Australia Australia - Marion Barter, 51, missing after trip to UK, June 1997 #6

[Lokii]

Thanks Loki that makes sense , i think i was over thinking the complications i was imagining reading all the frauds and name changes from "him " with many names
And to add the same initials i think from memory , I figure there has to be a reason for this

Something else that just came to mind is I think that for someone to legally change their name they have to apply to the state they were actually born in.
Again, that’s in QLD so I’m not sure about other locations.

Edited - the below is taken from the QLD BD&M website.. Is this the same in other states/countries?

You can apply to change your name with us if you were:

• born or adopted in Queensland
• born or adopted overseas and have resided in Queensland for the past 12 months (and currently live here)

 

[chinguetti]

RB was born Willy David Wouters.

I think I found his birth name ----> Willy DAVID.
Someone on this site posted a link to a genealogy website. I cant find the post, but credit belongs to that person. Family tree of André WOUTERS


1905-12-13 Desire Jean-Pierre Joseph David born Gelinden, Limburg, Belgique
1913-10-17 Maria Coppenolle born Ramegnies-Chin, Hainaut, Belgique
1939-07-09? Willy David born in Tournai, Belgium, to Desire Jean-Pierre Joseph David and Maria Coppenolle
1943-03-17 Desire Jean-Pierre Joseph David dies at Tournai, Belgium while FD was an infant
????-??-?? Andre Wouters marries? Maria Coppenolle
????-??-?? FD adopts the family name of his stepfather Willy David Wouters

 

[Lokii]

I think I found his birth name ----> Willy DAVID.
Someone on this site posted a link to a genealogy website. I cant find the post, but credit belongs to that person. Family tree of André WOUTERS


1905-12-13 Desire Jean-Pierre Joseph David born Gelinden, Limburg, Belgique
1913-10-17 Maria Coppenolle born Ramegnies-Chin, Hainaut, Belgique
1939-07-09? Willy David born in Tournai, Belgium, to Desire Jean-Pierre Joseph David and Maria Coppenolle
1943-03-17 Desire Jean-Pierre Joseph David dies at Tournai, Belgium while FD was an infant
????-??-?? Andre Wouters marries? Maria Coppenolle
????-??-?? FD adopts the family name of his stepfather Willy David Wouters

Is this the same family..
Lot 1627 - World Gold Coins - Sale 126 - Noble Numismatics

 

[centred]

Something else that just came to mind is I think that for someone to legally change their name they have to apply to the state they were actually born in.
Again, that’s in QLD so I’m not sure about other locations.

Edited - the below is taken from the QLD BD&M website.. Is this the same in other states/countries?

You can apply to change your name with us if you were:

• born or adopted in Queensland
• born or adopted overseas and have resided in Queensland for the past 12 months (and currently live here)

I think just glancing they are different criteria for marriage etc

Changing your family name after marriage, separation or divorce

I will check out NSW tomorrow

 

[centred]

Is this the same family..
Lot 1627 - World Gold Coins - Sale 126 - Noble Numismatics

Well done to you both ..nice connection i followed someones coin lot but went no where for me ,
that bloodline makes so much sense doesn't it ?

 

[chinguetti]

Is this the same family..
Lot 1627 - World Gold Coins - Sale 126 - Noble Numismatics

acquired by grandfather (died 1949) by succession then to the current collector's grandmother, Maria Coppenolle de Froyennes (died 1990).

I think its probably related.
Maria Coppenolle Deceased 12 February 1990. Tournai, Hainaut, Belgium.
The collector says this is his grandmother, so the collector is presumably one of FDs children.

 

[Lokii]

Well done to you both ..nice connection i followed someones coin lot but went no where for me ,
that bloodline makes so much sense doesn't it ?

Certainly makes a lot of sense! According to the blurb on the link I posted, it’s Maria’s grandchild posting those coins for sale. I wonder whose child? RB’s? The mind boggles.

 

[centred]

Certainly makes a lot of sense! According to the blurb on the link I posted, it’s Maria’s grandchild posting those coins for sale. I wonder whose child? RB’s? The mind boggles.

Yes i had thought and posted he may have had family connections in Europe going back and forth
the mind does boggle , I wonder if he inherited them in the early 90 s when his mother died ?

 

[TootsieFootsie]

What a tangled web.

 

[centred]

What a tangled web.

you couldn't make it up eh ? Oh what a tangled web you do weave when you practice to deceive

 

[centred]

Yes i had thought and posted he may have had family connections in Europe going back and forth
the mind does boggle , I wonder if he inherited them in the early 90 s when his mother died ?

come to think of it grandmother Maria Coppenolle probably bequeathed to the grandchildren
i dare say he could not be trusted with the proceeds

 

[Estelle]

These are my interpretations of RB's behaviour and comments based on Chinguetti's Timeline she gave us previously. If you have a different interpretation, please let me know.

NOTE THAT THEIR ALLEGED MARRIAGE OCCURRED THE DAY BEFORE ILONA LEFT FOR AUSTRALIA.

1969-05-10 alleged marriage date between Ilona Kinczel and Willy Wouters in Brussels
1969-05-11 Ilona flew to Australia

EVEN THOUGH NOW HE IS SUPPOSEDLY MARRIED, WW ARRIVED IN AUSTRALIA FROM LONDON TO PERTH FLYING QANTAS AND STATING NEVER MARRIED ON A THREE MONTH HOLIDAY VISA 13 DAYS AFTER ILONA GIVING AN ADDRESS IN SYDNEY WHICH WAS PROBABLY THE ADDRESS OF A RELATIVE OF ILONA'S WHERE THEY WERE GIVEN A ROOM. SO THEN FLEW TO SYDNEY ARRIVING TWO DAYS LATER.

1969-05-24 Willy Wouters, status Never Married flew Qantas from London to Perth on a three month holiday visa
1969-05-26 Willy Wouters residence 6 Godbell St, Paddington

SO THEN FIVE MONTHS LATER HAVING OVERSTAYED HIS HOLIDAY VISA, HE IS GRANTED AUSTRALIAN RESIDENT STATUS AS HE THEN CLAIMED HE WAS MARRIED TO ILONA. WAS THE MARRIAGE DOCUMENT FAKED?

1969-10-02 Willy Wouters granted resident status in Sydney due to alleged marriage to Ilona Kinczel

THEN FOUR MONTHS AFTER THEY HAD RESIDENT STATUS, THEY BOTH LEFT ON THE SAME FLIGHT TO BELGIUM WITH WILLY WOUTERS CLAIMING HE IS DIVORCED

1970-02-15 Ilona left Australia on UT2506 from Sydney to Belgium?
1970-02-15 Willy Wouters departed Australia on UT2506 to Belgium, status Divorced (2)

IF THEY WERE DIVORCED, WHY WOULD THEY TRAVEL ON THE SAME FLIGHT? SO DOES WILLY WOUTERS CHANGE HIS NAME TO M J REID IN HUNGARY AND THEY OFFICIALLY MARRY IN HUNGARY WITH FAMILY PRESENT? OR IS M J REID ANOTHER MAN? UNUSUAL NAME FOR A HUNGARIAN

1970 Ilona married in Budapest Hungary to MJR (Reid?)
1971 Ilona first child born (daughter ER)

NOW WILLY WOUTERS HAS CHANGED HIS NAME AND IS IN HUNGARY, POLICE CANNOT FIND HIM OR DID POLICE FIND HIM AND HE WENT TO PRISON?

1971-12-09 Willy Wouters Rouen France, 4 years prison
1972-11-16 Willy Wouters Lille France, 1 years prison (concurrent with previous sentence)
1973-01-23 Willy Wouters Fraud 1 years prison (concurrent with previous sentences)

1973 Ilona second child born (son CR)

MUST BE OUT OF PRISON BECAUSE HE GOES TO PRISON AGAIN FOR FOUR MONTHS

1974-01 Willy Wouters App Dousai "cheques without cover" 1 years prison
1974-05-21 Willy Wouters discharged from prison

DID WILLY WOUTERS RETURN TO AUSTRALIA USING A PASSPORT IN THE NAME OF M J REID ON A HOLIDAY VISA AGAIN BUT IT IS TWO YEARS BEFORE ILONA RETURNED SO DID HE ARRIVE IN 1976 WITH ILONA OR HAD THEY PARTED WAYS? MAYBE M J REID IS NOT HIM AFTER ALL. WERE ILONA AND HE EVER MARRIED? IS THERE A RECORD OF DIVORCE?

1974 Willy Wouters might have returned to Australia this year but no records can be found say immigration dept. If he did return then, the alleged marriage was over by then.
1976 Ilona arrives in Australia again (implied from death certificate) and lives in St Kilda, Victoria. I guess she arrived with her two children. Is MJR with her? A year later in July, 1977 she died. I wonder who looked after the children then?

NOW BECAUSE WILLY WOUTERS IS WANTED FOR ALL THESE CRIMES IN EUROPE, HE HAS TO CHANGE HIS NAME EIGHT DAYS BEFORE HE "MARRIES" AGAIN. HE CHOOSES A HUNGARIAN NAME AS HE HAS FOUND AN AUSTRALIAN WIFE SO HE CAN GET AUSTRALIAN CITIZENSHIP AGAIN FIVE WEEKS LATER AND AN AUSTRALIAN PASSPORT.

1976-02-12 Willy Wouters changes name to FD de Hedervary which is an Hungarian name.
1976-02-20 FD de Hedervary marries wife #2 Dianne
1976-02-23 FD de Hedervary applies for Australian citizenship
1976-03-25 FD de Hedervary Australian citizenship granted
1976-03-25 FD de Hedervary residence 303 old south head road, Bondi NSW
1976-03-25 FD de Hedervary Australian passport issued

1976-06 Willy Wouters false impersonation, Paris, 1 year sentence

FOUR MONTHS AFTER HE GETS HIS AUSTRALIA PASSPORT, HE TAKES HIS NEW WIFE OVERSEAS FOR EIGHT MONTHS NOT WORRYING ABOUT HIS WILLY WOUTERS CHARGES AS HE HAS A NEW NAME SO COMMITS THE CRIMES IN THE NAME OF WILLY WOUTERS

1976-07-28 FD and Dianne depart Australia
1976-09-30 to 1977-01-24 Willy Wouters financial frauds in Brugges, Brussels and several other towns (3)
1977-03-17 FD and Dianne return to Australia

HE RETURNS TO AUSTRALIA FOR FIVE DAYS AND HE DEPARTS AGAIN WITHOUT HIS WIFE COMMITTING FRAUD IN BELGIUM IN THE NAME OF WILLY WOUTERS. NOT SURE WHEN HE RETURNED. IT APPEARS THAT HE WAS OUT OF AUSTRALIA WHEN ILONA DIED.

1977-03-22 FD departs Australia again
1977-05-31 to 1978-09-01 Various frauds in Belgium
1977-07-13 Ilona died, St Kilda, Victoria of Mycardial ischaemia (heart), The Coroner at Melbourne Mr H.W. Pascoe ordered burial of the body without inquest.
1978-03 Willy Wouters Tournai forgery 3 or 5 years prison (3)

HAVE THEY BEEN OVERSEAS ALL THIS TIME TOGETHER AS THEY ARE NOW RETURNING TO AUSTRALIA SO MAYBE THEY LEFT TOGETHER LAST TIME? NOW THEY SETTLE DOWN AND LIVE AT VAUCLUSE, SYDNEY IN AN APARTMENT AND HAVE A SON EIGHT MONTHS LATER. DID THEY RENT OR BUY IT?

1978-08-13 FD and Dianne return to Australia from Belgium, address 5/48 Towns Road, Vaucluse, Sydney
1979-04-02 FD and Dianne child 1 born in Sydney

WHEN SON IS TEN MONTHS OLD, HE GOES TO BELGIUM AGAIN ALONE AND WHEN SON IS ONE YEAR OLD, WIFE AND SON FLY TO AMSTERDAM AND STAY FOR NINE MONTHS
1980-02-06 FD departs Australia for Belgium
1980-04-23 Dianna and child 1 depart Australia for Amsterdam
1980-01-21 Dianna and child return to Australia

FD GETS A GERMAN PASSPORT. HOW DID HE GET THAT AS HE HAS NEVER LIVED IN GERMANY? HIS WIFE AND SON MUST HAVE FLOWN OVER THERE AGAIN AS THEY HAVE A DAUGHTER BORN IN LUXEMBOURG FIFTEEN MONTHS AFTER WIFE RETURNED FROM EUROPE BEFORE.

1981-04-02 FDs new passport issued Bonn (Germany?)
1981-04-17 FD and Dianne child 2 born in Luxembourg
1981-06-17 FD registered for birth abroad, address 22 Rue des Muguets, Luxembourg
1981-11-18 FD returns to Australia

THEY RETURN TO AUSTRALIA EIGHT MONTHS AFTER DAUGHTER WAS BORN AND THREE WEEKS LATER FD DEPARTS AGAIN FOR BRUSSELS

1981-12-04 FD departs Australia for Brussels

FOUR YEARS LATER, FD MUST BE HOME AGAIN AS HE GETS A DRIVERS LICENCE HERE AND HE MUST RETURN TO EUROPE AGAIN AND THEN RETURN A YEAR LATER.

1985-01-29 NSW drivers license issued to Chaim Frederic David Dehedervary, 4/6A Rangers Ave Cremorne 2090 (1)
1986-01-02 FD returns to Australia, residence Ye old Passy, Hazel Road, Tamborine Qld 4270

EIGHT MONTHS LATER FD DEPARTS AGAIN AND RETURNS A MONTH LATER MOVING TO QUEENSLAND IN 1986.

1986-09 FD departs Australia
1986-10-06 FD returns to Australia FDs residence 17 Linning St, Warren Park Qld

FD MOTHER DIED IN 1990 IN BELGIUM

1990-2-12 Maria Coppenole died (Willy David Wouters’ mother) Tournai, Hainaut (B), aged 76 years old Piqueuse

1997 MARION BARTER DISAPPEARED

To be continued....

 

[Lokii]

Have just stumbled across two social media profiles. Found the first one as she is also from Tournei, the same place RB was born.
I didn’t see anything much on that one until I noticed the same surname on her friends list, clicked that profile and the resemblance to RB’s photo cannot be mistaken. It’s like looking at a younger version of him.
Edit - I’m aware I can’t post the link so hopefully this is ok?
Google the words maria coppenolle tournei. The first search result for me was a FB profile of a female from Tournei. I went to that profile, in her friends list is a male with the same surname. His profile hasn’t been used since 2015, but he has another profile which is in his friends list. The photos of him on that new profile, spitting image of RB, particularly around the eyes. Fb surname is Vancoppenolle.

 

[Carovb5]

I think I found his birth name ----> Willy DAVID.
Someone on this site posted a link to a genealogy website. I cant find the post, but credit belongs to that person. Family tree of André WOUTERS


1905-12-13 Desire Jean-Pierre Joseph David born Gelinden, Limburg, Belgique
1913-10-17 Maria Coppenolle born Ramegnies-Chin, Hainaut, Belgique
1939-07-09? Willy David born in Tournai, Belgium, to Desire Jean-Pierre Joseph David and Maria Coppenolle
1943-03-17 Desire Jean-Pierre Joseph David dies at Tournai, Belgium while FD was an infant
????-??-?? Andre Wouters marries? Maria Coppenolle
????-??-?? FD adopts the family name of his stepfather Willy David Wouters

That was me, sometimes it helps looking thinks up in the language of that land, in this case dutch. I can translate things when needed…

 

[Estelle]

DBM

 

[Lokii]

I think you can post it. Otherwise say something like PLEASE MODS DELETE IF NOT APPROPRIATE.

I edited the post with steps of how to find it if anyone wants to look.
He’s 58.

 

[centred]

In QLD, if someone changes their name legally via the Births, Deaths & Marriages office, they can also choose to have an amended birth certificate issued to them along with the change of name certificate. The amended birth certificate shows no mention of the original birth name. I don’t know if that happens in other states and countries too?
With an amended birth certificate one wouldn’t even have to produce the change of name certificate when opening up new bank accounts etc, they’d use the change of name certificate to obtain some photo ID in the new name and then that along with the amended birth certificate would allow them to create a whole new identity without people knowing they weren’t actually ever known by any other name! Crazy.

So when the police rang the bank would the bank have told the police that Marion had a new name at the time of withdrawing then ?

Because the bank must of known this regardless of practice and if they did i am guessing the bank cannot allow police to let family know these details re privacy etc .

And surely the bank didn't tell any fibs to cover up any facts of mistakenly given funds to the wrong person

 

[chinguetti]

FD GETS A GERMAN PASSPORT. HOW DID HE GET THAT AS HE HAS NEVER LIVED IN GERMANY?
HE RETURNS TO AUSTRALIA FOR FIVE DAYS AND HE DEPARTS AGAIN WITHOUT HIS WIFE COMMITTING FRAUD IN BELGIUM IN THE NAME OF WILLY WOUTERS. NOT SURE WHEN HE RETURNED. IT APPEARS THAT HE WAS OUT OF AUSTRALIA WHEN ILONA DIED.

Actually it was an Australian Passport issued in Bonn, not a German passport.
I think he was probably in Aus when Ilona died. There is some delay between when he leaves Europe and the police are finished dealing with with his crime spree.

 

[chinguetti]

come to think of it grandmother Maria Coppenolle probably bequeathed to the grandchildren
i dare say he could not be trusted with the proceeds

Given his extensive crime record, I think its more likely he stole these coins and made a fake story of provenance. The buyer should be careful.

 

[Estelle]

Actually it was an Australian Passport issued in Bonn, not a German passport.
I think he was probably in Aus when Ilona died. There is some delay between when he leaves Europe and the police are finished dealing with with his crime spree.

You are probably correct. I had never heard that you could apply for an Australian passport in Germany. I assumed that it had to be a Commonwealth country. But we do have an Australian Embassy there. But I wonder why Germany? Maybe wherever he was did not have an Australian Embassy.

Do you think he married Ilona in Hungary under the name of MJR or was that another man as Reid is an English name?