Australia Australia - Marion Barter, 51, missing after trip to UK, June 1997 #9

[ruby925]

Just catching up with today's court proceedings. The Winchester Cathedral questioning is interesting.

All of the other places mentioned by RB or the lawyer are close together - Burwash, Hastings, Rye, Tonbridge, Tunbridge Wells, Dover, Deal. All in that far south east corner of England. Winchester is further - about 100 miles. Who knows. the whole thing is so odd.

I thought he meant Winchelsea, which is in the south east corner, but has no cathedral

Winchester and Winchelsea are different places. Winchelsea (which the lovely Mr Casselden pronounced as Win-CHEL-sea like the London area of Chelsea with "win" in front) is actually pronounced more like Winchell-sea, with the emphasis on the WIN.

It's a very small place, close to Rye and Hastings where we know Marion definitely was - or where postcards mentioned. Tiny place, like four streets and one shop/post office kind of place. A few farm based B&Bs on the edges of the village mind you.

Winchester is further west and definitely somewhere tourists would want to see. Huge cathedral. Lovely old part of town, loads of shopping and cafes and antique shops.

Yes, but I can't see where Winchester is relevant as place of interest in this case, or Jane Austen's house in Alton (also mentioned), which is about 18miles away from Winchester?

 

[ruby925]

sorry, deleted as duplicate

 

[TheCoolestNeopian]

(part 2 and conclusion of the story)

—

In the UK, RB is so close to pulling off his complete swindle of Marion, but what to do about the house money in Australia? Marion must go back to withdraw it. RB would never try and fake that. THAT would be absolute theft and it would be on his home turf. He knows there is deed poll evidence of Marion’s changed name linking her to him.

Marion is promised a new life in Luxembourg, once they have her money. They’ll only fly back for a few days— perhaps on different flights, as RB makes his excuses sound plausible. Marion does what she’s told, but finds she is limited in her withdrawals. So she takes the opportunity to go to her optometrist and perhaps see about other medical issues. After all it will be a while before she can see a new doctor. These are the mundane things we do before starting a new life. But once again, she is not following orders from RB.

Here’s where Marion becomes the one with a difference. Did her suspicions suddenly cause her to act out, to challenge RB? Did his rage come when he finds out she saw doctors? Talked to people around the motel? Did her anger trigger his own childhood of female abandonment, so that he loses control and assaults her? Did she threaten to turn him in? To call her family? Did she go through his wallet and find out that he had many different names? Follow him to his home with D? Whatever happened in Australia, it was outside of RB’s standard operating procedure. Marion upset the plan. RB has the money and all other the other things Marion had, but now there is a murder and he is linked to it. He calls his wife. He tells her everything, completely blaming Marion. Now his wife is now an accessory to his crime of murder. They dispose of Marion’s body.

Everything changes for RB, and for a short while— months, years— he lays low. He swears to himself, he’ll be more careful. He’ll change. But as anyone who knows grifters knows, they never change. The tragedy of Marion was just a blip on RB’s radar, and he moves on.

Wow! I don’t know enough about all the details of the case to know if there are plot holes, but it’s a compelling story! And sort of fleshes out what I had in my mind.

I hate thinking of Marion, trying to stay positive and trust the image of a new life this man had painted, while this small, niggling feeling deep down in her gut was telling her something might be wrong

It strikes me that she was likely reluctant to share news of her new life with her loved ones because of this sort of uneasy uncertainty. I could be wrong, but I connect with it. I’ve always had a thing where I don’t tell people that I’m attempting something until I know for sure it’s come off, because it would feel shameful for people to know I wanted something and half believed I was going to ‘get’ / achieve it and then failed (I ‘wasn’t good enough / worthy enough after all’). I think Sally said something in the pod fairly recently about her belief that her mother would’ve planned to tell her eventually. That resonates with me, 100%. To my mind, she was waiting to share her lovely, happy news when she knew for sure it was the good thing she believed it could be.

 

[gingertn]

Mortgaging the home makes a lot more sense (I'm not a homeowner so didn't think of that ). Even so, I think he would have had to provide identification with the bank for himself as well as the POA. Potentially doable with his alias and he might have been able to put some space between him and the crime.

Maybe he got cocky after managing to swindle for so long, but I think that this would have triggered a huge investigation if he got caught and the net would have been tightening.

Which is maybe why he didn't go through with it in the end? He DID have her deeds (which he stole from her even after she returned to Aus so he very much knew she was alive at this point), and he DID still have POA. Yet he didn't go through with trying to do anything profitable with this. Why? If it's just because he thought she'd go to the police, why steal them back in the first place?

I think her getting back so quick, threw his plan. To mortgage the house, I'm sure the bank/lender would have to do some sort of inspection on the home first. That would be very hard to pull off with her there. He thought he had more time and would be long gone by the time the letters from the bank/lender would start showing up at her house asking about a late payment.

Nothing else makes any sense to me - he go through all of that with her and not have a goal.

 

[MrsEmmaPeel]

Wow! I don’t know enough about all the details of the case to know if there are plot holes, but it’s a compelling story! And sort of fleshes out what I had in my mind.

I hate thinking of Marion, trying to stay positive and trust the image of a new life this man had painted, while this small, niggling feeling deep down in her gut was telling her something might be wrong

It strikes me that she was likely reluctant to share news of her new life with her loved ones because of this sort of uneasy uncertainty. I could be wrong, but I connect with it. I’ve always had a thing where I don’t tell people that I’m attempting something until I know for sure it’s come off, because it would feel shameful for people to know I wanted something and half believed I was going to ‘get’ / achieve it and then failed (I ‘wasn’t good enough / worthy enough after all’). I think Sally said something in the pod fairly recently about her belief that her mother would’ve planned to tell her eventually. That resonates with me, 100%. To my mind, she was waiting to share her lovely, happy news when she knew for sure it was the good thing she believed it could be.

@TheCoolestNeopian - thanks for your bullet points. they were my inspiration. and you too @Estelle. I'm on your wavelength.

One last thing I left out. . . just being back in Australia may have emboldened Marion. It was what RB didn't want, for her to feel solid and surefooted again. That was the risk he took in letting her come back. I think she began wavering when she got home again, and that was her downfall.

 

[brjakj]

Did anyone else notice, when talking about AF, RB mentions that AFS daughter emailed him. This is the first mention of any type of technology, other then the mobile phone, that he has mentioned. He has denied any other type of technology.

 

[Belleandsebastian]

I don't really understand what his game plan was with JO either. So he's got her documents and left her high and dry in the UK. She's signed power of attorney over to him willingly, so maybe that explains the rest of what I'm about to say because it would have made his actions "legal". He goes back to Aus with the deeds to her house and digs up whatever meagre amount of jewellery was buried in the yard. What then?

Unless you try some kind of quick sale at auction, it takes time to sell a house. He couldn't have just cashed in immediately and made away with her assets. He must have known that she'd go to the authorities when she discovered what he'd done. I understand the idea that he was maybe counting on her being too embarrassed to report him/contest anything but I think that would be a huge risk to bank on.

Even if she willing signed over the power of attorney, her sons could have easily contested it.

"An Agent with power of attorney is legally required to act in the best interest of the Principal. If you believe an Agent is taking advantage of their Principal and wish to override power of attorney, you may need to challenge it in court and provide evidence that the Agent is being grossly negligent or abusive."

Going from the above, I think they would have been able to mount a solid case against him. There's no way he could have been completely in the wind with the funds and deeds tied to his name, even it was an alias.

I'm just spitballing here so if anyone could shed their theories/insight that would be great.

Maybe he already had a buyer lined up for her house.

 

[Belleandsebastian]

The only issue is how many of the missing women were listed as “missing of their own accord.”? I doubt that Marion was the only missing person case to be ignored by the police. The only reason we know about it now is because Sally went above and beyond. Hell even the majority of Marion’s family were willing to believe she just up and left.

Exactly. They wouldn’t even be on the missing persons list, as we know Sally had to fight to get Marion put on for many many years.

 

[katwingbat]

What was his plan when his victims eventually made their way back to Australia? Is there a chance that they would have bumped in to each other ? A name change is one thing, but they would recognise him! Or they would search for him?

 

[Deleted member 249471]

RB's plan for JO – how was it supposed to end?
IMO, Speculation only:

He told her he was in hospital in France, recuperating.
But actually returned to Amsterdam, picked up luggage, and snuck back into Aus.
He showed up at her house with keys, title deed, and POA.
He didn't need to 'dig up' tube as he never buried it, just pretend to. He always had the items on him.

JO wasn't supposed to be home, but completely unaware in UK.
So, he was going to empty her house out, sell items and maybe keep some of it.
What was he going to do with the house?
We've talked about this before but some may've missed it...

There's a thing called real estate fraud or home title theft.
Essentially, they sell homes that do not belong to them, and keep the profit.

RB was intending to do this using an alias unconnected to JO, and police would never find proof of the link.
JO could eventually report it and fight it, but RB also legally had her title deeds and POA.
It would take a very long time for JO to prove fraud, that her house was her own, and get her money back.
There would be no reason to kill JO. Most scammers do this without murder.

3 Australian examples:
Fraud arrest, Moreton Bay (he was arrested for a boating incident, lol)
How criminals steal and sell your home from under your nose
Woman wins damages after scammers sold house from under her

How they do it:
A criminal scours publicly available property records to find a home that has accrued equity. They track down ownership of a home that’s either empty, a second residence or occupied by an elderly resident.

The thief creates a new identity for themselves. Then they forge the homeowner’s signature onto a fraudulent bill of sale, and transfer legal ownership of the house to their fake identity. This is a new type of identity theft that also involves more serious forgery, real estate and mortgage crimes. Source.

 

[Seriallyaddicted]

How did the cops find R. Blum back in late December 1999 if he had a fake name? Did they look up who was sitting next to JO on the plane and he wasn’t traveling using a fake passport?

 

[Deleted member 249471]

How did the cops find R. Blum back in late December 1999 if he had a fake name? Did they look up who was sitting next to JO on the plane and he wasn’t traveling using a fake passport?

I don't think cops ever found him in 1999 and only discovered him now.

In 2000, JO reported him to the cops, so he is on their system as RLW (and aliases Ric West and Rich Richard). RLW is a valid name (and passport) he got via deed poll.

Maybe during Marion's inquest investigation police found JO as a witness after they searched their system for complaints about romance scams and home theft. It's a common procedure to search for complaints of a similar crime in the same area.

Police made the link to Ric Blum because he legally changed his name from RLW to RB.

Similarly, they might've found GGB as she reported him as FDdH. There's a link there too as he legally changed FDdH to RLW.

 

[VisitorDog]

in my readings narcissists only value/respect people who are just like them

Or the Madonna / *advertiser censored* complex and she’s his idea of the perfect woman. One who potentially didn’t fall for his flannel even when he modeled himself in the image of her one time husband.

 

[F.Knab]

I think Marion must have returned to Australia.

It can't be Diane using Marion's passport, they have school age kids, one who is 16, who would be looking after them if she went overseas, and who's passport would she use to leave? That can't have been the plan.

 

[vivienbee]

RB's plan for JO – how was it supposed to end?
IMO, Speculation only:

He told her he was in hospital in France, recuperating.
He returned to Amsterdam, picked up luggage, and snuck back into Aus.
He showed up at her house with keys, title deed, and POA.
He didn't need to 'dig up' tube as he never buried it, just pretend to. He always has the items on him.

JO wasn't supposed to be home, but completely unaware in UK.
So, he was going to empty her house out, sell items and maybe keep some of it.
But what was he going to do with the house?
We've talked about this before but some may've missed it...

There's a thing called real estate fraud or home title theft.
Essentially, they sell homes that do not belong to them, and keep the profit.

RB was intending to do this using an alias unconnected to JO, and police would never find proof of the link.
JO could eventually report it and fight it, but RB also legally had her title deeds and POA.
It would take a very long time for JO to prove fraud, that her house was her own, and get her money back.
There would be no reason to kill JO. Most scammers do this without murder.

3 Australian examples:
Fraud arrest, Moreton Bay
How criminals steal and sell your home from under you nose
Woman wins damages after scammers sold house from under her

How they do it:
A criminal scours publicly available property records to find a home that has accrued equity. They track down ownership of a home that’s either empty, a second residence or occupied by an elderly resident.

The thief creates a new identity for themselves. Then they forge the homeowner’s signature onto a fraudulent bill of sale, and transfer legal ownership of the house to their fake identity. This is a new type of identity theft that also involves more serious forgery, real estate and mortgage crimes. Source.

Thank you so much for explaining this! I must have missed it earlier on the threads and that is much clearer to me now. This makes absolute sense.

 

[Lokii]

I always assumed he was surprised to see her, not because she returned home so quickly but that she HAD returned home. But I think the worst of everyone.

I thought that JO said he told her to go to an agent of some kind (she couldn’t remember the name of the place) and they would help her book her flight home for around the end of the month.
She didn’t do that, with the help of her cousin she arranged her flight herself soon after the phone call. I would’ve thought they’d dig further into that.

 

[vivienbee]

I’ve always had a thing where I don’t tell people that I’m attempting something until I know for sure it’s come off, because it would feel shameful for people to know I wanted something and half believed I was going to ‘get’ / achieve it and then failed (I ‘wasn’t good enough / worthy enough after all’). I think Sally said something in the pod fairly recently about her belief that her mother would’ve planned to tell her eventually. That resonates with me, 100%. To my mind, she was waiting to share her lovely, happy news when she knew for sure it was the good thing she believed it could be.

THIS, 100% this. I completely relate to this as well and it's something that I believe to be the case, especially considering the testimony we heard from her sisters (who were, no judgment intended, not the most supportive of her decision making).

 

[Deleted member 249471]

I think Marion must have returned to Australia.

It can't be Diane using Marion's passport, they have school age kids, one who is 16, who would be looking after them if she went overseas, and who's passport would she use to leave? That can't have been the plan.

Yes, I agree. But also, 16 is mature enough to look after oneself, if needed. This might be why they moved to Wollongbar... so no-one would see that parent's aren't home. She could take the bus to school and swimming training. Lol, I keep swinging between all options

 

[bbbounce]

Yes, I agree. But also, 16 is mature enough to look after oneself, if needed. This might be why they moved to Wollongbar... so no-one would see that parent's aren't home. She could take the bus to school and swimming training. Lol, I keep swinging between all options

My tend to think it’s more likely than not that Marion re-entered Australia and that it was not someone impersonating her. However, having worked in Banking for more than 10 years, I’m less confident that it was Marion in the bank withdrawing the funds. Identification processes back then were far less sophisticated than the are today, or even 10 years ago. Again drawing on my own experience in the industry, I’ve always found the situation around “bank security” confirming her identity as frustrating. Ive heard it interpreted to mean a physical security guard, who of course would not identify customers. However, back in those days, police and govt depts, Centrelink and missing persons would routinely fax those institutions requests for information on cardholders and often the were just addressed to “bank security”. In reality those faxes, in my experience, we’re handled by fraud officers working at head offices, not at branches.
My best guesstimate is Marion made the initial withdrawals in Aus, but someone else may have made the latter ones and / or taken the proceeds from her.

 

[Behrnsy]

My tend to think it’s more likely than not that Marion re-entered Australia and that it was not someone impersonating her. However, having worked in Banking for more than 10 years, I’m less confident that it was Marion in the bank withdrawing the funds. Identification processes back then were far less sophisticated than the are today, or even 10 years ago. Again drawing on my own experience in the industry, I’ve always found the situation around “bank security” confirming her identity as frustrating. Ive heard it interpreted to mean a physical security guard, who of course would not identify customers. However, back in those days, police and govt depts, Centrelink and missing persons would routinely fax those institutions requests for information on cardholders and often the were just addressed to “bank security”. In reality those faxes, in my experience, we’re handled by fraud officers working at head offices, not at branches.
My best guesstimate is Marion made the initial withdrawals in Aus, but someone else may have made the latter ones and / or taken the proceeds from her.

They went to different branches too.
I wonder if this co insides with marion being questioned about.

Imo she did come back but she got wise and was detained somewhere until they had what they wanted.
They knew everything they had her passport probably all her important documents passwords.
She probably had more than any other victim had.
He only ever got 30k from gb
Stuff from JO. Potentially more but she got here before she was supposed too and was seen by other people.

Marion was going to expose them that's why it's different I think she knew about who the wife was.