Australia Australia - Marion Barter, 51, missing after trip to UK, June 1997 #9

[MrsEmmaPeel]

my only question is, why didn’t Marion call Sally as soon as she got back to Australia?

What I imagine is that Marion only planned a quick trip to Australia, to transfer money overseas or to RB. When she arrived she was forced for some reason to withdraw the funds as cash, and that took time. (Bank account in old name?) She couldnt call Sally without an explanation of why she was home. And if she did start to waver, I doubt she would have involved Sally or called her for help. As a mom myself, my kids are the last people I'd call in a bind.

 

[centred]

Exactly! She even told Sally that no-one was going to hear from her in a while as she was going to be busy and wanted to focus on her holiday rather than writing postcards! It's so strange!

yes it is very strange , so at this juncture Marion knew she was not intending to contact for sometime and cannot send postcards etc from the UK or the continent so it does appear she could have been intending to be some where else at least for awhile . So in that context it makes sense .

The dates Marions passport was tracked coming back into Australia as FNMR and that last phone call was very tight it was said ? I assume the allowances for dateline was taken into account re these dates ?

Did she return JL airlines threw Japan ? Was there a suggestion she may have rang from Japan on route ?

I am torn re DDH involvement re Marion because i was a bit shocked that she looks a lot like Marion or could have passed for Marion back then at least ,right down to the shape of her chin ,eyes, hair and body shape , I have seen images of their daughter and she is very attractive and i think so was D back in her early days .

This latest revelation that he claims his wife knew about Marion at the time has been said now for some reason ... I would like to know why ?

I found myself wondering as I watched yesterday if one of their children came forth with information of some sort . ?

 

[mishy66]

More mention of 'Coppenolle' on Noble Coins. This time from 2010.
"A long term client is offering his Roman and European coins (supplied with extensive handwritten notes) under his family name Coppenolle."
Sale 95 auction preface - News - Noble Numismatics

Edit: Search 'noble coins coppenolle' and theres a surprising amount that comes up.

Yes there is a whole bunch alright.
It does tie in with the theory that he was running a coin theft operation and that of the family Flamme is connected to his fraudulent dealings with this in my opinion

 

[Deleted member 249471]

Marion's flights as Florabella

Aus departure
• 22 June 1997 at 9.38pm (sorry, podcast originally said 23 but passenger card says 22)
• on a Korean Airlines flight to South Korea

The passenger card says:
• divorced
• an Australian resident for 52 years
• departing permanently for Luxembourg
• occupation home duties

Japan connection
A letter she wrote Sally is on stationary from a hotel in Narita (Japan) but sent from London. We assume she got off in Seoul, flew a different airline to Narita, spent at least one night in a hotel, and then flew from Narita to Heathrow Airport.

Aus arrival
• 2 August 1997 at 10.11am
• on a Cathy Pacific flight from Hong Kong

The passenger card says:
• married
• country of residence is Luxembourg
• returning to Australia as a visitor for a 8 days to see family
• staying at Novotel in Brisbane
• occupation home duties

 

[RDBL2022]

Is there any evidence at all that MB placed an ad in the paper? Not sure if may have missed that.

 

[mishy66]

++


The period re the email was much later than the 90 s i gathered .

Yes but both of them have said they never had a computer at all.
Of course they did, if they can afford for him to take trips OS for 40 yrs and move houses a dozen times, send the kids to competitive swim meets while still in school in the 90's, of course they could afford a computer. imo.

 

[Lokii]

What I imagine is that Marion only planned a quick trip to Australia, to transfer money overseas or to RB. When she arrived she was forced for some reason to withdraw the funds as cash, and that took time. (Bank account in old name?) She couldnt call Sally without an explanation of why she was home. And if she did start to waver, I doubt she would have involved Sally or called her for help. As a mom myself, my kids are the last people I'd call in a bind.

That depends on how the relationship was between Marion and Sally. Personally, if I found myself in a bind or upset over something major, and wanted to speak with someone who I knew genuinely cared about me, my adult children would the the only ones I’d speak to. Not to ask them for help financially or any other way, but I could speak to them because they actually do care and many people couldn’t care less about other peoples issues.
Marion and Sally seemed as though they were quite close in some ways.

 

[Deleted member 249471]

Is there any evidence at all that MB placed an ad in the paper? Not sure if may have missed that.

None whatsoever. According to Sally, Marion never lacked the ability to meet people and find a boyfriend though traditional face-to-face means. She even had younger men at her disposal. So there was no reason to place an ad.

Or for that matter, as Casselden put it, chase a man in his 60s, who was an invalid pensioner with a wife and kids, who lived in rented premises, had a criminal record and was short on cash. No disrespect to anyone in a similar situation. But the lady had options. So he clearly lied to her about who he really was and his current situation.

 

[Lokii]

Yes but both of them have said they never had a computer at all.
Of course they did, if they can afford for him to take trips OS for 40 yrs and move houses a dozen times, send the kids to competitive swim meets while still in school in the 90's, of course they could afford a computer. imo.

I’m pretty sure DdH said she had a computer but she claimed that he never used it.

 

[mishy66]

Very early on, the police suggested that $80k might've been wired overseas. It reinforced the story she ran off with a man to buy a house, and that she didn't want to be contacted. But it was a very suspicious thing to say considering Colonial have no proof of the transfer, and police never contacted CBA, so which $80k were they referring to, and where did they get this news from?

Police later took it back, and lost Marion's original file. Yes, Police LOST Marion's original file. When GS took over the case, he had to start a new file.

Separate to this, the podcast found a CBA transfer on the 14 Oct 1997. Amount unknown. We are not sure how it relates to Marion. It might be RBs document? No idea.

Separate to this, the inquest mentioned RB had a CBA security envelope on 14 Oct 1997.

Unbelievable that the NSW police lost that file. Hopefully that will be another investigation into their dealings of missing person cases later down the track!

 

[vivienbee]

I am torn re DDH involvement re Marion because i was a bit shocked that she looks a lot like Marion or could have passed for Marion back then at least ,right down to the shape of her chin ,eyes, hair and body shape ,

I respectfully disagree about how similar DDH looks to Marion. I don't rule out that a lazy bank teller might have taken brown hair and a vague resemblance for granted, but Marion has a long, distinct face shape and a slim nose that don't look anything like DDH imo. I'm really good with faces though (I can really easily match up photos of children to their adult selves etc.) so I may be falsely assuming that most people would see the same things that I do.

We haven't seen a picture of DDH during that time, yet, or even a clear photo of her separate from the trial. I wish we could find one. A fluctuation in weight etc. might change things slightly but it wouldn't change the structure of her face.

This is just how it appears to me though, and as I said, I'm not ruling it out.

 

[Ooohm]

Did the Arts Centre have coin fairs from time to time? I know the Council run Assembly Hall in Tunbridge Wells did at that time.

You have just reminded me of something. I attended a Gem Show at the Gold Coast Arts Centre sometime between April-June 1997. There were possibly coin sellers there too. These shows are regularly held but that was the first one I attended. Easy to start chatting to any number of middle-aged people who usually man the tables. This particular show I remember doesn’t quite fit Marion’s timeline but it would definitely be an event she would have enjoyed: lots of raw gems and the materials for a portable business. I myself contemplated reselling raw opals and purchased a few lots for gifts for family members overseas.

 

[mishy66]

More mention of 'Coppenolle' on Noble Coins. This time from 2010.
"A long term client is offering his Roman and European coins (supplied with extensive handwritten notes) under his family name Coppenolle."
Sale 95 auction preface - News - Noble Numismatics

Edit: Search 'noble coins coppenolle' and theres a surprising amount that comes up.

When I was doing some research last week I was reading about a Coppenolle back in the 15th century who had a currency minted under his rule. I will try to find it.

Edit - Jan van Coppenolle ~ Coppenhole dominated the political life of Ghent. Under his direction even their own coins, the so-called "coppenollen", were minted.

 

[Deleted member 249471]

I feel Rb has only told the truth ONCE regarding how he met his victims.
GGB: they both agree he contacted her after she placed a lonely hearts ad

But IMO he lied with the others
MC: she said he approached her randomly on the street – he said through furniture business with FR/Lux
JO: she said he called her out of the blue – he said he ran into her on the street
AF: I guess the French funeral notice – he said through son-in-law at Belgian library (doesn't make sense)
Marion:
1996 she said he met him through a friend at arts centre – he said after she placed a lonely hearts ad
1968 he said she approached him in a Swiss hotel lobby asking for sex because she was a lonely and frustrated newlywed while he was recovering from a 'horse crash' severe enough to leave him disabled as per pensions and compensation payout (honestly )

 

[centred]

Marion's flights as Florabella

Aus departure
• 22 June 1997 at 9.38pm (sorry, podcast originally said 23 but passenger card says 22)
• on a Korean Airlines flight to South Korea

The passenger card says:
• divorced
• an Australian resident for 52 years
• departing permanently for Luxembourg
• occupation home duties

Japan connection
A letter she wrote Sally is on stationary from a hotel in Narita (Japan) but sent from London. We assume she got off in Seoul, flew a different airline to Narita, spent at least one night in a hotel, and then flew from Narita to Heathrow Airport.

Aus arrival
• 2 August 1997 at 10.11am
• on a Cathy Pacific flight from Hong Kong

The passenger card says:
• married
• country of residence is Luxembourg
• returning to Australia as a visitor for a 8 days to see family
• staying at Novotel in Brisbane
• occupation home duties

Ok can i clarify a couple things in my mind please ...

without the assumption part at the moment , these details show flight TO south Korea by FNMR but no detail of flight to the continent or the UK ?

The return flight is FROM Hong Kong but no details of flights to Hong Kong ?

It has been a long time since i heard the details , so maybe you just shared these parts of the trip and I assume you have other reasons to assume about the note paper from Japan which of course i understand he stayed at Narita , but other than that is there other flight details for FNMR ?

 

[centred]

Yes but both of them have said they never had a computer at all.
Of course they did, if they can afford for him to take trips OS for 40 yrs and move houses a dozen times, send the kids to competitive swim meets while still in school in the 90's, of course they could afford a computer. imo.

it is not a matter off affording a computer , in the 90s it just was no where near the norm for many of us . I was a really slow starter and installed my first one in 2005 and still had many family and friends not bothering but of course now one has very little option to be off grid , off line .

So no i do not think or believe they had access in the 90s ....we did things very differently , we had land lines and maybe a fax for business type dealings

 

[Deleted member 249471]

Ok can i clarify a couple things in my mind please ...
without the assumption part at the moment , these details show flight TO south Korea by FNMR but no detail of flight to the continent or the UK ?
The return flight is FROM Hong Kong but no details of flights to Hong Kong ?

It has been a long time since i heard the details , so maybe you just shared these parts of the trip and I assume you have other reasons to assume about the note paper from Japan which of course i understand he stayed at Narita , but other than that is there other flight details for FNMR ?

The assumptions about Marion and Japan are very old. They were made years ago by sleuths here more knowledgable than I, when the letter was first revealed on the podcast, years before we knew about RB. They have nothing to do with RB. The fact the inquest is bringing up RB's history with Japan and Narita is very interesting and validating. Although, of course, they are not facts so feel free to discard them.

The only details I have about RB's travel related to Marion are:

17 June 1997
Richard Lloyd Westbury departs Aus to Japan
Passenger card says he intends to spend 30 days in Belgium

31 July 1997
Richard Lloyd Westbury arrives in Aus

RLW was his legal name at the time. But he was also known to use Federick de Hedervary (the name he always used at home and family life) and the aliases Fernand Remakel and Ric West. I'm sure there were more, these are just the ones we know of during 1996-1998 period.

 

[centred]

Yes there is a whole bunch alright.
It does tie in with the theory that he was running a coin theft operation and that of the family Flamme is connected to his fraudulent dealings with this in my opinion

I keep searching and am having no luck whatso ever ?

What am I doing wrong ?

 

[brjakj]

Ok can i clarify a couple things in my mind please ...

without the assumption part at the moment , these details show flight TO south Korea by FNMR but no detail of flight to the continent or the UK ?

The return flight is FROM Hong Kong but no details of flights to Hong Kong ?

It has been a long time since i heard the details , so maybe you just shared these parts of the trip and I assume you have other reasons to assume about the note paper from Japan which of course i understand he stayed at Narita , but other than that is there other flight details for FNMR ?

I personally don’t think Marion flew to or via Japan. I think when she met RB in the uk he either have her the paper or she took it from his bag to write the letter.

 

[centred]

The assumptions about Marion and Japan are very old. They were made years ago by sleuths here more knowledgable that I, when the letter was first revealed on the podcast, years before we knew about RB. They have nothing to do with RB. The fact the inquest is bringing up RB's history with Japan and Narita is very interesting and validating.

The only details I have about RB's travel related to Marion are:

17 June 1997
Richard Lloyd Westbury departs Aus to Japan
Passenger card says he intends to spend 30 days in Belgium

31 July 1997
Richard Lloyd Westbury arrives in Aus[/QUOTE

yes i understand the assumption and the latest connection ,

What i was trying to clarify is Marions other flight details to and from the Continent or the UK from and too Korea and Hong Kong ?
and i am gathering the travel was all in the Florabella passport ?

Sorry if it wasnt clear that is what i was seeking .