Australia Australia - Marion Barter, 51, missing after trip to UK, June 1997 #6

[KiwiNZ]

True, but due to the fact that he had the fake identities I guess he could disappear in a puff of smoke and go overseas for a few years/move to a different location in the hopes that no-one would find him.

I think the connection to coin colleting would be his downfall, I am sure alot of people knew his face and knew of him, I would thinks it is a pretty clicky community and hard to remove yourself when it's also your hobbie and income, kind of high risk I would think. However having gotten away with Marion, and probably a lot of others he probably became more brazen and feeling more invincible, with every con.

 

[TootsieFootsie]

People of all ages use the internet, it has been around for quite a long time now.
Most of the over 70s I know are well up on using the internet. Some now 80 years old have been using it since the mid 90s.

Curious how an 83 year old finds the podcast? Is he googling her name? I know that channel 7 did a couple of stories promoting the podcast so maybe he saw them?

 

[KiwiNZ]

Did Marion only buy a one way ticket?

I think the fact she flew back on a different airline to that she left on, would lead me to believe she left on a one way ? Normally you have a round ticket and can bring forward the return flight if you had to.

Or if she had to come back at really short notice maybe she just bough one rather than changing her original ticket.

My guess is it was one way, after listen to JO

 

[Deleted member 249471]

Could Marion have gone without Johnny on a tour of Switzerland from England without him? I can't imagine Marion being unfaithful to Johnny at that time. If RB and Marion met there, perhaps he told them that he was going to Australia so she gave him a way of contacting them? RB seems to do a lot of research on his potential victims. He knew about JO's settlement, for example. I wonder if Marion was always in his sight or if their later connections were just a coincidence.

RB said Marion was in Switzerland with Johnny for a soccer camp. Google search says soccer camps are often held in Switzerland. RB says they met at the lobby of hotel.

Question:
What reason will he give as to why he was there? Was he an fellow soccer player? Is he claiming to be the real Fernand? Or is this where he stole Fernand's id?

Personally, I believe RB needs to establish he met Marion long ago so as to explain why things moved so quickly between them. So it doesn't look as though he targeted her but that there was time and substance to their connection. My hunch is he will claim Marion was obsessed with him and followed him. This way, it isn't HIS fault.

Remember that he lied about JO. She said he called out of the blue once she was divorced. He said he ran into her on street and that is what started the affair. His pattern of defence revolves around denying he targets women... and lies to imply the relationships are truly random and romantic. He also can't say he met Marion at the arts centre or we'll know for sure he was the man in car, so he's saying SHE placed an ad and found him. Again, pushing that it's all Marion's doing. IMO

 

[Feronia]

Was it not Marion who came back to Australia, but a look alike, who had stolen her purse to begin with.


In that case I believe something happened to Marion overseas.

If it was her who came back, maybe she got suspicious of something, came back earlier than the other person planned and tried to get all her money out of the bank, because she'd grown suspicious of the other person and realised that somehow they might be able to access her money, having stolen all her ID etc.
And then something happened to her here, in Australia before she had a chance to get the police involved or had a chance to contact family.

I’m leaning more towards your second scenario, she got suspicious and returned earlier. Maybe at that point she chose to disappear on her own terms... sometimes I even consider if she might be still alive somewhere? I know it’s far fetched, but this case is so full of surprises!

 

[TootsieFootsie]

My thinking is that she would have either taken her best clothes for the trip or bought something new.
If it was me, I would have wanted to get them back.

When we talk about a few summer clothes, we're not seeing them in a personal way ourselves, but to a person possibly starting a new life with someone, I imagine those clothes felt very special to her, she would have wanted them back.

The summer clothes she put in there would not have been of much value IMO so she would not have gone back there to pick them up even if she did have a key. I have assumed JO flew from Heathrow to Australia directly.

 

[KiwiNZ]

We don't know that he did, that's yet to be determined.

KiwiNZ said: ↑
would not getting control of the house and selling it leave a better paper trail for the police, then getting the victim to cash up themselves as he did with Marion ?

I assume he didn't since JO still lives there lol... sorry I meant if that was his plan was it not high risk compared to just getting them to sell it themselves and then stealing the cash. Selling someone's house involves a lot of face to face contact and paper work etc.. it sounds like a high risk idea to me.

But I think in the end he felt invincible, he has gotten away with alot !!!

 

[Estelle]

I think it makes sense.

here’s a another theory… sells house yes at his suggestion… changes name to FNMR as the plan OS is to ‘marry’ start a new life as Mr & Mrs. Meet up in Japan travel to UK together..
Something happens….a problem of some sort.. So returns home.. he arrives a few days later.. assures everything is fine.. they are starting their life together as planned and convinces $ withdrawals until account is empty..

Passenger return card does suggest by handwriting it is MB… I know it’s a bit left if field.. but maybe married OS??

Money not stolen from account simply withdrawn and handed over with free will to her ‘husband’ …. As for what followed…after that..

However, leaving money in your bank account is safer unless you have something to buy with it. I find it difficult to think of a reason for RB to tell Marion to go to the bank every day to withdraw cash until nothing is left. What did she think she was going to do with the money? Take the cash overseas when she could have done a bank transfer?

 

[TootsieFootsie]

Perhaps he began using the internet when he was much younger, say around 1994 when the internet started becoming popular.

Being into coin auctions and things like that I can see those type of people being early internet users and perhaps even using the world wide web to place ads in newsgroups and bulletin boards before the internet proper came to be

His family would be showing him everything and teaching him. Did police do a search of his computer search history! And mobile phone trace, Tech savvy IT family or friends, PC lessons for seniors maybe? There is a helpful group in Northern Rivers.

 

[TootsieFootsie]

No I meant it's not determined that he did that with Marion. Ie in your post you mentioned the words "as he did with Marion"
And I was saying that we don't know that's what he did. We have yet to find out.

I assume he didn't since JO still lives there lol.

 

[KiwiNZ]

Perhaps he began using the internet when he was much younger, say around 1994 when the internet started becoming popular.

good point, the internet would be vital for him and his despicable trade as a con man, he was probably using it long before most, the internet is a scammers dream

 

[TootsieFootsie]

Yes we do have Senior Centres and that is a good idea.

Does Australia have Senior Centers? In the US, the Senior Centers offer card games, exercise classes, and lunch. Seems to me that other victims would be in the senior citizen age category?

 

[Eyespywithmylittleeye]

However, leaving money in your bank account is safer unless you have something to buy with it. I find it difficult to think of a reason for RB to tell Marion to go to the bank every day to withdraw cash until nothing is left. What did she think she was going to do with the money? Take the cash overseas when she could have done a bank transfer?

True… perhaps the plan was always to return and be together? Maybe move cash into joint account ? Remakel? Or an account in a different name by the man of many names? A lump sum transfer easier to trace? Cash withdrawal not so??

 

[Estelle]

I was a bit confused over the JO situation - the lawyers ask her if was actually a POA and not a will that she signed - she didn't seem to know - do you think they may have evidence that it was a will. ? If so to claim he would need the death certificate, so murder without a body wouldn't be an option but to claim she would have to die.

I don't think Marion would have excluded her children in a will, therefore liquidating her assets was a better option - but do you think he changed tack was that all to hard ? because at some stage he would have known that the family ( sally and her GF) had contacted the police and they knew about the money because they either contacted Marion or her imposter to verify her identity. Was that all to much of a close call for him ?

sorry random thoughts

With JO, he couldn't even forge a death certificate in England if she was still alive so he needed JO alive, stranded for months in England and to use the P o A saying that she needed him to sell her property but she was in England and ill and they wanted to buy a house on the French Riviera.

With Marion, IMO RB thought he had gotten away with it once her identity was verified and Sally was told that she was safe and well but didn't want contact.

 

[Estelle]

Upon more thought, I am really starting to suspect he DID have a female accomplice.

Storing suitcases
RB made JO do it in Amsterdam and Marion did it in Heathrow.

In the past we discussed the possibility of Marion being used as a mule, but making her leave her bags behind for an accomplice to use is very feasible.

We know RB made JO keep her summer clothes in it (it was winter in Europe and summer in Aus), he made her use a bag he provided, and he placed a bag of his own in it. Perhaps this contained money, fake IDs, valuables, instructions, house keys?

The blonde connection
We've discussed this before... when FNMR ad was published on 10 Dec 1994, there was another ad by a women, which seemed odd because she was in France posting in an Aus paper: "French, 50 years old, blonde, blue eyed, 1.52m, slim, youthful looking, love healthy and simple life, seek sober man speaking French or having French interests. Write to Marie Llimos, 221 Fontaines Ave, Wallace-St-Pierre, 84500."

In addition, after the last podcast before inquest began, we discussed the possible sighting of a man and blonde woman Marion MIGHT have been seen with in England. As well as a postcard revealing Marion made a friend called Maz. We discussed the potential of all these things being connected. To add to this theory, RB suggested JO go blonde for her new passport photo.

Rencontres in Le Courier Australien
While going though all the rencontres, I noticed they sometimes come in twos, one from a man and one from a woman. Could this have been a way for the accomplices with no fixed addresses or mobile phones to communicate? To let each other know where they were and how to contact each other?

Fax machine
Both victims/witnesses said RB immediately bought a fax machine. What was he using this for? His fraud activities? Communicating with an accomplice?

I don't know. I could be WAY off. It's just the theory I am entertaining right now. At the very least, I feel he was leaving suitcases behind for someone else to pick up and use.

So who is this potential blonde who travelled extensively and also had multiple aliases? Was she also scamming or was she a victim he manipulated and dragged along everywhere (like in The Puppet Master)?

It will be very interesting to hear and see DdH at the inquest.

I have always suspected that RB had a female accomplice to fly back as Marion to Australia. But in this case, she would have dyed her hair black.

 

[Estelle]

My thinking is that she would have either taken her best clothes for the trip or bought something new.
If it was me, I would have wanted to get them back.

When we talk about a few summer clothes, we're not seeing them in a personal way ourselves, but to a person possibly starting a new life with someone, I imagine those clothes felt very special to her, she would have wanted them back.

But the train or airfare to go back to Amsterdam might have cost more at that time of year being near Christmas than the value of the summer clothes. You can always buy new clothes. She was also borrowing money from her cousin so the airfare back to Australia would have been expensive enough at Christmas.

The only reason I would have gone back to Amsterdam airport would have been to retrieve my documents if they were there. However, I think her cousin suspected foul play so there was no time to waste.

 

[TootsieFootsie]

Unless her hair was already a dark colour. Maybe there was more than one accomplice.

I have always suspected that RB had a female accomplice to fly back as Marion to Australia. But in this case, she would have dyed her hair black.

 

[TootsieFootsie]

You can't always buy another the same as the favourite ones that you chose for this very special trip with your new love interest.

You can always buy new clothes.

 

[MrsWattle]

Did JO have the necessary receipt or key to retrieve her luggage at the airport? I doubt he gave her that

 

[sunnynz]

From Ancestry

1977

Australia, Electoral Rolls, 1903-1980
Name
Frederick de Hedervery
Electoral Date
1977
Electoral Place
Bondi Beach, Phillip, New South Wales, Australia
Residence Address
0 1303 Old South Head Rd
Add Additional Information

He listed occupation as artist

1980

Australia, Electoral Rolls, 1903-1980
Name
Frederick David De Hedervary
Gender
Male
Electoral Date
1980
Electoral Place
Rose Bay, Wentworth, New South Wales, Australia

Occupation listed as photographer

I might be wrong but it looks like that 1977 address is a cemetery??Google Maps