Australia Australia - Marion Barter, 51, missing after trip to UK, June 1997 #9

[Derleedl]

Her friend and former neighbour Leslie Loveday. Marion stayed with her after selling house, up to the day she left for overseas. LL gave he the ride to bus depot.

oh, yes thank you for the reminder!

 

[centred]

I just cant see that happening at all. While she may have been embarrassed at her naivety, to just disappear of her own accord after returning home seems very unlikely. She would not have not come forward at her sons death if she was still alive, no matter how embarrassed she may have been. That is my belief anyways.

Yes i understand this is a hard one to swallow and she did miss talking to him for his birthday in Oct 97 but had told Sally she would be out of contact for awhile in August and this is when Sally became concerned and then tried to find out why and then bank and police told her Marion wanted to start a new life .

I imagine when the money was being withdrawn in increments by Marion or someone posing as her for that matter that the bank may have queried the identity and change of name to verify her then it stands to reason this is when she had to explain her personal and private reasons and mentions she is starting a new life .

I am not sure at the moment when her son died but i do not discount that Marion may have passed by this time or is out of the country .I do not know .

What i find strange is the withdrawing the money in increments (as someone asked earlier why would you not just transfer this money to the other/another account ) ?

If it was my money i would have organized accessing MY money some other way than this major inconvenience ! ! It makes zero sense to me . The reasoning about missing out on the higher interest rate is ludicrous to me under the circumstances .

 

[Ponderer101]

RB's kids in an elite swim squad 6 days a week for years would be over $3,000 a year. Not doable on invalid and carers pension while renting a house.

 

[mishy66]

Yeah Colchester - that's a weird one. RB too very convoluted trips to the UK from Belgium. Look at a map... in the 90s, there were loads of ferries from Calais in France over to Dover in Kent. Kent is close to where he was travelling with Marion - south of London. Also the options of driving onto a Eurostar train, or catching a train direct from Lille to London or Ashford

But our Ric travelled to Rotterdam/Hook of Holland, then a 5 hour sailing to the UK rather than 90 minutes from Calais, then a train to Colchester, which is north east of London. Then pick up a car in Colchester to drive to Kent - which involves going round the M25 orbital motorway, across the Dartford crossing to the east of London - about 100 miles or more. A lot of very busy, very crowded roads for a man who never even drove his kids to school in Australia. I get why he would go BACK that way if he were headed to Schipol airport in Amsterdam , but it's a weird route to take.

Possibly to avoid detection from authorities with one of his many aliases????

 

[ruby925]

Yes i understand this is a hard one to swallow and she did miss talking to him for his birthday in Oct 97 but had told Sally she would be out of contact for awhile in August and this is when Sally became concerned and then tried to find out why and then bank and police told her Marion wanted to start a new life .

I imagine when the money was being withdrawn in increments by Marion or someone posing as her for that matter that the bank may have queried the identity and change of name to verify her then it stands to reason this is when she had to explain her personal and private reasons and mentions she is starting a new life .

I am not sure at the moment when her son died but i do not discount that Marion may have passed by this time or is out of the country .I do not know .

What i find strange is the withdrawing the money in increments (as someone asked earlier why would you not just transfer this money to the other/another account ) ?

If it was my money i would have organized accessing MY money some other way than this major inconvenience ! ! It makes zero sense to me . The reasoning about missing out on the higher interest rate is ludicrous to me under the circumstances .

Transferring to another account would leave a trail, possibly in the new name too. Also, the man of many names did not seem to like bank accounts (or credit cards)

 

[mishy66]

(part 2 and conclusion of the story)

—

In the UK, RB is so close to pulling off his complete swindle of Marion, but what to do about the house money in Australia? Marion must go back to withdraw it. RB would never try and fake that. THAT would be absolute theft and it would be on his home turf. He knows there is deed poll evidence of Marion’s changed name linking her to him.

Marion is promised a new life in Luxembourg, once they have her money. They’ll only fly back for a few days— perhaps on different flights, as RB makes his excuses sound plausible. Marion does what she’s told, but finds she is limited in her withdrawals. So she takes the opportunity to go to her optometrist and perhaps see about other medical issues. After all it will be a while before she can see a new doctor. These are the mundane things we do before starting a new life. But once again, she is not following orders from RB.

Here’s where Marion becomes the one with a difference. Did her suspicions suddenly cause her to act out, to challenge RB? Did his rage come when he finds out she saw doctors? Talked to people around the motel? Did her anger trigger his own childhood of female abandonment, so that he loses control and assaults her? Did she threaten to turn him in? To call her family? Did she go through his wallet and find out that he had many different names? Follow him to his home with D?

The one thing I know happened is that back on home turf, in Australia, being separated from RB as he went back and forth to his wife-- Marion feels stronger. Less sure she wants adventure. Happy to be home and near security, she starts to question everything. But it's too late. Whatever happens in Australia, it is outside RB’s standard operating procedure. Marion upsets the plan, and Marion loses. She is murdered either by accident or by intent. RB has the money and all other the other things Marion had, but now there is a murder and he is linked to it. He calls his wife. He tells her everything, completely blaming Marion. Now his wife is an accessory to his crime of murder. They dispose of Marion’s body.

Everything changes for RB, and for a short while— months, years— he lays low. He swears to himself, he’ll be more careful. He’ll change. But as anyone who knows grifters knows, they never change. The tragedy of Marion was just a blip on RB’s radar, and he moves on.

I think you are 90% on the money with this whole theory!
It covers so many discrepancies in this whole case.

 

[Deleted member 249471]

Sorry for the long post... clarifying info about withdrawals and Owen's death.

During the inquest last year, it was revealed Marion's account had a restriction of only being able to withdraw a max of $5k per day.

Although the $5k withdrawn daily over 3.5 week is super suspicious, it is just as perplexing how she managed to withdraw $80k in one go. Normally, they only let you do that when you're buying a house. Otherwise, it gets flagged to be investigated for possible fraud and money laundering.

It appears none of the banks followed normal procedure as the amounts taken from Marion's account weren't normal behaviour and bank tellers are specifically trained to look for this kind of thing in order to prevent fraud.

We know there were many bank staff who have since done jail time for defrauding customers. Including people that worked at the banks were Marion's money was withdrawn. Their crimes are real but none of their crimes have yet been linked to Marion. It's possible RB had help from the inside in return for part of the money. We've talked about this extensively so you're welcome to use the search bar and google.

However, I'll repost notes from the inquest last year:
Graeme Smith, Commonwealth Bank (CBA) investigator

• Staff are trained to watch for customers withdrawing large amounts in small periods of time.
• Especially if it's not the customer’s normal branch (correct, it wasn't Marion's normal branch).
• Particularly if they went to the same teller (meaning the teller is dodgy), then it would trigger the process of a Suspicious Transaction Report (STR).
• An STR is made if $5k was withdrawn every day for just 3 days, let alone 3.5 weeks. Yet no STR was made.
• However, it wouldn’t be so noticable if the person visited multiple branches (as far as we know, they didn't, most of it was at Byron which wasn't Marion's branch).
• Withdrawing a large amount on one day, such as $80,000, is a huge red flag to the bank.
• The only time a large withdrawal won't cause alarm, is when the purpose was to buy a house.
• You could only withdraw up to $800 per day at an ATM or EFTPOS.
• Police never contacted the CBA investigator and records are long gone.
• Thinks it's very suspicious Marion vanished yet left $14,000 in her UK Barclays account. Hasn't seen that before.

David Martin, bank manager of Colonial in 1997

• Withdrawing amounts over $10k was suspicious and would be reported to AUSTRAC.
• Confirms that on 2 June 1997, after house was sold, her mortgage on the house was discharged, and Marion opened a high performing interest earning account.
• The account had a restriction of only being allowed to withdraw $5k a day.
• He does NOT recall police or Salvos ever getting in contact with him.
• And they did NOT have a securities officer at Ashmore, ever.

 

[Deleted member 249471]

Timeline
Aug - Sept 1997
Commonwealth Bank (CBA) $5k withdrawn daily for 3.5 weeks at Byron Bay (and 3 days in middle at Burleigh Heads branch), totalling between $85k to $120k.

15 October 1997
$80,000 withdrawn from Colonial State Bank, Ashmore.

18 October 1997
Owen’s birthday (Marion's son). He did not hear from Marion which is very unusual for Marion. No-one's heard from Marion in 3 months.

22 October 1997
Sally makes police report at Byron Bay.

2002
Owen dies by suicide.

 

[Isabelle-Australia]

(part 2 and conclusion of the story)

—

In the UK, RB is so close to pulling off his complete swindle of Marion, but what to do about the house money in Australia? Marion must go back to withdraw it. RB would never try and fake that. THAT would be absolute theft and it would be on his home turf. He knows there is deed poll evidence of Marion’s changed name linking her to him.

Marion is promised a new life in Luxembourg, once they have her money. They’ll only fly back for a few days— perhaps on different flights, as RB makes his excuses sound plausible. Marion does what she’s told, but finds she is limited in her withdrawals. So she takes the opportunity to go to her optometrist and perhaps see about other medical issues. After all it will be a while before she can see a new doctor. These are the mundane things we do before starting a new life. But once again, she is not following orders from RB.

Here’s where Marion becomes the one with a difference. Did her suspicions suddenly cause her to act out, to challenge RB? Did his rage come when he finds out she saw doctors? Talked to people around the motel? Did her anger trigger his own childhood of female abandonment, so that he loses control and assaults her? Did she threaten to turn him in? To call her family? Did she go through his wallet and find out that he had many different names? Follow him to his home with D?

The one thing I know happened is that back on home turf, in Australia, being separated from RB as he went back and forth to his wife-- Marion feels stronger. Less sure she wants adventure. Happy to be home and near security, she starts to question everything. But it's too late. Whatever happens in Australia, it is outside RB’s standard operating procedure. Marion upsets the plan, and Marion loses. She is murdered either by accident or by intent. RB has the money and all other the other things Marion had, but now there is a murder and he is linked to it. He calls his wife. He tells her everything, completely blaming Marion. Now his wife is an accessory to his crime of murder. They dispose of Marion’s body.

Everything changes for RB, and for a short while— months, years— he lays low. He swears to himself, he’ll be more careful. He’ll change. But as anyone who knows grifters knows, they never change. The tragedy of Marion was just a blip on RB’s radar, and he moves on.

my only question is, why didn’t Marion call Sally as soon as she got back to Australia?

 

[mishy66]

Did anyone else notice, when talking about AF, RB mentions that AFS daughter emailed him. This is the first mention of any type of technology, other then the mobile phone, that he has mentioned. He has denied any other type of technology.

They would have had to have had a computer. I didn't believe that they both said they didn't have one for a second. Two teenage kids in the house, buying and selling properties, organising trips OS etc etc etc.

 

[Belleandsebastian]

More mention of 'Coppenolle' on Noble Coins. This time from 2010.
"A long term client is offering his Roman and European coins (supplied with extensive handwritten notes) under his family name Coppenolle."
Sale 95 auction preface - News - Noble Numismatics

Edit: Search 'noble coins coppenolle' and theres a surprising amount that comes up.

 

[mishy66]

What was his plan when his victims eventually made their way back to Australia? Is there a chance that they would have bumped in to each other ? A name change is one thing, but they would recognise him! Or they would search for him?

That is the thing... I dont think them coming back was the game plan in my opinion.

I think the left suitcases at the airports was to 1. have access to the victims documents and 2. have clothing to wear that matches them. Admittedly I have only seen the images of some victims of his but to me they are all of the same frame as his wife DdeH. Very easy to change hair /colour / style and clothing - not so easy to change body frames... I would not be a candidate for his scheme as I am very short and fine boned.

 

[centred]

++

They would have had to have had a computer. I didn't believe that they both said they didn't have one for a second. Two teenage kids in the house, buying and selling properties, organising trips OS etc etc etc.

The period re the email was much later than the 90 s i gathered .

 

[Deleted member 249471]

my only question is, why didn’t Marion call Sally as soon as she got back to Australia?

Exactly! She even told Sally that no-one was going to hear from her in a while as she was going to be busy and wanted to focus on her holiday rather than writing postcards! It's so strange!

 

[Isabelle-Australia]

This "travel agent" could be the key to finding out what happened to Marion. An accomplice.

He was adamant she (JO) should use this travel agent, and if I remember correctly would have her flying out on the 29th, but because she booked her own flight she was back home around the 20th.
He rocked up at her house totally surprised she was there. What was he planning?

 

[centred]

Timeline
Aug - Sept 1997
Commonwealth Bank (CBA) $5k withdrawn daily for 3.5 weeks at Byron Bay (and 3 days in middle at Burleigh Heads branch), totalling between $85k to $120k.

15 October 1997
$80,000 withdrawn from Colonial State Bank, Ashmore.

18 October 1997
Owen’s birthday (Marion's son). He did not hear from Marion which is very unusual for Marion. No-one's heard from Marion in 3 months.

22 October 1997
Sally makes police report at Byron Bay.

2002
Owen dies by suicide.

$80,000 would have bought a house in the 90 s . With or without a deposit of any kind paid to initiate the deal

This $80,000 was withdrawn in cash was it ? I don't know why i thought it was said somewhere it was deposited somewhere else ? Or was that the questioning of depositing into the secure envelope at the Commonwealth on the 15th ?

 

[Deleted member 249471]

Very early on, the police suggested that $80k might've been wired overseas. It reinforced the story she ran off with a man to buy a house, and that she didn't want to be contacted. But it was a very suspicious thing to say considering Colonial have no proof of the transfer, and police never contacted CBA, so which $80k were they referring to, and where did they get this news from?

Police later took it back, and lost Marion's original file. Yes, Police LOST Marion's original file. When GS took over the case, he had to start a new file.

Separate to this, the podcast found a CBA transfer on the 14 Oct 1997. Amount unknown. We are not sure how it relates to Marion. It might be RBs document? No idea.

Separate to this, the inquest mentioned RB had a CBA security envelope on 14 Oct 1997.

 

[mishy66]

RB's plan for JO – how was it supposed to end?
IMO, Speculation only:

He told her he was in hospital in France, recuperating.
But actually returned to Amsterdam, picked up luggage, and snuck back into Aus.
He showed up at her house with keys, title deed, and POA.
He didn't need to 'dig up' tube as he never buried it, just pretend to. He always had the items on him.

JO wasn't supposed to be home, but completely unaware in UK.
So, he was going to empty her house out, sell items and maybe keep some of it.
What was he going to do with the house?
We've talked about this before but some may've missed it...

There's a thing called real estate fraud or home title theft.
Essentially, they sell homes that do not belong to them, and keep the profit.

RB was intending to do this using an alias unconnected to JO, and police would never find proof of the link.
JO could eventually report it and fight it, but RB also legally had her title deeds and POA.
It would take a very long time for JO to prove fraud, that her house was her own, and get her money back.
There would be no reason to kill JO. Most scammers do this without murder.

3 Australian examples:
Fraud arrest, Moreton Bay (he was arrested for a boating incident, lol)
How criminals steal and sell your home from under your nose
Woman wins damages after scammers sold house from under her

How they do it:
A criminal scours publicly available property records to find a home that has accrued equity. They track down ownership of a home that’s either empty, a second residence or occupied by an elderly resident.

The thief creates a new identity for themselves. Then they forge the homeowner’s signature onto a fraudulent bill of sale, and transfer legal ownership of the house to their fake identity. This is a new type of identity theft that also involves more serious forgery, real estate and mortgage crimes. Source.

Wow!
I did not know this!!
How is this legislation not changed if they know that people are being swindled!!?
That is crazy!

This is what he is doing for sure - answers so many Qs about the moves of houses and where the money to do it comes from. The more I read about this case the more fictional it becomes but I have to remind myself this is a real case lead by one man! It is just nuts.
There is just NO WAY in the world his family wouldnt know what is going on to some extent.
IMO

Thank you for sharing this !

 

[mishy66]

I think Marion must have returned to Australia.

It can't be Diane using Marion's passport, they have school age kids, one who is 16, who would be looking after them if she went overseas, and who's passport would she use to leave? That can't have been the plan.

She has a husband who is a master at aliases, a passport under another name is the least of their concerns. The teenage children would not need looking after and would probably love the fact neither parent is home with them, given most teens love to think they are capable of looking after themselves. The parents / parent doesnt seem to be away OS for long as it seems. imo

 

[JLZ]

That has intrigued me. He is going much further to the west of Kent & Sussex. Never been mentioned in postcards. At first I wondered if AC was confusing it with Winchelsea but that and Jane Austin’s house I believe is relevant. Has someone in the UK who knows of the case come forward with records for that time?

Before I get even further behind, I just want to check that it's been noted that Jane Austen is buried in Winchester Cathedral. I haven't heard how that location came up?