity to her at the time was FNR from Luxembourg as a story to her as part of the familiar MO he applies to others . IT is a story line .

Also just to correct you on the birth details you mentioned , the link about this Manor was the address on the Baptism book a sleuth here had photos of ...So it was Baptism not birth details , just to be clear for you .

 

[Eyespywithmylittleeye]

"
On the long haul flights, depending on how quick you wanted to get to the UK you wouldn’t necessarily do a stopover in any of the places en route, so you would transit and luggage would be transferred straight through….so it wouldn’t matter how many bags you had. If the connecting flights were not that close you could even stay in an overnight transit hotel for a while without all your luggage.
I’m not sure if this helps but it doesn’t appear that strange to me."

It helps as far as I am concerned @gymtonic

If RB is in the UK at Heathrow when MB (FNMR) luggage arrives as her husband aka (FNR)
identification on his Luxembourg international license in theory he could collect it on her behalf ?

Marion by this time is traveling light until she arrives at Heathrow or until she hires a car and /or her accommodation , which i can imagine would be prebooked especially on first days in rhe UK
IMO

I am leaning towards a theory RB used the several School Teacher contacts to further hook her in to his plan to connect her up

I think the teaching thing was something she has said to friends and family and not something that has been high on her list at that time…. More of a ‘see I do have a long term plan not just packing up and selling on a whim’ said for the sake of others more than her own.

I think we need to look at what occurred with Jo because I think marions trip was the first trial run of his plan with Jo.. but there were flaws …
I don’t believe the plan was for Marion to return… but the $ access in Barclays was unforeseen, and I think he thought there was more in that account.

with Jo, he didn’t bother with making sure there was a uk account, or a name change…he simply had power of attorney and deed for house. So IMO the money accessibility was a hiccup and one that he revised with Jo.

I dunno but my gut says Jo was ‘Take Two’ …

 

[Eyespywithmylittleeye]

I think the teaching thing was something she has said to friends and family and not something that has been high on her list at that time…. More of a ‘see I do have a long term plan not just packing up and selling on a whim’ said for the sake of others more than her own.

I think we need to look at what occurred with Jo because I think marions trip was the first trial run of his plan with Jo.. but there were flaws …
I don’t believe the plan was for Marion to return… but the $ access in Barclays was unforeseen, and I think he thought there was more in that account.

with Jo, he didn’t bother with making sure there was a uk account, or a name change…he simply had power of attorney and deed for house. So IMO the money accessibility was a hiccup and one that he revised with Jo.

I dunno but my gut says Jo was ‘Take Two’ …

And had he have had power of attorney with Marion he would not have needed her to come back to Australia

 

[Roseberry]

I do not consider he has to introduce her to any contacts , he only used the names and places and his AKA identity to her at the time was FNR from Luxembourg as a story to her as part of the familiar MO he applies to others . IT is a story line .

Also just to correct you on the birth details you mentioned , the link about this Manor was the address on the Baptism book a sleuth here had photos of ...So it was Baptism not birth details , just to be clear for you .

Yes, I think I understand where you're coming from, just don't think he would maybe have bothered to try to offer to connect her with contacts as the plan was to get married and and live in Lux. Let me know if I'm still not on the same page with you - it's a discussion and every little bit helps.

Thanks too, for the clarification re baptismal v birth details. I was trying to say for anyone looking for records of his ownership of the Lodge and his possibility of hiding out there with MB using that, that it might have been he was only living somewhere on the wider property at the time. The main thing is the baptismal records show at one time he lived on the property somewhere, he knew it well and to help establish that later MB returned there alone under his direction.

 

[Roseberry]

I think the teaching thing was something she has said to friends and family and not something that has been high on her list at that time…. More of a ‘see I do have a long term plan not just packing up and selling on a whim’ said for the sake of others more than her own.

I think we need to look at what occurred with Jo because I think marions trip was the first trial run of his plan with Jo.. but there were flaws …
I don’t believe the plan was for Marion to return… but the $ access in Barclays was unforeseen, and I think he thought there was more in that account.

with Jo, he didn’t bother with making sure there was a uk account, or a name change…he simply had power of attorney and deed for house. So IMO the money accessibility was a hiccup and one that he revised with Jo.

I dunno but my gut says Jo was ‘Take Two’ …

Agree re refinement and modification and that JO's case is important in respect of MB's case and how it was intended to play out. Maybe 'first trial run' of this particular plan, but there's been a history of moving women across international borders (IK to Australia) for whatever purposes. As much as I initially suspected MB didn't return to Oz, it possible to assume she did for your reasons above (no access to UK bank account) and on the subsequent withdrawals and other evidence (Medicare) in Oz.

 

[LEO123]

I think the teaching thing was something she has said to friends and family and not something that has been high on her list at that time…. More of a ‘see I do have a long term plan not just packing up and selling on a whim’ said for the sake of others more than her own.

I think we need to look at what occurred with Jo because I think marions trip was the first trial run of his plan with Jo.. but there were flaws …
I don’t believe the plan was for Marion to return… but the $ access in Barclays was unforeseen, and I think he thought there was more in that account.

with Jo, he didn’t bother with making sure there was a uk account, or a name change…he simply had power of attorney and deed for house. So IMO the money accessibility was a hiccup and one that he revised with Jo.

I dunno but my gut says Jo was ‘Take Two’ …

It is possible that Marion, after speaking to her Bank, decided to open the Barclays account as a back up, especially if RB had told her she didn’t need to take much as he was cashed up. He did this with JO? So they are stranded when he is bashed up and in hospital in another country. Even though she was love bombed, I think she was an independent woman, and may have opened the account without him knowing.

Which means he would return to Australia and drain the accounts with his accomplice, while Marion was stuck in England. I still think you have to be exceptionally ballsy to go into a bank day after day for weeks withdrawing $5000 each time though.

 

[gymtonic]

"
On the long haul flights, depending on how quick you wanted to get to the UK you wouldn’t necessarily do a stopover in any of the places en route, so you would transit and luggage would be transferred straight through….so it wouldn’t matter how many bags you had. If the connecting flights were not that close you could even stay in an overnight transit hotel for a while without all your luggage.
I’m not sure if this helps but it doesn’t appear that strange to me."

It helps as far as I am concerned @gymtonic

If RB is in the UK at Heathrow when MB (FNMR) luggage arrives as her husband aka (FNR)
identification on his Luxembourg international license in theory he could collect it on her behalf ?

Marion by this time is traveling light until she arrives at Heathrow or until she hires a car and /or her accommodation , which i can imagine would be prebooked especially on first days in rhe UK
IMO

I am leaning towards a theory RB used the several School Teacher contacts to further hook her in to his plan to connect her up with others who can "help " with her dream , sound familiar ?

If I am understanding you correctly then no, RB could not collect the luggage for her. The luggage is collected from the carousel before clearing immigration and customs. Anyone waiting to meet someone arriving from the plane would not be able to access the luggage carousel. Is that the scenario you meant?

Re car hire: I now remember how I organised car hire in the UK prior to leaving Australia and prior to widespread internet use. RACQ (automobile club) magazine used to have adverts at the back for accommodation and vehicle hire. There was a particularly good one with a local number in Victoria that I went through, and they would organise it all on your behalf. Once you arrived at Heathrow you would go to the hire company airport desk (AVIS or ?? Can’t remember the others now) and/ or get a free shuttle bus to their offsite depot to collect the car. I have to add though that picking up a hire car at Heathrow and navigating your way out of the airport’s internal road and multiple terminal complex is not for the faint hearted or a first time in the UK traveler. The best option would be (and still is!) to get the tube from Heathrow into London to your London accommodation (taxi too expensive for that long journey) OR to get a National Express bus to whichever UK city or town you were headed for.

 

[centred]

If I am understanding you correctly then no, RB could not collect the luggage for her. The luggage is collected from the carousel before clearing immigration and customs. Anyone waiting to meet someone arriving from the plane would not be able to access the luggage carousel. Is that the scenario you meant?

Re car hire: I now remember how I organised car hire in the UK prior to leaving Australia and prior to widespread internet use. RACQ (automobile club) magazine used to have adverts at the back for accommodation and vehicle hire. There was a particularly good one with a local number in Victoria that went through, and they would organise it all on your behalf. Once you arrived at Heathrow you would go to the hire company airport desk (AVIS or ?? Can’t remember the others now) and/ or get a free shuttle bus to their offsite depot to collect the car.

I was going on the scenario re the luggage getting there before the flight you would be on in transit somewhere on the way for a few hours as suggested in the post i was reading , was i reading that wrong that the post said that the luggage would beat you there ?

 

[Roseberry]

It is possible that Marion, after speaking to her Bank, decided to open the Barclays account as a back up, especially if RB had told her she didn’t need to take much as he was cashed up. He did this with JO? So they are stranded when he is bashed up and in hospital in another country. Even though she was love bombed, I think she was an independent woman, and may have opened the account without him knowing.

Which means he would return to Australia and drain the accounts with his accomplice, while Marion was stuck in England. I still think you have to be exceptionally ballsy to go into a bank day after day for weeks withdrawing $5000 each time though.

Last sentence: I know, this has always been super-problematic for me. But do-able if it is actually you, MB and they know you and you're convinced you have a great reason which in turn you can convince the bank - you're starting a new life OS and you need it to buy a house your new spouse has found in Lux and urgently need the funds for, and you're avoiding W/D penalties. And after a few weeks of the drib-drab withdrawals the bank button-holes you about it and you explain the circumstances and they swallow it and suggest you W/D the remainder in a lump sum. Obviates the need for an imposter accomplice which would neccessarily involve a long-con to establish familiarity in a known-location. The former also would explain the medicare usage. Doesn't account for any schmoozed bank insider though, or reason to visit multiple branches.

 

[Bibno]

I have been on duty as the Sussex sleuth again today, paying a visit to the Burwash church that both children were baptised in. I took the attached photo of the baptism register. You will see that FDH lists his occupation as Company Director. No godparents names, as they weren’t recorded in the 1980s, but we do have the address that the family were living at in Burwash, a property called Mottynsden Lodge on Spring Lane.

Will do some more digging, but I have already seen that there is also a Mottynsden oast house at the same postcode, didn’t Marion say she at stayed at one on her trip? There are quite a few in the area so it may be a coincidence but it did make me wonder if RB could have been showing Marion some of his old haunts...

That’s excellent work, Sussex Sleuth. I think the Lodge is probably one of the buildings by the roadside. It seems to have been divided into two dwellings, an upstairs and a ground floor, flat.

 

[gymtonic]

I was going on the scenario re the luggage getting there before the flight you would be on in transit somewhere on the way for a few hours as suggested in the post i was reading , was i reading that wrong that the post said that the luggage would beat you there ?

Ah no, miscommunication ….the luggage would always travel on the same flight as the passenger (measures made even stronger after the Lockerbie disaster when someone checked in a suitcase with a bomb and didn’t board the plane). When I said it would transit straight through I meant that when you checked in for your flight from Brisbane to London (via wherever) without a stopover, the luggage would be checked through to the final destination and you would not have to collect it at the transit airport and recheck it.

 

[Roseberry]

Ah no, miscommunication ….the luggage would always travel on the same flight as the passenger (measures made even stronger after the Lockerbie disaster when someone checked in a suitcase with a bomb and didn’t board the plane). When I said it would transit straight through I meant that when you checked in for your flight from Brisbane to London (via wherever) without a stopover, the luggage would be checked through to the final destination and you would not have to collect it at the transit airport and recheck it.

The seminal point being, that as MB stated in her communications home, her luggage arrived in UK and was at some point stored away from her person. Then it was accessible by someone with a connected ID who could travel from continental Europe via ferry without a traceable passport, who could access her luggage and obtain her MB documents without her knowledge.

 

[centred]

Ah no, miscommunication ….the luggage would always travel on the same flight as the passenger (measures made even stronger after the Lockerbie disaster when someone checked in a suitcase with a bomb and didn’t board the plane). When I said it would transit straight through I meant that when you checked in for your flight from Brisbane to London (via wherever) without a stopover, the luggage would be checked through to the final destination and you would not have to collect it at the transit airport and recheck it.

Oh ok thanks sorry ..so what happens when you have a few hours stopover like in Japan for eg for a few hours or overnight , do you have to check out all your luggage and check it back in hours later ? I am assuming it is different planes ?

 

[Roseberry]

Oh ok thanks sorry ..so what happens when you have a few hours stopover like in Japan for eg for a few hours or overnight , do you have to check out all your luggage and check it back in hours later ? I am assuming it is different planes ?

No. Or only if you are booked different carriers with no codeshare in my experience at the time

 

[spangled]

Oh ok thanks sorry ..so what happens when you have a few hours stopover like in Japan for eg for a few hours or overnight , do you have to check out all your luggage and check it back in hours later ? I am assuming it is different planes ?

If depends. If it's a few hours you don't leave the airport and the baggage is transferred without you seeing it.

It would be rare for a connecting flight to need an overnight stay out of the airport, unless you wanted to do that specifically to break a long journey up. In that case, you would collect your luggage and check in the following day.

I have booked separate flights (rather than connecting) to save money before. That meant arriving in Beijing, collecting the luggage and having to re-check in immediately. It was absolutely not worth the dollars saved

 

[Eyespywithmylittleeye]

It is possible that Marion, after speaking to her Bank, decided to open the Barclays account as a back up, especially if RB had told her she didn’t need to take much as he was cashed up. He did this with JO? So they are stranded when he is bashed up and in hospital in another country. Even though she was love bombed, I think she was an independent woman, and may have opened the account without him knowing.

Which means he would return to Australia and drain the accounts with his accomplice, while Marion was stuck in England. I still think you have to be exceptionally ballsy to go into a bank day after day for weeks withdrawing $5000 each time though.

I think telling jo NOT to bring much cash is another modification.. Marion had money… the idea I think with Jo was knowing she would run out of money and be alone. Her cousin is why she got home.
So I think suggesting only minimal money was introduced for the second run of a very similar plan.
yes you do have to be ballsy if you are not the account holder withdrawing the funds.. but if you are the account holder ie: Marion returned to withdraw/move funds at his direction..