Australia Australia - Marion Barter, 51, missing after trip to UK, June 1997 #6

[MrsWattle]

Is there a picture of him?

. 1986 passport

 

[Estelle]

View attachment 332762

Passport photo once of current RB.

 

[Lord Peter Flimsy]

Definitely Tunbridge Wells, not sure about Tonbridge.

Do you have the date of Ilonas death?

I am building a timeline. Blum was overseas from 1977-03-22 until 1978-08-13. I know Ilona died in 1978 but I dont know the date.

1939-07-09 Willy Wouters born in Belgium, Tournai to Abel Wouters and Maria COppenolle
1945-01-02 Alias "Lauzoney, Roger" birthdate
1946-05-11 Ilona born of Josef Kinczel and Elizabeth Novonty in Budapest, Hungary
1946-05 to 1957-01(?) Ilona residence Antal Janos Octca, 10 Budapest XI, Hungary
1957 Ilona arrived in Belgium with parents from Hungary
1957-01 to 1958 Ilona residence Oveuue Beau Se Jour Veele (?)
1958 to 1960 Ilona residence at 155 Chaussea de Wavre Bruxelles 5
1960 to 1964 Ilona residence 48, Rue Waguberg, IX elles, olce 64 a ea Jour
1965-04-05 to 1969-10-17 Willy Wouters fraud and other crimes Tournai, Brussles, Charleroi, Leuven, Brugge, Waremme
1965-06-18 to 1967-02-15 Ilona worked as apprentise hairdresser but did not complete
1968-08-19 Ilona Australia visa certificate of conduct
1968-12-13 Ilona residence at 155 CRoussoo de Wavre Bruxelles 5
1969-03-07 Ilona correspondence address Overijse 15 Avenue Henri Conscience
1969-04-16 Ilona residence at 46, rue des Francs, Etterbeek
1969-05-10 alleged marriage date between Ilona Reid and Willy Wouters in Brussels
1969-05-11 Ilona flew to australia
1969-05-24 Willy Wouters arrived in perth, status Married
1969-05-26 Willy Wouters residence Godbell St, 6, Paddington
1969-10-02 Willy Wouters granted resident status in sydney
1970-02-15 Ilona left commonwealth of Australia on UT2506 from Sydney to Belgium?
1970-02-15 Willy Wouters departed Australia on UT2506 to Belgium, status Divorced (2)
1970 Ilona married in Budapest Hungary to MJR (Reid?)
1971 Ilona first child born (daughter ER)
1971-12-09 Willy Wouters Rouen France, 4 years prison
1972-11-16 Willy Wouters Lille France, 1 years prison (concurrent with previous sentance)
1973-01-23 Willy Wouters Fraud 1 years prison (concurrent with previous sentances)
1973 Ilona second child born (son CR)
1974-01 Willy Wouters App Dousai "checks without cover" 1 years prison
1974-05-21 Willy Wouters discharged from prison
1974 Willy Wouters might have returned to Australia this year but no records can be found say immigration dept
1976 Ilona arrives in Australia again (implied from death certificate)
1976-02-12 Willy Wouters changes name to FD de Hedervary
1976-02-20 FD de Hedervary marries wife #2 Dianne
1976-02-23 FD de Hedervary applies for Australian citizenship
1976-03-25 FD de Hedervary Australian citizenship granted
1976-03-25 FD de Hedervary residence 303 old south head road, bondi NSW
1976-03-25 FD de Hedervary Australian passport issued
1976-06 Willy Wouters false impersonation, Paris, 1 year sentance
1976-07-28 FD and Dianne depart Australia
1976-09-30 to 1977-01-24 Willy Wouters financial frauds in Brugges, Brussels and several other towns (3)
1977-03-17 FD and Dianne return to Australia
1977-03-22 FD departs Australia again
1977-05-31 to 1978-09-01 Various frauds in Belgium
1978-03 Willy Wouters Tournai forgery 3 or 5 years prison (3)
1978-08-13 FD and Dianne return to Australia from Belgium, address 5/48 Towns Road, Vaulcuse
1978 Ilona died, St Kilda, Victoria of Mycardial ischaemia (heart), The Coroner at Melbourne Mr H.W. Pascoe ordered burial of the body without inquest.
1979-04-02 FD and Dianne child 1 born in Sydney
1980-02-06 FD departs Australia for Belgium
1980-04-23 Dianna and child 1 depart Australia for Amsterdam
1980-01-21 Dianna and child return to Australia
1981-04-02 FDs new passport issued Bonn (Germany?)
1981-04-17 FD and Dianne child 2 born in Luxemburg
1981-06-17 FD registered for birth broad, address 22 Rue des Muguets, Luxembourg
1981-11-18 FD returns to Australia
1981-12-04 FD departs Australia for Brussels
1985-01-29 NSW drivers license issued to Chaim Frederic David Dehedervary, 4/6A rangers av, cremone 2090 (1)
1986-01-02 FD returns to Australia, after 6 years absence, residence ye old Passy, Hazel Road, Tamborene Qld 4270
1986-09 FD departs Australia
1986-10-06 FD returns to Australia
1986-10-06 FDs residence 17 Linning St, Warren Park Qld

That is really useful thank you. It would now appear his 1st wife would have left Hungary in early 1957 following the Hungarian Revolution of 1956. This was the time of Operation Safe Haven.

 

[Estelle]

Very interesting. Thanks for putting this together. Hang on though, was he called David at one point or is that a mistake? So confusing with all the name changes.

RB was born Willy David Wouters.

 

[Estelle]

That is really useful thank you. It would now appear his 1st wife would have left Hungary in early 1957 following the Hungarian Revolution of 1956. This was the time of Operation Safe Haven.

Operation Safe Haven was a refugee relocation operation executed by the United States Marine Corps to evacuate 15,570-21,000 of the 200,000 Hungarian refugees to the United States following the Hungarian Revolution of 1956. The airlift was ordered by Dwight D.

 

[TootsieFootsie]

I'd been wondering and hoping that she might have met someone nice.
I'm so happy to hear that she did.
Thanks for posting.

Yes, I was pretty happy to see her doing well too! So much sadness with this case at times. I’m glad she found someone and moved on.

 

[Lokii]

Secret Wedding Events - Tamborine, Австралия

Some one was looking at this street ?

This fascinating considering ....The twists and turns are endless

There are quite a few wedding venues and waterfalls/parks in that area that people use for wedding locations, Tamborine Mountain especially. There are also heritage-listed homes in the area too I believe. It has a very small town/touristy vibe about it. Very picturesque. Quaint little cafes, antique shops. From Tamborine Mountain you can see the Gold Coast, it’s not far at all.

 

[poppypopcorn]

Have just listened to the podcast and it's fairly clear the lawyer was trying to get Sally's evidence to show that the Belgian of many identities had been in the house. He couldn't have known about the layout of the house (which must be in his statement/interview) from the podcast because it hadn't been mentioned. Other things - like Owen being a mechanic, or Chris working at Seaworld - had been mentioned so I understood it as trying to separate the fact from the fiction.

 

[poppypopcorn]

You can do a Post-Grad in genealogy? Where do I sign up?! How fascinating

There are various options.

MSc Genealogical, Palaeographic & Heraldic Studies UK | University of Strathclyde
or Online Genealogy Courses | Pharos Tutors
or Courses

All aimed at different groups, the first one is more academic, others you can dip in and out taking modules as you wish. It's a lot of fun and very interesting and if I had more time in between assignments and "proper work" i'd be all over the records research for our mysterious Belgian too.

 

[poppypopcorn]

I also thought the line of questioning of the bank guy was interesting - the stuff about the envelopes. The lawyer seemed at pains to point out that although the account was in the name of Mr and Mrs De Hedevery, it was only HIM who paid the fee to have the safety deposit and so on. It does appear that they have no interest - at this stage - in the wife.

 

[Lokii]

Widdle Willy Wouters.
Passport photo. 1986

Haha! Widdle Willy Wouters with the blue bits LOL

 

[chinguetti]

Great timeline

Ilona dod is 13 July 1997

Should this be Ilona Kinczel

1969-05-10 alleged marriage date between Ilona Reid and Willy Wouters in Brussels

Another post said Ilona died in 1978 at St Kilda, Victoria of Mycardial ischaemia (heart). Do you know which one was the "wife" of Willy Wouters? I fixed my timeline with the error you spotted. Thanks. I created 2 lines, still many gaps to fill.

*** FD timeline***
1939-07-09 Willy Wouters born in Belgium, Tournai to Abel Wouters and Maria COppenolle
1945-01-02 Alias "Lauzoney, Roger" birthdate
1946-05-11 Ilona born of Josef Kinczel and Elizabeth Novonty in Budapest, Hungary
1946-05 to 1957-01(?) Ilona residence Antal Janos Octca, 10 Budapest XI, Hungary
1957 Ilona arrived in Belgium with parents from Hungary
1957-01 to 1958 Ilona residence Oveuue Beau Se Jour Veele (?)
1958 to 1960 Ilona residence at 155 Chaussea de Wavre Bruxelles 5
1960 to 1964 Ilona residence 48, Rue Waguberg, IX elles, olce 64 a ea Jour
1965-04-05 to 1969-10-17 Willy Wouters fraud and other crimes Tournai, Brussles, Charleroi, Leuven, Brugge, Waremme
1965-06-18 to 1967-02-15 Ilona worked as apprentise hairdresser but did not complete
1968-08-19 Ilona Australia visa certificate of conduct
1968-12-13 Ilona residence at 155 CRoussoo de Wavre Bruxelles 5
1969-03-07 Ilona correspondence address Overijse 15 Avenue Henri Conscience
1969-04-16 Ilona residence at 46, rue des Francs, Etterbeek
1969-05-10 alleged marriage date between Ilona Kinczel and Willy Wouters in Brussels
1969-05-11 Ilona flew to australia
1969-05-24 Willy Wouters arrived in perth, status Married
1969-05-26 Willy Wouters residence Godbell St, 6, Paddington
1969-10-02 Willy Wouters granted resident status in sydney
1970-02-15 Ilona left commonwealth of Australia on UT2506 from Sydney to Belgium?
1970-02-15 Willy Wouters departed Australia on UT2506 to Belgium, status Divorced (2)
1970 Ilona married in Budapest Hungary to MJR (Reid?)
1971 Ilona first child born (daughter ER)
1971-12-09 Willy Wouters Rouen France, 4 years prison
1972-11-16 Willy Wouters Lille France, 1 years prison (concurrent with previous sentance)
1973-01-23 Willy Wouters Fraud 1 years prison (concurrent with previous sentances)
1973 Ilona second child born (son CR)
1974-01 Willy Wouters App Dousai "checks without cover" 1 years prison
1974-05-21 Willy Wouters discharged from prison
1974 Willy Wouters might have returned to Australia this year but no records can be found say immigration dept
1976 Ilona arrives in Australia again (implied from death certificate)
1976-02-12 Willy Wouters changes name to FD de Hedervary
1976-02-20 FD de Hedervary marries wife #2 Dianne
1976-02-23 FD de Hedervary applies for Australian citizenship
1976-03-25 FD de Hedervary Australian citizenship granted
1976-03-25 FD de Hedervary residence 303 old south head road, bondi NSW
1976-03-25 FD de Hedervary Australian passport issued
1976-06 Willy Wouters false impersonation, Paris, 1 year sentance
1976-07-28 FD and Dianne depart Australia
1976-09-30 to 1977-01-24 Willy Wouters financial frauds in Brugges, Brussels and several other towns (3)
1977-03-17 FD and Dianne return to Australia
1977-03-22 FD departs Australia again
1977-05-31 to 1978-09-01 Various frauds in Belgium
1978-03 Willy Wouters Tournai forgery 3 or 5 years prison (3)
1978-08-13 FD and Dianne return to Australia from Belgium, address 5/48 Towns Road, Vaulcuse
1978 Ilona died, St Kilda, Victoria of Mycardial ischaemia (heart), The Coroner at Melbourne Mr H.W. Pascoe ordered burial of the body without inquest.
1979-04-02 FD and Dianne child 1 born in Sydney
1980-02-06 FD departs Australia for Belgium
1980-04-23 Dianna and child 1 depart Australia for Amsterdam
1980-01-21 Dianna and child return to Australia
1981-04-02 FDs new passport issued Bonn (Germany?)
1981-04-17 FD and Dianne child 2 born in Luxemburg
1981-06-17 FD registered for birth broad, address 22 Rue des Muguets, Luxembourg
1981-11-18 FD returns to Australia
1981-12-04 FD departs Australia for Brussels
1985-01-29 NSW drivers license issued to Chaim Frederic David Dehedervary, 4/6A rangers av, cremone 2090 (1)
1986-01-02 FD returns to Australia, after 6 years absence, residence ye old Passy, Hazel Road, Tamborene Qld 4270
1986-09 FD departs Australia
1986-10-06 FD returns to Australia
1986-10-06 FDs residence 17 Linning St, Warren Park Qld
1997-07-13 Ilona date of death?


*** MB timeline***
1945-10-03 MB born in Marrickville
1950s MB moved to Brisbane.
1957ish MB moved to Oyster Bay
1967-12 MB Marries Johnny Warren (ep 2)
1968-09-03 to 1969-01-09 MB + Johnnys trip to the UK (Marion visited Amsterdam for the first time on this trip)
1968-11-25 Johnny played his last game for Stockport County Reserves in the Northern Floodlit League
1971 MB splits from Johnny Warren, suffers nervous breakdown (according to John Economis)
1972 MB began working with Janice White
1972 MB began relationship with Stewart Brown
1973-05 MBs daughter Sally born
1974-10 MBs son Owen born
1975- MB Left Stewart, took children to Queensland. Returned to try and rekindle relationship when father-in-law was diagnosed with cancer
1977- MB Married Stewart Brown
1979- MB Divorced Stewart Brown, moved to Lapstone
MB ?- Ray Barter moves in, after a few dates, having never met the children.
1985-06-09 MB Marriage to Ray
1988 MB, Ray and Sally (Owen?) move to Gerringong
1989 Divorced Ray Barter
1993 MB Interviewed for position at TSS
1994 MB Commenced work at TSS
1996 MB Christmas with parents and Wilson family.
199? MB Marion talks about a melanoma
199? MB had a theft from her car a while before her trip to the UK. Sally remarked the person on CCTV looked like Marion. Medicare card and wallet stolen.
1997-04 MB resigns from TSS
199? ?Marion sells house
1997-05-15 MB changed name by deed poll to Florabella Natalia Marion Remakel
199? MB dentist signs paperwork for new passport
199? MB is sighted by Sally with a man in a car
199? MB stays with Lesley Loveday
199? MBs freind Lesley Loveday drives her to bus station
1997-06-16 Apparatur Verfahren SA incorporated (shell company address) (5)
1997-06-17 Mr Blum, according to international movement records – travelled to Japan with his outgoing passenger card saying he intended to spend 30 days in Belgium. (this is probably where MB got the Japanese stationery from)
1997-06-23 MB Left Australia from Brisbane airport with two suitcases
1997-06 MB Arrives in Seoul, South Korea
1997-06 MB arrives in London
1997-?? MB hires a car
1997-07-15 MB supposed to travel on Orient Express but decided not to
1997-07-25 Fernand Remakel files patent for vacuum tube with company Apparatur Verfahren SA
1997-?? MB Mention of Mazz and the Dutch dentist in postcard (date of postcard?)
1997-07-31 MB calls Sally, leaving a message on her answering machine.
1997-07-31 RB returned to Australia using name of “Richard Lloyd Westbury” on his passport following change by Deedpoll.
1997-07 MB sent early birthday gift to sister Deirdre, whose birthday was August 7.
1997-08-01 MB calls Sally from a payphone, indicating that she had postponed her trip on the Orient Express
1997-08-02 MB Passport returns to Australia. Passenger Arrival card states that Marion is married. Name changed to Remakel.
1997-08-30 MB postcard sent from Tunbridge England to Marion's family
1997-08 to 1997-09 MB account drained daily withdrawals of $5000 from a bank in Byron Bay, with three of those days having withdrawals coming from a bank in Burleigh Heads.
1997-09-13 MBs medicare card used for visit to Optometrist in Grafton
1997-10-18 MBs son Owen’s birthday but no call was made to him which alerted Sally
1997-10-22 MBs daugher Sally reports to Byron Bay police station, with Senior Constable Graeme Childs lodging an occurrence. A stop was placed on Marions account.
1997-10-late MB Byron Bay police related to Sally by phone- that he had spoken to Marion, who didn’t want any contact, or anyone to know where she was. No record in police documentation of this.
1997-?? MBs father father, in notes prepared for the Salvation Army, states that he asked the police what identification had been made and they said that the bank security had contacted Marion on the phone and that she didn’t want any contact.
1997-?? MBs daughter Sally showed photo of Marion to bank teller, who seemed to recognise her and took the photo to the manager. The teller returned, took a copy of the picture and asked Sally what she would like him to say if he saw her.
1998-02-12 MB. Salvation army employee Betty Brown sends letter to Jack Wilson, confirming that his request for assistance had been received.
1998-03-18 Letter from Salvation Army- to Jack Wilson. Confirming phone call, reiterating that his daughter had been identified withdrawing money at a different bank and that she spoke of starting a new life. Colonial State Bank at Ashmore- 15 October, 1990 (typo?) Marion withdrew the balance of her account. In referenced phone call, Marion had said she was angry with Sally for not putting the money from the car sale into her account, that she didn’t want anything to do with her family.
1998-10-22 MB. Oct 22 1998- Sally marries at TSS- Marion didn’t attend.
2002-03-06 MBs son, Owen, dies at 27 years old.
2002- MB. Crimestoppers caller says a woman called Marion who was missing from northern nsw was killed and buried in bushland near Armidale.
2003-04-15 MB. Salvation Army begins new search, instigated by Sally.
2003-07-01 MB. Jack Wilson, Marion's father, dies.
2010- MB. Gary Sheehan investigates in Armidale- SES, dog in Armidale. Followed up at an address in Armidale. Address real, name not- people at the house had no idea.
2006-02-07 MB. Salvation Army unable to locate Marion
2007- MB. Marion’s passport expired
2007- MB. Sally contacts AFP missing persons unit. AFP going to use Marion’s case for missing persons week, but NSW police asked them not for investigative reasons.
2007-07-06 MB, Sally had NSW police unit changed to missing from occurance
2007-07-11 MB Oficer in NSW missing person unit sent email confirmed that status had been changed.
2007-07-27 MB NSW inspector to AFP- Marion was spoken with in last month.
2007-08 MB. email to AFP- shows that Marion was not spoken to in the last month.
2009 MB. Gary Sheehan takes on Marion’s case.
2010 MB. Sally makes statement to police- prior to disappearance, Sally called her mother at Lesley’s, but Lesley thought that Marion was staying with Sally. Lesley said that her mother had also comeback very late on night, saying she had locked her keys in the car. (I assume this is after she has sold the house, before she left).
2010 Mrs Andree Flamme Letter with concerns about Australian-born Belgian, Frederick de Hedervary who is wanted by Belgian police. (4)
2011-05-15 MB. NSW police inform Chris (Sally’s husband) that Marion had changed her name prior to leaving. Gary Sheehan went to Sally’s house to tell her about the change in name on her passport.
2011-10 MB. Marion noted as “located”
2011-12 MB. Apparently Sally is told that Marion was removed from the missing person- which Sally disputes.
2012- Gary Sheehan has Marion removed from listing as a missing person. (This is confusing)
2013-07-23 MB. Clark Hunter messages on facebook- Natalia is alive but you will never see her again. It was not her intention to disappear, she was forced.

 

[Carovb5]

View attachment 332765 . 1986 passport

Thanks!

 

[Laughing]

I am currently most of the way through a postgraduate degree in family history / genealogy

But don't underestimate how long it might take, and how much work is involved. Then all the ethical/legal issues, and the costs.

Somewhat off-topic: jealous, jealous, jealous first because I am an old genealogist who now just might sign up for an on-line course, and because my Scot people are from Lanark. I think you are studying in Strathclyde?

And, thanks for explaining this. The DNA set-up for 23& Me, Ancestry, etc is different from the law enforcement DNA set-up. Genetic genealogy also depends on relatives submitting their material to a database. Far from simple!

Back to the quest for Marion....

jmho ymmv lrr

 

[Laughing]

With regard to his 1st wife being Hungarian. The communists closed the borders in Hungary in 1947 the year of her birth. I wonder if her parents were amongst the 200000 that managed to escape that year?

The author of this memoir walked across the border into Austria in 1956 after a failed revolution:

Swimming Across: A Memoir by Andrew S. Grove

Apparently, many young people did the same. Was the young lady in this group?

jmho ymmv lrr

 

[Meligator]

IK docs in NAA — there is a note dated 12/2021! detailing why some records are not available. Reasons relate to protection of intelligence agent identity and national security issues (my language).

 

[centred]

I have been rereading a few things and on reading the change of name details by deed poll , it states from that point on you must only use the new name going forward and that includes all financial transactions etc so if that is the case would you not have too change your details re bank accounts etc ? My mother had a name change after divorce back to her mothers maiden name and i think all her accounts were now in her new name .

So i am guessing MB would have to have been withdrawing the money with her new name details and signatures ? did the bank have the record of the name change ?

It wasn't Marion they were dealing with any more , as she was now FNMR ?
Am I wrong / Could she withdraw and transfer under her old name after the change ?

 

[Lokii]

I have been rereading a few things and on reading the change of name details by deed poll , it states from that point on you must only use the new name going forward and that includes all financial transactions etc so if that is the case would you not have too change your details re bank accounts etc ? My mother had a name change after divorce back to her mothers maiden name and i think all her accounts were now in her new name .

So i am guessing MB would have to have been withdrawing the money with her new name details and signatures ? did the bank have the record of the name change ?

It wasn't Marion they were dealing with any more , as she was now FNMR ?
Am I wrong / Could she withdraw and transfer under her old name after the change ?

I assume she could still withdraw if her current ID was produced along with the change of name certificate.

 

[centred]

I assume she could still withdraw if her current ID was produced along with the change of name certificate.

Thanks Loki that makes sense , i think i was over thinking the complications i was imagining reading all the frauds and name changes from "him " with many names
And to add the same initials i think from memory , I figure there has to be a reason for this

 

[Lokii]

In QLD, if someone changes their name legally via the Births, Deaths & Marriages office, they can also choose to have an amended birth certificate issued to them along with the change of name certificate. The amended birth certificate shows no mention of the original birth name. I don’t know if that happens in other states and countries too?
With an amended birth certificate one wouldn’t even have to produce the change of name certificate when opening up new bank accounts etc, they’d use the change of name certificate to obtain some photo ID in the new name and then that along with the amended birth certificate would allow them to create a whole new identity without people knowing they weren’t actually ever known by any other name! Crazy.