Australia Australia - Marion Barter, 51, missing after trip to UK, June 1997 #6

[KiwiNZ]

Sorry I’m no map expert but that sounds like a lane, or lane-like thing. Still don’t know what the significance of those questions were though

because RB said he had been to Marion's house and this is how he describe it, the lawyer was asking Sally to confirm if the way he described it was correct, and if it anything had been referred to in the podcast. Ie: had he really been to Marion's house or is he using information from the podcast, or even if information from the podcast to help locate the details of the house.

 

[KiwiNZ]

View digital copy
"a) in Roulers, in the judiciary of Courtran, between 1 September 1976 and 31 March 1977, a forged die carrying the inscription Ye Old Passy - Australia Tamborine Queensland". I dont understand how this could be a crime....

used as part of a crime I guess - I assume it is like a stamp and he would be using it as part of his cheque fraud.

 

[Carovb5]

Is there a picture of him?

 

[chinguetti]

I downloaded the death certificate

Do you have the date of Ilonas death?

I am building a timeline. Blum was overseas from 1977-03-22 until 1978-08-13. I know Ilona died in 1978 but I dont know the date.

1939-07-09 Willy Wouters born in Belgium, Tournai to Abel Wouters and Maria COppenolle
1945-01-02 Alias "Lauzoney, Roger" birthdate
1946-05-11 Ilona born of Josef Kinczel and Elizabeth Novonty in Budapest, Hungary
1946-05 to 1957-01(?) Ilona residence Antal Janos Octca, 10 Budapest XI, Hungary
1957 Ilona arrived in Belgium with parents from Hungary
1957-01 to 1958 Ilona residence Oveuue Beau Se Jour Veele (?)
1958 to 1960 Ilona residence at 155 Chaussea de Wavre Bruxelles 5
1960 to 1964 Ilona residence 48, Rue Waguberg, IX elles, olce 64 a ea Jour
1965-04-05 to 1969-10-17 Willy Wouters fraud and other crimes Tournai, Brussles, Charleroi, Leuven, Brugge, Waremme
1965-06-18 to 1967-02-15 Ilona worked as apprentise hairdresser but did not complete
1968-08-19 Ilona Australia visa certificate of conduct
1968-12-13 Ilona residence at 155 CRoussoo de Wavre Bruxelles 5
1969-03-07 Ilona correspondence address Overijse 15 Avenue Henri Conscience
1969-04-16 Ilona residence at 46, rue des Francs, Etterbeek
1969-05-10 alleged marriage date between Ilona Reid and Willy Wouters in Brussels
1969-05-11 Ilona flew to australia
1969-05-24 Willy Wouters arrived in perth, status Married
1969-05-26 Willy Wouters residence Godbell St, 6, Paddington
1969-10-02 Willy Wouters granted resident status in sydney
1970-02-15 Ilona left commonwealth of Australia on UT2506 from Sydney to Belgium?
1970-02-15 Willy Wouters departed Australia on UT2506 to Belgium, status Divorced (2)
1970 Ilona married in Budapest Hungary to MJR (Reid?)
1971 Ilona first child born (daughter ER)
1971-12-09 Willy Wouters Rouen France, 4 years prison
1972-11-16 Willy Wouters Lille France, 1 years prison (concurrent with previous sentance)
1973-01-23 Willy Wouters Fraud 1 years prison (concurrent with previous sentances)
1973 Ilona second child born (son CR)
1974-01 Willy Wouters App Dousai "checks without cover" 1 years prison
1974-05-21 Willy Wouters discharged from prison
1974 Willy Wouters might have returned to Australia this year but no records can be found say immigration dept
1976 Ilona arrives in Australia again (implied from death certificate)
1976-02-12 Willy Wouters changes name to FD de Hedervary
1976-02-20 FD de Hedervary marries wife #2 Dianne
1976-02-23 FD de Hedervary applies for Australian citizenship
1976-03-25 FD de Hedervary Australian citizenship granted
1976-03-25 FD de Hedervary residence 303 old south head road, bondi NSW
1976-03-25 FD de Hedervary Australian passport issued
1976-06 Willy Wouters false impersonation, Paris, 1 year sentance
1976-07-28 FD and Dianne depart Australia
1976-09-30 to 1977-01-24 Willy Wouters financial frauds in Brugges, Brussels and several other towns (3)
1977-03-17 FD and Dianne return to Australia
1977-03-22 FD departs Australia again
1977-05-31 to 1978-09-01 Various frauds in Belgium
1978-03 Willy Wouters Tournai forgery 3 or 5 years prison (3)
1978-08-13 FD and Dianne return to Australia from Belgium, address 5/48 Towns Road, Vaulcuse
1978 Ilona died, St Kilda, Victoria of Mycardial ischaemia (heart), The Coroner at Melbourne Mr H.W. Pascoe ordered burial of the body without inquest.
1979-04-02 FD and Dianne child 1 born in Sydney
1980-02-06 FD departs Australia for Belgium
1980-04-23 Dianna and child 1 depart Australia for Amsterdam
1980-01-21 Dianna and child return to Australia
1981-04-02 FDs new passport issued Bonn (Germany?)
1981-04-17 FD and Dianne child 2 born in Luxemburg
1981-06-17 FD registered for birth broad, address 22 Rue des Muguets, Luxembourg
1981-11-18 FD returns to Australia
1981-12-04 FD departs Australia for Brussels
1985-01-29 NSW drivers license issued to Chaim Frederic David Dehedervary, 4/6A rangers av, cremone 2090 (1)
1986-01-02 FD returns to Australia, after 6 years absence, residence ye old Passy, Hazel Road, Tamborene Qld 4270
1986-09 FD departs Australia
1986-10-06 FD returns to Australia
1986-10-06 FDs residence 17 Linning St, Warren Park Qld

 

[LouLouSleuth]

I am currently most of the way through a postgraduate degree in family history / genealogy

You can do a Post-Grad in genealogy? Where do I sign up?! How fascinating

 

[chinguetti]

Did Marion visit Tonbridge or Tunbridge Wells or both?

Definitely Tunbridge Wells, not sure about Tonbridge.

 

[Belleandsebastian]

Do you have the date of Ilonas death?

I am building a timeline. Blum was overseas from 1977-03-22 until 1978-08-13. I know Ilona died in 1978 but I dont know the date.

1939-07-09 Willy Wouters born in Belgium, Tournai to Abel Wouters and Maria COppenolle
1945-01-02 Alias "Lauzoney, Roger" birthdate
1946-05-11 Ilona born of Josef Kinczel and Elizabeth Novonty in Budapest, Hungary
1946-05 to 1957-01(?) Ilona residence Antal Janos Octca, 10 Budapest XI, Hungary
1957 Ilona arrived in Belgium with parents from Hungary
1957-01 to 1958 Ilona residence Oveuue Beau Se Jour Veele (?)
1958 to 1960 Ilona residence at 155 Chaussea de Wavre Bruxelles 5
1960 to 1964 Ilona residence 48, Rue Waguberg, IX elles, olce 64 a ea Jour
1965-04-05 to 1969-10-17 Willy Wouters fraud and other crimes Tournai, Brussles, Charleroi, Leuven, Brugge, Waremme
1965-06-18 to 1967-02-15 Ilona worked as apprentise hairdresser but did not complete
1968-08-19 Ilona Australia visa certificate of conduct
1968-12-13 Ilona residence at 155 CRoussoo de Wavre Bruxelles 5
1969-10-02 Willy Wouters granted resident status in sydney
1969-03-07 Ilona correspondence address Overijse 15 Avenue Henri Conscience
1969-04-16 Ilona residence at 46, rue des Francs, Etterbeek
1969-05-11 Ilona flew to australia
1969-05-24 Willy Wouters arrived in perth, status Married
1969-05-10 alleged marriage date between Ilona Reid and Willy Wouters in Brussels
1969-05-26 Willy Wouters residence Godbell St, 6, Paddington
1970-02-15 Ilona left commonwealth of Australia on UT2506 from Sydney to Belgium?
1970-02-15 Willy Wouters departed Australia on UT2506 to Belgium, status Divorced (2)
1970 Ilona married in Budapest Hungary to MJR (Reid?)
1971 Ilona first child born (daughter ER)
1971-12-09 Willy Wouters Rouen France, 4 years prison
1972-11-16 Willy Wouters Lille France, 1 years prison (concurrent with previous sentance)
1973-01-23 Willy Wouters Fraud 1 years prison (concurrent with previous sentances)
1973 Ilona second child born (son CR)
1974-01 Willy Wouters App Dousai "checks without cover" 1 years prison
1974-05-21 Willy Wouters discharged from prison
1974 Willy Wouters might have returned to Australia this year but no records can be found say immigration dept
1976 Ilona arrives in Australia again (implied from death certificate)
1976-02-12 Willy Wouters changes name to David de Hedervary
1976-02-20 David de Hedervary marries wife #2 Dianne
1976-02-23 David de Hedervary applies for Australian citizenship
1976-03-25 David de Hedervary Australian citizenship granted
1976-03-25 David de Hedervary residence 303 old south head road, bondi NSW
1976-03-25 David de Hedervary Australian passport issued
1976-06 Willy Wouters false impersonation, Paris, 1 year sentance
1976-07-28 David and Dianne depart Australia
1976-09-30 to 1977-01-24 Willy Wouters financial frauds in Brugges, Brussels and several other towns (3)
1977-03-17 David and Dianne return to Australia
1977-03-22 David departs Australia again
1977-05-31 to 1978-09-01 Various frauds in Belgium
1978-03 Willy Wouters Tournai forgery 3 or 5 years prison (3)
1978-08-13 David and Dianne return to Australia from Belgium, address 5/48 Towns Road, Vaulcuse
1978 Ilona died, St Kilda, Victoria of Mycardial ischaemia (heart), The Coroner at Melbourne Mr H.W. Pascoe ordered burial of the body without inquest.
1979-04-02 David and Dianne child 1 born in Sydney
1980-02-06 David departs Australia for Belgium
1980-04-23 Dianna and child 1 depart Australia for Amsterdam
1980-01-21 Dianna and child return to Australia
1981-04-02 Davids new passport issued Bonn (Germany?)
1981-04-17 David and Dianne child 2 born in Luxemburg
1981-06-17 David registered for birth broad, address 22 Rue des Muguets, Luxembourg
1981-11-18 David returns to Australia
1981-12-04 David departs Australia for Brussels
1985-01-29 NSW drivers license issued to Chaim Frederic David Dehedervary, 4/6A rangers av, cremone 2090 (1)
1986-01-02 David returns to Australia, after 6 years absence, residence ye old Passy, Hazel Road, Tamborene Qld 4270
1986-09 David departs Australia
1986-10-06 David returns to Australia
1986-10-06 Davids residence 17 Linning St, Warren Park Qld

Very interesting. Thanks for putting this together. Hang on though, was he called David at one point or is that a mistake? So confusing with all the name changes.

 

[chinguetti]

Very interesting. Thanks for putting this together. Hang on though, was he called David at one point or is that a mistake? So confusing with all the name changes.

De Hedervary, Frederick David. I changed to "FD"....

 

[Estelle]

Also i think it cannot be shown he has left Australia as the archives notes suggest that he didnt leave as him if that makes sense ....quite a juggler to have to evade authorities but obviously he was not perfect at it because he did spend time in jail and was caught many times but not here it seems

Yes WW overstayed his three months holiday visa when he first arrived in Australia so, as far as records are concerned, WW is still here. He also put that he was never married on his arrival form.

 

[Estelle]

Yes... I’m wondering if the kids were his. Even if they weren’t, maybe they should be interviewed too as they might know something that could help.

Had he changed his name from WW to MJR before those children were born? Or was this a different man? Is there any reference to a divorce between WW and IW?

 

[Estelle]

On the post it doesnt say when she passed away at 23 years or i missed it ?

She passed away at 31yo.

 

[hoodunnit]

How old was she when she migrated to Australia as wife of WW?

23 years old.

 

[StarrChance]

Do you have the date of Ilonas death?

I am building a timeline. Blum was overseas from 1977-03-22 until 1978-08-13. I know Ilona died in 1978 but I dont know the date.

1939-07-09 Willy Wouters born in Belgium, Tournai to Abel Wouters and Maria COppenolle
1945-01-02 Alias "Lauzoney, Roger" birthdate
1946-05-11 Ilona born of Josef Kinczel and Elizabeth Novonty in Budapest, Hungary
1946-05 to 1957-01(?) Ilona residence Antal Janos Octca, 10 Budapest XI, Hungary
1957 Ilona arrived in Belgium with parents from Hungary
1957-01 to 1958 Ilona residence Oveuue Beau Se Jour Veele (?)
1958 to 1960 Ilona residence at 155 Chaussea de Wavre Bruxelles 5
1960 to 1964 Ilona residence 48, Rue Waguberg, IX elles, olce 64 a ea Jour
1965-04-05 to 1969-10-17 Willy Wouters fraud and other crimes Tournai, Brussles, Charleroi, Leuven, Brugge, Waremme
1965-06-18 to 1967-02-15 Ilona worked as apprentise hairdresser but did not complete
1968-08-19 Ilona Australia visa certificate of conduct
1968-12-13 Ilona residence at 155 CRoussoo de Wavre Bruxelles 5
1969-03-07 Ilona correspondence address Overijse 15 Avenue Henri Conscience
1969-04-16 Ilona residence at 46, rue des Francs, Etterbeek
1969-05-10 alleged marriage date between Ilona Reid and Willy Wouters in Brussels
1969-05-11 Ilona flew to australia
1969-05-24 Willy Wouters arrived in perth, status Married
1969-05-26 Willy Wouters residence Godbell St, 6, Paddington
1969-10-02 Willy Wouters granted resident status in sydney
1970-02-15 Ilona left commonwealth of Australia on UT2506 from Sydney to Belgium?
1970-02-15 Willy Wouters departed Australia on UT2506 to Belgium, status Divorced (2)
1970 Ilona married in Budapest Hungary to MJR (Reid?)
1971 Ilona first child born (daughter ER)
1971-12-09 Willy Wouters Rouen France, 4 years prison
1972-11-16 Willy Wouters Lille France, 1 years prison (concurrent with previous sentance)
1973-01-23 Willy Wouters Fraud 1 years prison (concurrent with previous sentances)
1973 Ilona second child born (son CR)
1974-01 Willy Wouters App Dousai "checks without cover" 1 years prison
1974-05-21 Willy Wouters discharged from prison
1974 Willy Wouters might have returned to Australia this year but no records can be found say immigration dept
1976 Ilona arrives in Australia again (implied from death certificate)
1976-02-12 Willy Wouters changes name to FD de Hedervary
1976-02-20 FD de Hedervary marries wife #2 Dianne
1976-02-23 FD de Hedervary applies for Australian citizenship
1976-03-25 FD de Hedervary Australian citizenship granted
1976-03-25 FD de Hedervary residence 303 old south head road, bondi NSW
1976-03-25 FD de Hedervary Australian passport issued
1976-06 Willy Wouters false impersonation, Paris, 1 year sentance
1976-07-28 FD and Dianne depart Australia
1976-09-30 to 1977-01-24 Willy Wouters financial frauds in Brugges, Brussels and several other towns (3)
1977-03-17 FD and Dianne return to Australia
1977-03-22 FD departs Australia again
1977-05-31 to 1978-09-01 Various frauds in Belgium
1978-03 Willy Wouters Tournai forgery 3 or 5 years prison (3)
1978-08-13 FD and Dianne return to Australia from Belgium, address 5/48 Towns Road, Vaulcuse
1978 Ilona died, St Kilda, Victoria of Mycardial ischaemia (heart), The Coroner at Melbourne Mr H.W. Pascoe ordered burial of the body without inquest.
1979-04-02 FD and Dianne child 1 born in Sydney
1980-02-06 FD departs Australia for Belgium
1980-04-23 Dianna and child 1 depart Australia for Amsterdam
1980-01-21 Dianna and child return to Australia
1981-04-02 FDs new passport issued Bonn (Germany?)
1981-04-17 FD and Dianne child 2 born in Luxemburg
1981-06-17 FD registered for birth broad, address 22 Rue des Muguets, Luxembourg
1981-11-18 FD returns to Australia
1981-12-04 FD departs Australia for Brussels
1985-01-29 NSW drivers license issued to Chaim Frederic David Dehedervary, 4/6A rangers av, cremone 2090 (1)
1986-01-02 FD returns to Australia, after 6 years absence, residence ye old Passy, Hazel Road, Tamborene Qld 4270
1986-09 FD departs Australia
1986-10-06 FD returns to Australia
1986-10-06 FDs residence 17 Linning St, Warren Park Qld

Great timeline

Ilona dod is 13 July 1997

Should this be Ilona Kinczel

1969-05-10 alleged marriage date between Ilona Reid and Willy Wouters in Brussels

 

[Estelle]

Sorry I’m no map expert but that sounds like a lane, or lane-like thing. Still don’t know what the significance of those questions were though

He had to prove he had been there perhaps?

 

[Lokii]

Not sure if this has been posted, but it’s the 7 news story that talks about JO’s evidence. I was please to hear a bit of a happy ending for her, she met someone else and it seems like she’s had a pretty good life after all the RB/FDH/RW drama.

Thank you for posting this. I hadn’t seen it before now and it’s nice to see JO happy and relaxed. It’s good to know she was able to move on and find happiness after the disruption he caused to her life.

 

[Belleandsebastian]

Thank you for posting this. I hadn’t seen it before now and it’s nice to see JO happy and relaxed. It’s good to know she was able to move on and find happiness after the disruption he caused to her life.

Yes, I was pretty happy to see her doing well too! So much sadness with this case at times. I’m glad she found someone and moved on.

 

[Lokii]

Yes, I was pretty happy to see her doing well too! So much sadness with this case at times. I’m glad she found someone and moved on.

Yes, so much sadness. My heart went out to her and also to GGB when she was speaking too. He’s a coward.

 

[Carovb5]

Do you have the date of Ilonas death?

I am building a timeline. Blum was overseas from 1977-03-22 until 1978-08-13. I know Ilona died in 1978 but I dont know the date.

1939-07-09 Willy Wouters born in Belgium, Tournai to Abel Wouters and Maria COppenolle
1945-01-02 Alias "Lauzoney, Roger" birthdate
1946-05-11 Ilona born of Josef Kinczel and Elizabeth Novonty in Budapest, Hungary
1946-05 to 1957-01(?) Ilona residence Antal Janos Octca, 10 Budapest XI, Hungary
1957 Ilona arrived in Belgium with parents from Hungary
1957-01 to 1958 Ilona residence Oveuue Beau Se Jour Veele (?)
1958 to 1960 Ilona residence at 155 Chaussea de Wavre Bruxelles 5
1960 to 1964 Ilona residence 48, Rue Waguberg, IX elles, olce 64 a ea Jour
1965-04-05 to 1969-10-17 Willy Wouters fraud and other crimes Tournai, Brussles, Charleroi, Leuven, Brugge, Waremme
1965-06-18 to 1967-02-15 Ilona worked as apprentise hairdresser but did not complete
1968-08-19 Ilona Australia visa certificate of conduct
1968-12-13 Ilona residence at 155 CRoussoo de Wavre Bruxelles 5
1969-03-07 Ilona correspondence address Overijse 15 Avenue Henri Conscience
1969-04-16 Ilona residence at 46, rue des Francs, Etterbeek
1969-05-10 alleged marriage date between Ilona Reid and Willy Wouters in Brussels
1969-05-11 Ilona flew to australia
1969-05-24 Willy Wouters arrived in perth, status Married
1969-05-26 Willy Wouters residence Godbell St, 6, Paddington
1969-10-02 Willy Wouters granted resident status in sydney
1970-02-15 Ilona left commonwealth of Australia on UT2506 from Sydney to Belgium?
1970-02-15 Willy Wouters departed Australia on UT2506 to Belgium, status Divorced (2)
1970 Ilona married in Budapest Hungary to MJR (Reid?)
1971 Ilona first child born (daughter ER)
1971-12-09 Willy Wouters Rouen France, 4 years prison
1972-11-16 Willy Wouters Lille France, 1 years prison (concurrent with previous sentance)
1973-01-23 Willy Wouters Fraud 1 years prison (concurrent with previous sentances)
1973 Ilona second child born (son CR)
1974-01 Willy Wouters App Dousai "checks without cover" 1 years prison
1974-05-21 Willy Wouters discharged from prison
1974 Willy Wouters might have returned to Australia this year but no records can be found say immigration dept
1976 Ilona arrives in Australia again (implied from death certificate)
1976-02-12 Willy Wouters changes name to FD de Hedervary
1976-02-20 FD de Hedervary marries wife #2 Dianne
1976-02-23 FD de Hedervary applies for Australian citizenship
1976-03-25 FD de Hedervary Australian citizenship granted
1976-03-25 FD de Hedervary residence 303 old south head road, bondi NSW
1976-03-25 FD de Hedervary Australian passport issued
1976-06 Willy Wouters false impersonation, Paris, 1 year sentance
1976-07-28 FD and Dianne depart Australia
1976-09-30 to 1977-01-24 Willy Wouters financial frauds in Brugges, Brussels and several other towns (3)
1977-03-17 FD and Dianne return to Australia
1977-03-22 FD departs Australia again
1977-05-31 to 1978-09-01 Various frauds in Belgium
1978-03 Willy Wouters Tournai forgery 3 or 5 years prison (3)
1978-08-13 FD and Dianne return to Australia from Belgium, address 5/48 Towns Road, Vaulcuse
1978 Ilona died, St Kilda, Victoria of Mycardial ischaemia (heart), The Coroner at Melbourne Mr H.W. Pascoe ordered burial of the body without inquest.
1979-04-02 FD and Dianne child 1 born in Sydney
1980-02-06 FD departs Australia for Belgium
1980-04-23 Dianna and child 1 depart Australia for Amsterdam
1980-01-21 Dianna and child return to Australia
1981-04-02 FDs new passport issued Bonn (Germany?)
1981-04-17 FD and Dianne child 2 born in Luxemburg
1981-06-17 FD registered for birth broad, address 22 Rue des Muguets, Luxembourg
1981-11-18 FD returns to Australia
1981-12-04 FD departs Australia for Brussels
1985-01-29 NSW drivers license issued to Chaim Frederic David Dehedervary, 4/6A rangers av, cremone 2090 (1)
1986-01-02 FD returns to Australia, after 6 years absence, residence ye old Passy, Hazel Road, Tamborene Qld 4270
1986-09 FD departs Australia
1986-10-06 FD returns to Australia
1986-10-06 FDs residence 17 Linning St, Warren Park Qld

I don’t know if this helps: just found this:
Family tree of Maria Coppenolle

 

[MrsWattle]

Widdle Willy Wouters.
Passport photo. 1986

 

[Estelle]

Yes, I was pretty happy to see her doing well too! So much sadness with this case at times. I’m glad she found someone and moved on.

She now has blonde hair!