Australia Australia - Marion Barter, 51, missing after trip to UK, June 1997 #6

[caitlincurious]

I agree Tootsie, I thought he was very civil too. It all went pear-shaped at the front door of his home in Luxembourg when Sally said "So, I have - I found an ad that you put in the newspaper in Australia in northern NSW back in 1994 and I'm just wondering if you can tell me how long you were in Australia." They made a huge mistake with FR and they need to own it and make amends, and not just dismiss it with "ah well, it wasn't him." What happened to him was shocking. MOO

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  • "Politeness and respect hierarchy is very important in Luxembourg; never be disrespectful or rude, or you will lose all possible chances of succeeding in your business dealings."

I think it's sadly unlikely that the podcast will issue a proper apology to FR - despite the fact that he was not FR that lead has clearly been crucial to the investigation so far, and in their view, they could not have known for sure until they went and met him; also, that step is part of the reason police finally took it seriously. So although the poor real FR was harassed unnecessarily it did still play a role in this winding journey, which has collected many other victims as collateral

EDIT: Legally they might have to though - otherwise the guy could probably sue for defamation

 

[Belleandsebastian]

His names should be up in lights, flashing, His photos need to be in every corner. Police and Media need to step up now. The other victims might not even be alive.

Agreed.
I’m sure there’s MANY other victims. Hopefully some still alive who come out of the woodwork, but the sad thing is that there could be more ‘Marions’ who didn’t have someone fighting for them who have just been forgotten.

 

[Itsapuzzle]

Totally agree. I know a guy who is a long haul pilot for a major airline and the first thing he does when he lands is changes into his "civvies". He's not driving round picking up boxes in his uniform. I agree with others that this guy has clearly listened to the podcast right from the start and has constructed his evidence to fit in with that narrative and try to implicate someone else. As far as I remember the pilot had been traced and spoken to - didn't want to appear on the podcast - but certainly ruled out any relationship between himself an Marion.

Excellent points - and he had his white cap on to boot! Perfect attire for moving boxes, totally agree.

 

[Itsapuzzle]

They have the flight manifests so it's not going to be too difficult to see if Marion was travelling with this tall naval man or pilot, he'd be sitting next to her - err, unless he was in the cockpit on each occasion. H'mm.

 

[Estelle]

I would edit this because we've already had a warning on here about posting the names of the family (even if she is listed on court docs).


We do know that some of her luggage was left at the airport and was later unaccounted for, so possibly someone else removed the luggage on her behalf. Or she did collect it and took it back with her on her return flight to Aus. We don't know.

The only way leaving luggage at an airport makes sense to me is if her documents were in there and he told her that they would be safer there as they could be stolen otherwise. Were her documents in the locker to which he had the key?

 

[Eyespywithmylittleeye]

The difference between the latest case we've heard from and Marion's that intrigues me the most is the selling of the houses. In both cases, obtaining the property or money from the sale seems to be a huge part of the scam, but with PO she was hesitant about selling and therefore had not done so prior to their trip to England. This led to him suggesting the whole power of attorney situation, stealing the deeds, and abandoning her in Europe (only to have to give the deeds back and steal them again). I think, had she not realised something was wrong and returned so soon afterwards, he would have tried to sell the deed to her house whilst she was away.

With Marion, however, things played out differently. We know she had already sold the house (potentially at his suggestion) meaning that the money was already in the bank. Following the logic of the above case, why then go overseas? Did he PLAN to do something criminal to her and therefore hope to buy some time with the family regarding her absence? Marion already had a strained relationship with her family, so (my speculation) it probably wouldn't have been too hard for a pro of this kind to create estrangement between them instead if that was his sole intention.
I think it's more likely that the trip overseas served another purpose. Marion had told her family that she was going to England for an extended period, one far longer than the time she in actual fact spent there. This leads me to believe that he intended for her to stay there for a while, come back, and try to do something with her funds either solo or with an accomplice.
The fact that Marion then returned only a few days later suggests to me that she knew something was wrong and followed to check up on things/protect her assets. Whether she withdrew the money herself knowing he could access it, was somehow convinced by him to do so, or someone else impersonating her (less likely imo) withdrew the funds is up in the air.
What happened to her after this is anyone's guess, but I think something went wrong with his plan, just as it did with PO in a different way.

(No idea if this makes any sense. My thoughts are so scattered with this case right now because the possibilities, whilst now somewhat more concrete, have actually become even greater.)

I think it makes sense.

here’s a another theory… sells house yes at his suggestion… changes name to FNMR as the plan OS is to ‘marry’ start a new life as Mr & Mrs. Meet up in Japan travel to UK together..
Something happens….a problem of some sort.. So returns home.. he arrives a few days later.. assures everything is fine.. they are starting their life together as planned and convinces $ withdrawals until account is empty..

Passenger return card does suggest by handwriting it is MB… I know it’s a bit left if field.. but maybe married OS??

Money not stolen from account simply withdrawn and handed over with free will to her ‘husband’ …. As for what followed…after that..

 

[vivienbee]

Also I meant JO, not PO in my post - I was just not 100% with it and now it won't let me edit.

 

[Estelle]

Thus far, Marion going to Switzerland has NEVER been mentioned. Sally was able to get a lot of passenger cards through FOI from Marion's previous travel in and out of Aus and Switzerland wasn't on there. If she did go to Switzerland, she might not have gone directly from Aus. Could still be true. Google search reveals soccer camps are often held in Switzerland.

I'm just as interested to know the reason he gives inquest as to why HE was at a soccer camp's hotel lobby. Is he also a soccer player (those shin surgery scars)? He also has a boxer's nose. Can you imagine if he reveals himself to be THE REAL Fernand Remakel and the other is a fake

As for MB's artwork, this has been discussed many times during the past 6 threads and 3 years. Just a few pages back, someone posted a refresher image of some of the major works. Lord Flimsy posted it, I think. There's also a search bar on the top right where you can filter to just this thread.

Could Marion have gone without Johnny on a tour of Switzerland from England without him? I can't imagine Marion being unfaithful to Johnny at that time. If RB and Marion met there, perhaps he told them that he was going to Australia so she gave him a way of contacting them? RB seems to do a lot of research on his potential victims. He knew about JO's settlement, for example. I wonder if Marion was always in his sight or if their later connections were just a coincidence.

 

[KiwiNZ]

would not getting control of the house and selling it leave a better paper trail for the police, then getting the victim to cash up themselves as he did with Marion ?

To sell JO's house using a POA and title deeds, the children would figure it out, there would be lawyers and estate agents involved, according to JO she wasn't asked to hide their relationship, and he would still have been in the same circle as her Ex-husband via the coin collecting, I feel like there is way to many people who knew of him, could ID him ... I really don't know where he was going with this, maybe he didn't either and in the end gave up. ?

 

[Belleandsebastian]

would not getting control of the house and selling it leave a better paper trail for the police, then getting the victim to cash up themselves as he did with Marion ?

To sell JO's house using a POA and title deeds, the children would figure it out, there would be lawyers and estate agents involved, according to JO she wasn't asked to hide their relationship, and he would still have been in the same circle as her Ex-husband via the coin collecting, I feel like there is way to many people who knew of him, could ID him ... I really don't know where he was going with this, maybe he didn't either and in the end gave up. ?

True, but due to the fact that he had the fake identities I guess he could disappear in a puff of smoke and go overseas for a few years/move to a different location in the hopes that no-one would find him.

 

[roland625]

Curious how an 83 year old finds the podcast? Is he googling her name? I know that channel 7 did a couple of stories promoting the podcast so maybe he saw them?

 

[MrsWattle]

Curious how an 83 year old finds the podcast? Is he googling her name? I know that channel 7 did a couple of stories promoting the podcast so maybe he saw them?

His family would be showing him everything and teaching him. Did police do a search of his computer search history! And mobile phone trace, Tech savvy IT family or friends, PC lessons for seniors maybe? There is a helpful group in Northern Rivers.

 

[Estelle]

I would edit this because we've already had a warning on here about posting the names of the family (even if she is listed on court docs).

We do know that some of her luggage was left at the airport and was later unaccounted for, so possibly someone else removed the luggage on her behalf. Or she did collect it and took it back with her on her return flight to Aus. We don't know.

What I would like to know is whether JO's documents were placed with his things in the locker at the airport for safe keeping and only he had the key? The summer clothes she put in there would not have been of much value IMO so she would not have gone back there to pick them up even if she did have a key. I have assumed JO flew from Heathrow to Australia directly. For the Power of Attorney to work for him, JO had to be alive and out of Australia for some time. He knew she didn't have enough money to pay for her return flight home so he had to leave her stranded at her cousin's house until he sold her property - hence he paid for her one way fare. This whole trip IMO was about getting JO out of Australia. He probably planned it from when he heard she was getting the property settlement.

 

[MrsWattle]

Marion mentioned Amsterdam, and JO said he was very familiar at Amsterdam airport. The only things I can think of is drug traffickers, identification theft, or stolen artwork, coin, jewelry black market trade. The auctioneers might know him? He used other people's ID to trade. (Edited victims initials)

 

[Estelle]

The difference between the latest case we've heard from and Marion's that intrigues me the most is the selling of the houses. In both cases, obtaining the property or money from the sale seems to be a huge part of the scam, but with PO she was hesitant about selling and therefore had not done so prior to their trip to England. This led to him suggesting the whole power of attorney situation, stealing the deeds, and abandoning her in Europe (only to have to give the deeds back and steal them again). I think, had she not realised something was wrong and returned so soon afterwards, he would have tried to sell the deed to her house whilst she was away.

With Marion, however, things played out differently. We know she had already sold the house (potentially at his suggestion) meaning that the money was already in the bank. Following the logic of the above case, why then go overseas? Did he PLAN to do something criminal to her and therefore hope to buy some time with the family regarding her absence? Marion already had a strained relationship with her family, so (my speculation) it probably wouldn't have been too hard for a pro of this kind to create estrangement between them instead if that was his sole intention.
I think it's more likely that the trip overseas served another purpose. Marion had told her family that she was going to England for an extended period, one far longer than the time she in actual fact spent there. This leads me to believe that he intended for her to stay there for a while, come back, and try to do something with her funds either solo or with an accomplice.
The fact that Marion then returned only a few days later suggests to me that she knew something was wrong and followed to check up on things/protect her assets. Whether she withdrew the money herself knowing he could access it, was somehow convinced by him to do so, or someone else impersonating her (less likely imo) withdrew the funds is up in the air.
What happened to her after this is anyone's guess, but I think something went wrong with his plan, just as it did with PO in a different way.

(No idea if this makes any sense. My thoughts are so scattered with this case right now because the possibilities, whilst now somewhat more concrete, have actually become even greater.)

Did Marion only buy a one way ticket?

 

[Belleandsebastian]

Marion mentioned Amsterdam, and PO said he was very familiar at Amsterdam airport. The only things I can think of is drug traffickers, identification theft, or stolen artwork, coin, jewelry black market trade. The auctioneers might know him? He must used other people's ID to trade.

This is a great point. His photo should be circulated amongst the auctioneers/coin traders/art sellers, etc. Someone is sure to recognise him and it might reveal more.

 

[Laughing]

This is a great point. His photo should be circulated amongst the auctioneers/coin traders/art sellers, etc. Someone is sure to recognise him and it might reveal more.

Does Australia have Senior Centers? In the US, the Senior Centers offer card games, exercise classes, and lunch. Seems to me that other victims would be in the senior citizen age category?

Show his pictures, and the announcer ought to point out there is no need for embarrassment if you recognize him because he conned you, too!

jmho ymmv lrr

 

[MrsWattle]

Solicitors and probate office also need to run all his aliases through the systems to see if he has fraudulently become Power of Attorney or a random beneficiary (inheritance). Marion or Florabella could have made him her beneficiary or he could have used manipulation.

 

[TootsieFootsie]

We don't know that he did, that's yet to be determined.

would not getting control of the house and selling it leave a better paper trail for the police, then getting the victim to cash up themselves as he did with Marion ?

 

[Estelle]

I think it makes sense.

here’s a another theory… sells house yes at his suggestion… changes name to FNMR as the plan OS is to ‘marry’ start a new life as Mr & Mrs. Meet up in Japan travel to UK together..
Something happens….a problem of some sort.. So returns home.. he arrives a few days later.. assures everything is fine.. they are starting their life together as planned and convinces $ withdrawals until account is empty..

Passenger return card does suggest by handwriting it is MB… I know it’s a bit left if field.. but maybe married OS??

Money not stolen from account simply withdrawn and handed over with free will to her ‘husband’ …. As for what followed…after that..

Perhaps RB then disappears, Marion is so devastated as she has nothing now so she jumps over cliff (or is pushed) and her body has never been found.