Australia Australia - Marion Barter, 51, missing after trip to UK, June 1997 #9

[ElaineS]

First time using this site, I have been asked to share the following in regards to what's happening at the moment,
Hi Elaine
If you would like to let them know the name on the QLD Drivers License is
Fernand Nocolas REMAKEL
it’s been noted a few times that he does change vowels

 

[Estelle]

They went to different branches too.
I wonder if this co insides with marion being questioned about.

Imo she did come back but she got wise and was detained somewhere until they had what they wanted.
They knew everything they had her passport probably all her important documents passwords.
She probably had more than any other victim had.
He only ever got 30k from gb
Stuff from JO. Potentially more but she got here before she was supposed too and was seen by other people.

Marion was going to expose them that's why it's different I think she knew about who the wife was.

Marion didn't know RB was married. You talk about Marion being detained somewhere so was she taken to Wollongbar and detained there briefly before the child/ren came home again then Marion met her demise there? Where else would they have detained her?

 

[Bibno]

We are still no wiser where he and JO stayed when leaving Colchester with the hire car and ending up in Dover/Deal. He didn’t want to admit he had been to East Sussex again.

He was extremely to avoid saying they had been in E Sussex.

His testimony was so confusing in the way he kept changing his story and switching between detailed knowledge and complete ignorance.

I think fraud and deception was his job, it was just what he did and what he knew how to do. I really wonder whether he has any victims in the UK. It seems so unlikely that he would be in any situation and not look for opportunities to do his ‘work’.

 

[Deleted member 249471]

First time using this site, I have been asked to share the following in regards to what's happening at the moment,
Hi Elaine
If you would like to let them know the name on the QLD Drivers License is
Fernand Nocolas REMAKEL
it’s been noted a few times that he does change vowels

Welcome and thank you!

 

[Deleted member 249471]

Daily reminder
Coroner: "You carried you underpants in your hand?"

*I needed that laugh and feel better already.

 

[Estelle]

interesting re not expecting her to be back in Oz at all. He gave JO a travel agent to contact and 2 flights she could book. is there an accomplice in the mix here as RB had severed contact?

I wonder if this travel agent was in England or Amsterdam? RB would have assumed that JO would have to go back to Amsterdam to collect her stored luggage and then catch a flight from Amsterdam home. The flights he gave were probably going to have been sold anyway and were just flights he picked out of the air. I have often thought RB had an accomplice and even thought it was the so-called "Dutch Dentist" that Marion told Sally about in a postcard.

 

[Estelle]

This "travel agent" could be the key to finding out what happened to Marion. An accomplice.

Yes. Maybe Marion was told to see this same travel agent/accomplice/Dutch Dentist?

 

[mishy66]

I don't understand how what myself and others have been doing for 3.5 years (reading every word, answering questions, and sharing our own work and research on this thread) is suddenly not considered 'working together' or collaborating

There is a bigger picture. Practically speaking, keeping one up-to-date official timeline that includes every person ever involved in this case, pinned to the thread is unrealistic and a legal nightmare.

Who will create it? Who is going to check it for accuracy? Who is going to add the source for every single piece of information listed, as is required by WS TOS? Who is going to update it whenever there is something new or wrong or irrelevant? Who will determine what facts are right, wrong and irrelevant? Will every sleuth be notified when changes are made? Or will each sleuth be responsible for keeping themselves updated with changes? (Sounds like what we're currently doing.)

Also, private threads are against the rules, so how will sleuths discuss the creation and maintenance of the document? Or will it all be openly posted in the thread? (Sounds like what we're currently doing.)

On top of that, having an official timeline 'endorsed' by WS would be a legal nightmare. As mentioned earlier, we can't go around officially declaring people as suspects and perpetrators. Calling someone out may severely impact the legal process and a conviction. Everything on here is speculation, IMO and MOO, so how much can we actually reveal in a public official document? Not much. Media do it but they only publish selected information, they are trained to use careful wording, and they get legal advice before publishing anything crime related.

Maybe enjoying the chats, continuing to collaborate, and keeping our own records is reasonable after all.

I am sorry if anyone feels lost and confused. We are all still very confused. Even the people who take good notes. The confusion is what inspired most of us to keep thorough notes and ensure we read pages we missed. Because there isn't, and never will be, once source of truth in true crime.

Exactly. Perfectly said. Thank you for all that you do!

 

[mishy66]

1. I predict that police have questioned their children about when their parents went overseas. What about the school holidays in 1997? Son might have said he wasn't living at home and daughter could have said that she went to a swimming camp so she stayed elsewhere. They then remember their mother going away for a short time to stay with a friend and their father going overseas then on business or to see his family.

2. IMO RB would have easily been able to organise another passport for DdH in another name using fake documents. Police asked her if she had ever changed her name? I found that very telling.

Yep. My thoughts exactly.

 

[Estelle]

I just cant see that happening at all. While she may have been embarrassed at her naivety, to just disappear of her own accord after returning home seems very unlikely. She would not have not come forward at her sons death if she was still alive, no matter how embarrassed she may have been. That is my belief anyways.

I agree with you. How could Marion "disappear" herself if all of her money has gone to him? You can be embarrassed for a few days or weeks but you eventually seek help. We need other people in life. If she took the money out of her own accord, why would she take all that money out in cash? It's safer in the bank whatever intention she had for it.

 

[Estelle]

Not sure if this is allowed but I wonder if we could create a folder on google docs and put the solid timelines, FACTS we know about the case in chronological order on there. So much stuff gets lost in the thread(s) and they are useful to refer back to. I know I can make a personal one just for myself but I think sometimes it's good to have something that others can edit and make corrections. We could also write out outlines of theories on there and others could annotate with aspects that would seem to correct/dispute the theory. Just a thought. DELETE IF NOT ALLOWED.

What a great idea!

 

[Estelle]

I'm still returning to the thought I posted in an earlier thread about the weirdness with LL dropping Marion off.

If we are to believe the flight docket (I can't remember where they came from?) that lists RB as leaving Aus a few days before Marion, why the secrecy? Was someone else involved and picking her up? Why would this have been?

LL would have seen the amount of bags she was taking, so it can't have been that. It could have been to do with her travelling from a different terminal, but that seems easy enough to explain as a connecting flight and not too noteworthy. It's just an element of the case that I can't shake.

1. I have assumed that LL dropped Marion off where she could catch an Airport Bus directly to the airport where she could get assistance with her bags. It was more convenient.
2. Parking at airports costs money and then you are not dropped at the terminal and have to carry bags from there.
3. If LL did park there, she would have helped Marion with the bags to where she checked in. Perhaps she did not want LL to know which flight she was catching. Did anyone know she was going to Seoul?
4. Some people wish to avoid the tears of saying goodbye at the airport.
5. There is some discrepancy on which date Marion flew on - 22nd or 23rd? Did Marion spend the night in a hotel there as she had to catch an early flight the next morning?

 

[Belleandsebastian]

I wonder if this travel agent was in England or Amsterdam? RB would have assumed that JO would have to go back to Amsterdam to collect her stored luggage and then catch a flight from Amsterdam home. The flights he gave were probably going to have been sold anyway and were just flights he picked out of the air. I have often thought RB had an accomplice and even thought it was the so-called "Dutch Dentist" that Marion told Sally about in a postcard.

A Dutch dentist... that’s interesting, as several people on her have actually noted that RB comes across as quite Dutch. He seemed to visit Amsterdam quite a bit too. I wonder if this accomplice came over to then UK from Amsterdam. Would explain why he made JO leave her luggage in Amsterdam too... hmm.

 

[Estelle]

Yes i understand this is a hard one to swallow and she did miss talking to him for his birthday in Oct 97 but had told Sally she would be out of contact for awhile in August and this is when Sally became concerned and then tried to find out why and then bank and police told her Marion wanted to start a new life .

I imagine when the money was being withdrawn in increments by Marion or someone posing as her for that matter that the bank may have queried the identity and change of name to verify her then it stands to reason this is when she had to explain her personal and private reasons and mentions she is starting a new life .

I am not sure at the moment when her son died but i do not discount that Marion may have passed by this time or is out of the country .I do not know .

What i find strange is the withdrawing the money in increments (as someone asked earlier why would you not just transfer this money to the other/another account ) ?

If it was my money i would have organized accessing MY money some other way than this major inconvenience ! ! It makes zero sense to me . The reasoning about missing out on the higher interest rate is ludicrous to me under the circumstances .

Yes I have never bought the idea of Marion being worried about the extra interest either. How much would it have been? Minimal IMO for all the extra inconvenience.

 

[Estelle]

Sorry for the long post... clarifying info about withdrawals and Owen's death.

During the inquest last year, it was revealed Marion's account had a restriction of only being able to withdraw a max of $5k per day.

Although the $5k withdrawn daily over 3.5 week is super suspicious, it is just as perplexing how she managed to withdraw $80k in one go. Normally, they only let you do that when you're buying a house. Otherwise, it gets flagged to be investigated for possible fraud and money laundering.

It appears none of the banks followed normal procedure as the amounts taken from Marion's account weren't normal behaviour and bank tellers are specifically trained to look for this kind of thing in order to prevent fraud.

We know there were many bank staff who have since done jail time for defrauding customers. Including people that worked at the banks were Marion's money was withdrawn. Their crimes are real but none of their crimes have yet been linked to Marion. It's possible RB had help from the inside in return for part of the money. We've talked about this extensively so you're welcome to use the search bar and google.

However, I'll repost notes from the inquest last year:
Graeme Smith, Commonwealth Bank (CBA) investigator

• Staff are trained to watch for customers withdrawing large amounts in small periods of time.
• Especially if it's not the customer’s normal branch (correct, it wasn't Marion's normal branch).
• Particularly if they went to the same teller (meaning the teller is dodgy), then it would trigger the process of a Suspicious Transaction Report (STR).
• An STR is made if $5k was withdrawn every day for just 3 days, let alone 3.5 weeks. Yet no STR was made.
• However, it wouldn’t be so noticable if the person visited multiple branches (as far as we know, they didn't, most of it was at Byron which wasn't Marion's branch).
• Withdrawing a large amount on one day, such as $80,000, is a huge red flag to the bank.
• The only time a large withdrawal won't cause alarm, is when the purpose was to buy a house.
• You could only withdraw up to $800 per day at an ATM or EFTPOS.
• Police never contacted the CBA investigator and records are long gone.
• Thinks it's very suspicious Marion vanished yet left $14,000 in her UK Barclays account. Hasn't seen that before.

David Martin, bank manager of Colonial in 1997

• Withdrawing amounts over $10k was suspicious and would be reported to AUSTRAC.
• Confirms that on 2 June 1997, after house was sold, her mortgage on the house was discharged, and Marion opened a high performing interest earning account.
• The account had a restriction of only being allowed to withdraw $5k a day.
• He does NOT recall police or Salvos ever getting in contact with him.
• And they did NOT have a securities officer at Ashmore, ever.

"It's possible RB had help from the inside in return for part of the money. "

Definitely IMO.

 

[Estelle]

Timeline
Aug - Sept 1997
Commonwealth Bank (CBA) $5k withdrawn daily for 3.5 weeks at Byron Bay (and 3 days in middle at Burleigh Heads branch), totalling between $85k to $120k.

15 October 1997
$80,000 withdrawn from Colonial State Bank, Ashmore.

18 October 1997
Owen’s birthday (Marion's son). He did not hear from Marion which is very unusual for Marion. No-one's heard from Marion in 3 months.

22 October 1997
Sally makes police report at Byron Bay.

2002
Owen dies by suicide.

I would like to know the date when these withdrawals began?

 

[Estelle]

my only question is, why didn’t Marion call Sally as soon as she got back to Australia?

IMO she was either detained by RB and DhD or she was dead.

 

[Estelle]

They would have had to have had a computer. I didn't believe that they both said they didn't have one for a second. Two teenage kids in the house, buying and selling properties, organising trips OS etc etc etc.

DdH did admit that she had a computer. Not sure when that was. There is a document where she claimed she was a Secretary. I think their children would have been able to tell them if and when there was a computer in the house. OR RB had one in his office space.

 

[TootsieFootsie]

Correct, in the 80s, there was no internet.
"Computers" common in homes were just game machines. Libraries in the 80s didn't have internet access.

1994 I got my first computer and went online. The two years before that I connected up to the World Wide Web.
Harvey Norman had a big thing in 1994 about this new thing called the Internet.
But it took years before it became commonplace for people to own one of these computers, let alone go online.
I only knew one other person who had an internet connection for several years after I got mine.

No one in Australia had computers in their homes in the 80's, in fact I can't think of a single friend or family member that had a computer in their home in the 90's up until 1997 when I left Australia.. When I returned to Australia in 2002 computers were more prevalent. If DdH had a computer in the home in 1997 I'll eat my hat.

 

[Estelle]

More mention of 'Coppenolle' on Noble Coins. This time from 2010.
"A long term client is offering his Roman and European coins (supplied with extensive handwritten notes) under his family name Coppenolle."
Sale 95 auction preface - News - Noble Numismatics

Edit: Search 'noble coins coppenolle' and theres a surprising amount that comes up.

Yes I think these coins could be part of the Flamme case.