Australia Australia - Marion Barter, 51, missing after trip to UK, June 1997 #6

[Carovb5]

Designing and conducting advertising and promotional campaigns for third parties through the various media is the translation?

That's right.

 

[Bibno]

I’ve caught up with the recordings of inquest now. I feel so sorry for JO, what an awful holiday she must have had. There is so much information to digest and think about, but some things jumped out at me.

Route to the UK
First, I cannot think of any reason why anybody destined for London would travel by the route they did. It seems incredibly suspicious to me.

Amsterdam >> Hook of Holland- train journey probably just under 2 hours,
Hook of Holland >> Harwich, UK. This is an overnight crossing. Harwich is really not an exciting or interesting tourist destination in any way.
Harwich >> Colchester to hire car 30 minute train journey. Why do this at all? It's easy to hire a car at Harwich.

alternative:

Flight Amsterdam >> London = 1hr 30 mins.

There is no sensible reason why anyone would use this route, unless they may have wanted to avoid detection. I think he may have not wanted to go through the immigration controls at a UK international Airport, hence arriving through a back door (ferry from Hook to Harwich). It would have been easy for him to slip through at Harwich.

Also for poor JO, to go from Harwich via Colchester to Dover -- really not the most exciting holiday. But it's a place where you can get across the channel to France very easily by ferry. There used to be a ferry from Dover to Zebrugge (Belgium) and I can't remember when it stopped, but I think the Channel Tunnel may have taken it's traffic away. He could have used the Channel Tunnel with a car from Folkestone (not far from Dover), but the Dover > Zebrugge ferry may still have been working then.

Suitcases at the Airport
I think it would have been very useful to have any clothes or other documents or items belonging to a victim. Maybe to help an accomplice look like the victim.

I was quite confused in the inquest with all the mispronunciation of the names of places. Oast Houses pronounced 'oost houses' and spelled out as O-u-s-t Houses. I had to really think about what he meant. Also Sussick for Sussex, and 'Tonbridge' Wells, and there were more. Maybe I'm being picky, but the way they were pronounced did not make any sense to me and I live near all these places.

 

[KiwiNZ]

Have just listened to the podcast and it's fairly clear the lawyer was trying to get Sally's evidence to show that the Belgian of many identities had been in the house. He couldn't have known about the layout of the house (which must be in his statement/interview) from the podcast because it hadn't been mentioned. Other things - like Owen being a mechanic, or Chris working at Seaworld - had been mentioned so I understood it as trying to separate the fact from the fiction.

I am sure we have the actual address of Marions property and could probably find the layout (?) and details, wonder if goggle maps makes it look like it has a laneway behind it ?

But I have no idea why he would lie about been in her house, but he seems to lie about absolutely everything which is obviously and issue for the police.

I don't get why he admitted to the fact he placed the ad, and knew Marion but claim not to remember victim 1, they must have enough evidence of him knowing Marion for him to admit to that or he has another convoluted plan that he thinks will get him out of it

 

[KiwiNZ]

I have been rereading a few things and on reading the change of name details by deed poll , it states from that point on you must only use the new name going forward and that includes all financial transactions etc so if that is the case would you not have too change your details re bank accounts etc ? My mother had a name change after divorce back to her mothers maiden name and i think all her accounts were now in her new name .

So i am guessing MB would have to have been withdrawing the money with her new name details and signatures ? did the bank have the record of the name change ?

It wasn't Marion they were dealing with any more , as she was now FNMR ?
Am I wrong / Could she withdraw and transfer under her old name after the change ?

I am guessing it wouldn't be that hard to keep on operating under your old name as only your passport would be revoked, not you drivers license and general ID needed for everyday life.

It looks like name change is all done on trust, trust that you have a genuine reason for the name change and not criminal, and you will just do the right thing. I think this is really naïve approach by governments and there doesn't seem to be any process in place to weed out the criminals using this as a tool ? just my observation

 

[StarrChance]

Thanks!

Apologies, definitely 13th July 1977.

 

[Itsapuzzle]

Have just listened to the podcast and it's fairly clear the lawyer was trying to get Sally's evidence to show that the Belgian of many identities had been in the house. He couldn't have known about the layout of the house (which must be in his statement/interview) from the podcast because it hadn't been mentioned. Other things - like Owen being a mechanic, or Chris working at Seaworld - had been mentioned so I understood it as trying to separate the fact from the fiction.

This is still online, it details the house layout and amenities. I can't see a pic of the bathroom, so maybe a description of that room would be the clincher. Marion bought the house in January 1994 and sold it in April 1997.
Trove - Archived webpage

 

[sunnynz]

Is it possible that anyone questioned about Marion’s disappearance or their Legal representatives could use the open pages on Websleuths to build a defence around some of our observations and finds? I know it’s been mentioned on here and the inquest seemed to be suggesting the Podcast might have been used in that way? What do the rest of you think?

Do you mean that they could say they found out info from here - or do you mean that the info shared here could compromise a trial because it would prejudice jurors etc?

 

[sunnynz]

This is still online, it details the house layout and amenities. I can't see a pic of the bathroom, so maybe a description of that room would be the clincher. Marion bought the house in January 1994 and sold it in April 1997.
Trove - Archived webpage

Had a look on google maps and it looks like there’s a path at the side of the house but I can’t see a laneway as such Google Maps

 

[Lord Peter Flimsy]

Do you mean that they could say they found out info from here - or do you mean that the info shared here could compromise a trial because it would prejudice jurors etc?

As this guy appears to be as slippery as an eel fine tuned over many decades I just wondered if he/they could craft a story around anything any of us might discover that is very incriminating and can be viewed outside of a private group chat?

 

[Itsapuzzle]

Is it possible that anyone questioned about Marion’s disappearance or their Legal representatives could use the open pages on Websleuths to build a defence around some of our observations and finds? I know it’s been mentioned on here and the inquest seemed to be suggesting the Podcast might have been used in that way? What do the rest of you think?

Not a chance. The ad, phone number, address, flights, previous victims, history, that's what it's all about. MOO

 

[Lord Peter Flimsy]

I’ve caught up with the recordings of inquest now. I feel so sorry for JO, what an awful holiday she must have had. There is so much information to digest and think about, but some things jumped out at me.

Route to the UK
First, I cannot think of any reason why anybody destined for London would travel by the route they did. It seems incredibly suspicious to me.

Amsterdam >> Hook of Holland- train journey probably just under 2 hours,
Hook of Holland >> Harwich, UK. This is an overnight crossing. Harwich is really not an exciting or interesting tourist destination in any way.
Harwich >> Colchester to hire car 30 minute train journey. Why do this at all? It's easy to hire a car at Harwich.

alternative:

Flight Amsterdam >> London = 1hr 30 mins.

There is no sensible reason why anyone would use this route, unless they may have wanted to avoid detection. I think he may have not wanted to go through the immigration controls at a UK international Airport, hence arriving through a back door (ferry from Hook to Harwich). It would have been easy for him to slip through at Harwich.

Also for poor JO, to go from Harwich via Colchester to Dover -- really not the most exciting holiday. But it's a place where you can get across the channel to France very easily by ferry. There used to be a ferry from Dover to Zebrugge (Belgium) and I can't remember when it stopped, but I think the Channel Tunnel may have taken it's traffic away. He could have used the Channel Tunnel with a car from Folkestone (not far from Dover), but the Dover > Zebrugge ferry may still have been working then.

Suitcases at the Airport
I think it would have been very useful to have any clothes or other documents or items belonging to a victim. Maybe to help an accomplice look like the victim.

I was quite confused in the inquest with all the mispronunciation of the names of places. Oast Houses pronounced 'oost houses' and spelled out as O-u-s-t Houses. I had to really think about what he meant. Also Sussick for Sussex, and 'Tonbridge' Wells, and there were more. Maybe I'm being picky, but the way they were pronounced did not make any sense to me and I live near all these places.

Did he hire a car or did he have a car awaiting him? I also believe JO did travel around Kent & Sussex and ended up in Dover. Shame she can’t remember any place names. So agree about some of the pronunciation. Did make me cringe. Saying that there are probably numerous Australian place names I would pronounce badly.

 

[ruby925]

So if MB bank accounts were in name of MB, and funds available to her from UK bank also were MB, the name change to FR may have meant she could not access her money when she was in UK. Her name change may have been problematic for the man of many names, so he changed his name before returning to Australia. MB returned also to drain all the bank accounts in the name of MB..but her new name could provide a link back to a man in Australia....
Even anecdotally, it seems there was always a name change to avoid being caught for a crime and Australia seemed to provide a place for laying low.
I have read everything but am overloaded with info... please delete if I have written anything that is not ok/outside of the rules.

 

[car54]

Sorry I’m no map expert but that sounds like a lane, or lane-like thing. Still don’t know what the significance of those questions were though

Had a look on google maps and it looks like there’s a path at the side of the house but I can’t see a laneway as such Google Maps

There is no lane. It's just a side passage typical of most houses. There is a school behind the property. Appears to be mainly bush behind the rear fence.

 

[Meligator]

Perhaps the investigators were able to link the phone number in the ad to RB. During the inquest, they mentioned they believed RB had a cell phone and asked the women if they saw him with a phone (all said no). The ad was in 1994. Maybe he stopped using phone at some point.

 

[StarrChance]

Thanks!

Apologies, definitely 13th July 1977.

These are my interpretations of RB's behaviour and comments based on Chinguetti's Timeline she gave us previously. If you have a different interpretation, please let me know.

NOTE THAT THEIR ALLEGED MARRIAGE OCCURRED THE DAY BEFORE ILONA LEFT FOR AUSTRALIA.

1969-05-10 alleged marriage date between Ilona Kinczel and Willy Wouters in Brussels
1969-05-11 Ilona flew to Australia

EVEN THOUGH NOW HE IS SUPPOSEDLY MARRIED, WW ARRIVED IN AUSTRALIA FROM LONDON TO PERTH FLYING QANTAS AND STATING NEVER MARRIED ON A THREE MONTH HOLIDAY VISA 13 DAYS AFTER ILONA GIVING AN ADDRESS IN SYDNEY WHICH WAS PROBABLY THE ADDRESS OF A RELATIVE OF ILONA'S WHERE THEY WERE GIVEN A ROOM. SO THEN FLEW TO SYDNEY ARRIVING TWO DAYS LATER.

1969-05-24 Willy Wouters, status Never Married flew Qantas from London to Perth on a three month holiday visa
1969-05-26 Willy Wouters residence 6 Godbell St, Paddington

SO THEN FIVE MONTHS LATER HAVING OVERSTAYED HIS HOLIDAY VISA, HE IS GRANTED AUSTRALIAN RESIDENT STATUS AS HE THEN CLAIMED HE WAS MARRIED TO ILONA. WAS THE MARRIAGE DOCUMENT FAKED?

1969-10-02 Willy Wouters granted resident status in Sydney due to alleged marriage to Ilona Kinczel

THEN FOUR MONTHS AFTER THEY HAD RESIDENT STATUS, THEY BOTH LEFT ON THE SAME FLIGHT TO BELGIUM WITH WILLY WOUTERS CLAIMING HE IS DIVORCED

1970-02-15 Ilona left Australia on UT2506 from Sydney to Belgium?
1970-02-15 Willy Wouters departed Australia on UT2506 to Belgium, status Divorced (2)

IF THEY WERE DIVORCED, WHY WOULD THEY TRAVEL ON THE SAME FLIGHT? SO DOES WILLY WOUTERS CHANGE HIS NAME TO M J REID IN HUNGARY AND THEY OFFICIALLY MARRY IN HUNGARY WITH FAMILY PRESENT? OR IS M J REID ANOTHER MAN? UNUSUAL NAME FOR A HUNGARIAN

1970 Ilona married in Budapest Hungary to MJR (Reid?)
1971 Ilona first child born (daughter ER)

NOW WILLY WOUTERS HAS CHANGED HIS NAME AND IS IN HUNGARY, POLICE CANNOT FIND HIM OR DID POLICE FIND HIM AND HE WENT TO PRISON?

1971-12-09 Willy Wouters Rouen France, 4 years prison
1972-11-16 Willy Wouters Lille France, 1 years prison (concurrent with previous sentence)
1973-01-23 Willy Wouters Fraud 1 years prison (concurrent with previous sentences)

1973 Ilona second child born (son CR)

MUST BE OUT OF PRISON BECAUSE HE GOES TO PRISON AGAIN FOR FOUR MONTHS

1974-01 Willy Wouters App Dousai "cheques without cover" 1 years prison
1974-05-21 Willy Wouters discharged from prison

DID WILLY WOUTERS RETURN TO AUSTRALIA USING A PASSPORT IN THE NAME OF M J REID ON A HOLIDAY VISA AGAIN BUT IT IS TWO YEARS BEFORE ILONA RETURNED SO DID HE ARRIVE IN 1976 WITH ILONA OR HAD THEY PARTED WAYS? MAYBE M J REID IS NOT HIM AFTER ALL. WERE ILONA AND HE EVER MARRIED? IS THERE A RECORD OF DIVORCE?

1974 Willy Wouters might have returned to Australia this year but no records can be found say immigration dept. If he did return then, the alleged marriage was over by then.
1976 Ilona arrives in Australia again (implied from death certificate) and lives in St Kilda, Victoria. I guess she arrived with her two children. Is MJR with her? A year later in July, 1977 she died. I wonder who looked after the children then?

NOW BECAUSE WILLY WOUTERS IS WANTED FOR ALL THESE CRIMES IN EUROPE, HE HAS TO CHANGE HIS NAME EIGHT DAYS BEFORE HE "MARRIES" AGAIN. HE CHOOSES A HUNGARIAN NAME AS HE HAS FOUND AN AUSTRALIAN WIFE SO HE CAN GET AUSTRALIAN CITIZENSHIP AGAIN FIVE WEEKS LATER AND AN AUSTRALIAN PASSPORT.

1976-02-12 Willy Wouters changes name to FD de Hedervary which is an Hungarian name.
1976-02-20 FD de Hedervary marries wife #2 Dianne
1976-02-23 FD de Hedervary applies for Australian citizenship
1976-03-25 FD de Hedervary Australian citizenship granted
1976-03-25 FD de Hedervary residence 303 old south head road, Bondi NSW
1976-03-25 FD de Hedervary Australian passport issued

1976-06 Willy Wouters false impersonation, Paris, 1 year sentence

FOUR MONTHS AFTER HE GETS HIS AUSTRALIA PASSPORT, HE TAKES HIS NEW WIFE OVERSEAS FOR EIGHT MONTHS NOT WORRYING ABOUT HIS WILLY WOUTERS CHARGES AS HE HAS A NEW NAME SO COMMITS THE CRIMES IN THE NAME OF WILLY WOUTERS

1976-07-28 FD and Dianne depart Australia
1976-09-30 to 1977-01-24 Willy Wouters financial frauds in Brugges, Brussels and several other towns (3)
1977-03-17 FD and Dianne return to Australia

HE RETURNS TO AUSTRALIA FOR FIVE DAYS AND HE DEPARTS AGAIN WITHOUT HIS WIFE COMMITTING FRAUD IN BELGIUM IN THE NAME OF WILLY WOUTERS. NOT SURE WHEN HE RETURNED. IT APPEARS THAT HE WAS OUT OF AUSTRALIA WHEN ILONA DIED.

1977-03-22 FD departs Australia again
1977-05-31 to 1978-09-01 Various frauds in Belgium
1977-07-13 Ilona died, St Kilda, Victoria of Mycardial ischaemia (heart), The Coroner at Melbourne Mr H.W. Pascoe ordered burial of the body without inquest.
1978-03 Willy Wouters Tournai forgery 3 or 5 years prison (3)

HAVE THEY BEEN OVERSEAS ALL THIS TIME TOGETHER AS THEY ARE NOW RETURNING TO AUSTRALIA SO MAYBE THEY LEFT TOGETHER LAST TIME? NOW THEY SETTLE DOWN AND LIVE AT VAUCLUSE, SYDNEY IN AN APARTMENT AND HAVE A SON EIGHT MONTHS LATER. DID THEY RENT OR BUY IT?

1978-08-13 FD and Dianne return to Australia from Belgium, address 5/48 Towns Road, Vaucluse, Sydney
1979-04-02 FD and Dianne child 1 born in Sydney

WHEN SON IS TEN MONTHS OLD, HE GOES TO BELGIUM AGAIN ALONE AND WHEN SON IS ONE YEAR OLD, WIFE AND SON FLY TO AMSTERDAM AND STAY FOR NINE MONTHS
1980-02-06 FD departs Australia for Belgium
1980-04-23 Dianna and child 1 depart Australia for Amsterdam
1980-01-21 Dianna and child return to Australia

FD GETS A GERMAN PASSPORT. HOW DID HE GET THAT AS HE HAS NEVER LIVED IN GERMANY? HIS WIFE AND SON MUST HAVE FLOWN OVER THERE AGAIN AS THEY HAVE A DAUGHTER BORN IN LUXEMBOURG FIFTEEN MONTHS AFTER WIFE RETURNED FROM EUROPE BEFORE.

1981-04-02 FDs new passport issued Bonn (Germany?)
1981-04-17 FD and Dianne child 2 born in Luxembourg
1981-06-17 FD registered for birth abroad, address 22 Rue des Muguets, Luxembourg
1981-11-18 FD returns to Australia

THEY RETURN TO AUSTRALIA EIGHT MONTHS AFTER DAUGHTER WAS BORN AND THREE WEEKS LATER FD DEPARTS AGAIN FOR BRUSSELS

1981-12-04 FD departs Australia for Brussels

FOUR YEARS LATER, FD MUST BE HOME AGAIN AS HE GETS A DRIVERS LICENCE HERE AND HE MUST RETURN TO EUROPE AGAIN AND THEN RETURN A YEAR LATER.

1985-01-29 NSW drivers license issued to Chaim Frederic David Dehedervary, 4/6A Rangers Ave Cremorne 2090 (1)
1986-01-02 FD returns to Australia, residence Ye old Passy, Hazel Road, Tamborine Qld 4270

EIGHT MONTHS LATER FD DEPARTS AGAIN AND RETURNS A MONTH LATER MOVING TO QUEENSLAND IN 1986.

1986-09 FD departs Australia
1986-10-06 FD returns to Australia FDs residence 17 Linning St, Warren Park Qld

FD MOTHER DIED IN 1990 IN BELGIUM

1990-2-12 Maria Coppenole died (Willy David Wouters’ mother) Tournai, Hainaut (B), aged 76 years old Piqueuse

1997 MARION BARTER DISAPPEARED

To be continued....

Fantastic timeline!

Good find with FD being out of the country when Ilona died. Interestingly there is MJR in the NAA with four entries, status is not open however all four seem connected with immigration from 1968 onwards and recently added between 2018 to present.

 

[Laughing]

Perhaps the investigators were able to link the phone number in the ad to RB. During the inquest, they mentioned they believed RB had a cell phone and asked the women if they saw him with a phone (all said no). The ad was in 1994. Maybe he stopped using phone at some point.

Cell phone in 1994??? In the USA in 1994, a cell phone looked like this:




image from youtube.com

My Dad had one -- actually bolted to the floor of his truck. Referred to as a 'brick phone' because it was as heavy as a brick, and took up more space. Memorable, to me anyway.

No idea what was available in your hemisphere, of course!

jmho ymmv lrr

 

[Belleandsebastian]

I am guessing it wouldn't be that hard to keep on operating under your old name as only your passport would be revoked, not you drivers license and general ID needed for everyday life.

It looks like name change is all done on trust, trust that you have a genuine reason for the name change and not criminal, and you will just do the right thing. I think this is really naïve approach by governments and there doesn't seem to be any process in place to weed out the criminals using this as a tool ? just my observation

I went to change one of my son’s middle names when he was little, and I’m sure I read on the BDM site that you can only change it up to three times in your life now. Maybe they’ve tightened it up a bit?

 

[Itsapuzzle]

The pilot that Marion was said to be fond of, he worked for Cathay Pacific at the time, is that right? Have been looking at their uniforms from back in the day and they appear to have a dark cap, not white. Qantas appear to have had white caps. Can anyone confirm?

 

[Eyespywithmylittleeye]

With regards to RB's handwriting... the circle above his i's... it may be a 'girlish teen' thing to do in Australia but he is foreign. Perhaps it's a clue as to where he is originally from or has been?

I know WW is supposed to be a French speaking Belgian. But who knows who he really is, and it's not the type of accent used in France. A rounded accent is more commonly used in Denmark, Norway and Sweden. It's also used in Moroccan Arabic. And he did use the alias of Roger Lauzoney from Morocco.

At the inquest there was reference to him possibly being an Algerian man. And they speak a mix of Arabic and French there, so... ?

My father was an immigrant from Italy also circled above his ‘I’s interestingly is a passengers card for wife with obviously different hand writing.. also circles above ‘I’ on her name. So I tend to think it’s a European thing.. however that doesn’t explain 2nd wife’s ‘I’s as she was born here.

 

[Eyespywithmylittleeye]

I went to change one of my son’s middle names when he was little, and I’m sure I read on the BDM site that you can only change it up to three times in your life now. Maybe they’ve tightened it up a bit?

Correct in NSW that’s law.. but I can’t seem to find if that’s the case for qld. All I can find is it can only be changed once a year in qld.. but no maximum or limit as to how many.