Australia Australia - Marion Barter, 51, missing after trip to UK, June 1997 #9

[Estelle]

That is the thing... I dont think them coming back was the game plan in my opinion.

I think the left suitcases at the airports was to 1. have access to the victims documents and 2. have clothing to wear that matches them. Admittedly I have only seen the images of some victims of his but to me they are all of the same frame as his wife DdeH. Very easy to change hair /colour / style and clothing - not so easy to change body frames... I would not be a candidate for his scheme as I am very short and fine boned.

I agree. Documents and clothes. Victims all had dark hair at the time and same body shape as DdH.

Did you notice how he described Marion as wearing old-fashioned clothes with her hair in a fringe (he didn't use that word as he couldn't remember what it was called). Most men I know wouldn't have been so descriptive.

 

[Deleted member 249471]

Marion's possible timeline
Applying JOs experience to Marion...

Marion ships her belongings to RB's house as he offered to store her things until they return from their trip.
When she returns to Aus, she intends to buy a much smaller apartment by the water (she told Sally this once).

Once in the UK, RB tells Marion to place unneeded bags in Heathrow storage.
He tells her to leave all her Aus paperwork in there so it won't get stolen.
It includes her birth certificate, medicare, drivers licence, Aus bankcard and jewellery.
She only keeps her passport and Barclays card.

They hire a car and make stops as per postcards.
As usual, RB doesn't do much touristy stuff and sights seeing.
So Marion is bored and confused, but has plenty of time to wander around on her own and write postcards.
RB tells her they can't go on the Orient Express because he has business to do.

He checks her into an accommodation and leaves her alone for a few days.
He then calls Marion and claims he was robbed and is recovering in hospital for a few weeks.
In reality, he's back at Heathrow, taking Marion's bag full of clothes and documents.
He returns to Aus with the intention of leaving Marion stranded in the UK.
It's OK, she as $20k to get by on and she'll never find him upon her return because he isn't really FR.

His plan is, if Marion ever calls police, they'll confuse FR/Aus for FR/Lux (hence Lux lies on passenger cards)
It's great because he hates FR/Lux because he was MCs husband and RB is still infatuated with MC.
It's spiteful payback, essentially.

Marion, still in the UK, is suddenly very suspicious after RB's last phone call.
She suspect's he went back to Aus without her and that he might be trying to fleece her.

She calls Sally, and tells her she'll be busy for a while and to not expect contact.
She doesn't tell Sally the truth because she feels ashamed by how much this man tricked her.
She's also not 100% convinced? She wants to see him face-to-face. She wants to take care of it herself.
Marion buys herself a plane ticket and returns to Aus.

Back in Aus, RB starts withdrawing Marion's cash with the intention of disappearing.
He chose Byron because he knows a teller who accepts bribes.
Occasionally this teller works at Burleigh Heads and Ashmore.
RB and wife buy a car to make all the trips to the bank in a car no-one recognises as theirs.

Marion finds RB, she wants to call the police but there's a confrontation.
They use the car to make to make Marion disappear.
They have to sell the car now.

 

[TootsieFootsie]

No date was given as to when she acquired this computer so it could have been in more recent years.

DdH did admit that she had a computer. Not sure when that was. There is a document where she claimed she was a Secretary. I think their children would have been able to tell them if and when there was a computer in the house. OR RB had one in his office space.

 

[mishy66]

A Dutch dentist... that’s interesting, as several people on her have actually noted that RB comes across as quite Dutch. He seemed to visit Amsterdam quite a bit too. I wonder if this accomplice came over to then UK from Amsterdam. Would explain why he made JO leave her luggage in Amsterdam too... hmm.

Yes there is something in this . Amsterdam / Holland was mentioned quite a bit over the past week! And he does seem more Dutch to me too! Good theory!

 

[gymtonic]

I based my reasoning on the facts that

1. RB returned to Australia ARRIVING HERE VIA JAPAN? on 31st July, 1997 - two days before Marion ARRIVED. IS THIS AN ESTABLISHED FACT?

2. Marion phoned Sally on 1st August, 1997 so she was still alive then. RB was in Australia so he could not have caused her death then.

3. But where was Marion when she made that phone call? Sussex in England? OR During her stopover in Hong Kong on her way back.

My musings tonight:

If DH had flown to the UK (using another passport not in her name) in the school holidays and possibly been introduced as Mazz to Marion, IMO her role would have been to return to Australia using Marion's Florabella passport dressed in "old-fashioned clothes" with dark hair with a fringe. Photos could have been swapped in those days too. RB could have persuaded Marion (as he did with JO) to leave all her documents including her passport in a shared locker at Heathrow airport to which RB had the key. DH would not have had time to do away with Marion as she had to catch a flight. So IMO DH and RB had everything they needed to commit the frauds in Australia. But the problem is that Marion would have still been alive and able to report them when she later learned that her banks were drained. So if Marion was unaware that RB and DH had flown back to Australia, and made no more phone calls to Sally in the next week or so, I think that the Dutch dentist could have been a hitman paid by RB to end MB's life.

In this scenario, I think RB would have bought DH a return ticket which Marion did not know about and perhaps DH only stayed there a few days. I don't think Diane used Marion's ticket but then how did RB get Marion to fill in the Arrivals Card in advance unless she was coerced? Perhaps he is good at forging handwriting? What was filled in on that card has never made sense to me. Apart from the flight No being filled in by somebody else, I also noticed that the tick besides Married was also different.

I just can't imagine a Teacher like Marion agreeing to saying that she is only going to stay 3 (or was it 8?) days in Australia as it's a long return flight to take in a week. IMO I also think she would have taken her other passport and most of her ID may have still been in the name of Marion as she may not have had time to change it all if you are in a hurry to do everything Marion had to do at the last minute. Also the idea that you can only withdraw small amounts of $5,000 due to losing interest in a high interest account does not make sense if she was in a hurry to get her money. Surely the bank could have transferred all of it to her other account in the UK. Nobody takes cash out unless you are RB!

Putting that she was a Housewife living in Luxembourg is also strange as she does not seem to have gone there especially if his story is that he was going to help her to buy a school in the UK. Were they married at the hotel in Narita airport? It is a possibility as I read you can do that in one day. But was the marriage ever registered? I doubt it. I also can't imagine RB being with Marion for the whole time she was in the UK. His goal would have been to get her documents put in that other suitcase he told her to bring (with her winter clothes) into the locker at Heathrow airport and job was done once he had the key. He would have then abandoned her as soon as he felt he could saying he had business dealings to attend to in Luxembourg and would catch up with her when he could and go on the Orient Express with her later for their honeymoon. He then sends his friends, Mazz (DH) and the Dutch Dentist over there to meet Marion at her hotel.

These are just thoughts I have had tonight so please pick holes in them!

First time poster here, but have followed the podcast since the beginning and tuned into the inquest livestream and found this forum. I've tried to catch up with the previous threads but now can't remember where I saw this info now, but wasn't there a director of one of the companies linked to RB with the name Dorothea Maslowski (phonetic = Maz?). Just a thought with apologies for the vague back reference!

 

[mishy66]

Marion's possible timeline
Applying JOs experience to Marion...

Marion ships her belongings to RB's house as he offered to store her things until they return from their trip.
When she returns to Aus, she intends to buy a much smaller apartment by the water (she told Sally this once).

Once in the UK, RB tells Marion to place unneeded bags in Heathrow storage.
He tells her to leave all her Aus paperwork in there so it won't get stolen.
It includes her birth certificate, medicare, drivers licence, Aus bankcard and jewellery.
She only keeps her passport and Barclays card.

They hire a car and make stops as per postcards.
As usual, RB doesn't do much touristy stuff and sights seeing.
So Marion is bored and confused, but has plenty of time to wander around on her own and write postcards.
RB tells her they can't go on the Orient Express because he has business to do.

He checks her into an accommodation and leaves her alone for a few days.
He then calls Marion and claims he was robbed and is recovering in hospital for a few weeks.
In reality, he's back at Heathrow, taking Marion's bag full of clothes and documents.
He returns to Aus with the intention of leaving Marion stranded in the UK.
It's OK, she as $20k to get by on and she'll never find him upon her return because he isn't really FR.

His plan is, if Marion ever calls police, they'll confuse FR/Aus for FR/Lux (hence Lux lies on passenger cards)
It's great because he hates FR/Lux because he was MCs husband and RB is still infatuated with MC.
It's spiteful payback, essentially.

Marion, still in the UK, is suddenly very suspicious after RB's last phone call.
She suspect's he went back to Aus without her and that he might be trying to fleece her.

She calls Sally, and tells her she'll be busy for a while and to not expect contact.
She doesn't tell Sally the truth because she feels ashamed by how much this man tricked her.
She's also not 100% convinced? She wants to see him face-to-face. She wants to take care of it herself.
Marion buys herself a plane ticket and returns to Aus.

Back in Aus, RB starts withdrawing Marion's cash with the intention of disappearing.
He chose Byron because he knows a teller who accepts bribes.
Occasionally this teller works at Burleigh Heads and Ashmore.
RB and wife buy a car to make all the trips to the bank in a car no-one recognises as theirs.

Marion finds RB, she wants to call the police but there's a confrontation.
They use the car to make to make Marion disappear.
They have to sell the car now.

UGGHHH. I have made my own theory, gone back to other peoples theories and lost sight of my own theory, seesawed so much my brain hurts but reading this I think closes the case for me.
There are some details I wasn't aware of being new to this site and all the information at hand.
SO this theory is the most logical and easily explains what happened...
Can you just hand this over to LC and lets get it to trial

 

[mishy66]

I agree. Documents and clothes. Victims all had dark hair at the time and same body shape as DdH.

Did you notice how he described Marion as wearing old-fashioned clothes with her hair in a fringe (he didn't use that word as he couldn't remember what it was called). Most men I know wouldn't have been so descriptive.

Yes I remember him trying to hand gesture this. It was a moment that I connected to DdeH being a potential partner in crime.

 

[Belleandsebastian]

Marion's possible timeline
Applying JOs experience to Marion...

Marion ships her belongings to RB's house as he offered to store her things until they return from their trip.
When she returns to Aus, she intends to buy a much smaller apartment by the water (she told Sally this once).

Once in the UK, RB tells Marion to place unneeded bags in Heathrow storage.
He tells her to leave all her Aus paperwork in there so it won't get stolen.
It includes her birth certificate, medicare, drivers licence, Aus bankcard and jewellery.
She only keeps her passport and Barclays card.

They hire a car and make stops as per postcards.
As usual, RB doesn't do much touristy stuff and sights seeing.
So Marion is bored and confused, but has plenty of time to wander around on her own and write postcards.
RB tells her they can't go on the Orient Express because he has business to do.

He checks her into an accommodation and leaves her alone for a few days.
He then calls Marion and claims he was robbed and is recovering in hospital for a few weeks.
In reality, he's back at Heathrow, taking Marion's bag full of clothes and documents.
He returns to Aus with the intention of leaving Marion stranded in the UK.
It's OK, she as $20k to get by on and she'll never find him upon her return because he isn't really FR.

His plan is, if Marion ever calls police, they'll confuse FR/Aus for FR/Lux (hence Lux lies on passenger cards)
It's great because he hates FR/Lux because he was MCs husband and RB is still infatuated with MC.
It's spiteful payback, essentially.

Marion, still in the UK, is suddenly very suspicious after RB's last phone call.
She suspect's he went back to Aus without her and that he might be trying to fleece her.

She calls Sally, and tells her she'll be busy for a while and to not expect contact.
She doesn't tell Sally the truth because she feels ashamed by how much this man tricked her.
She's also not 100% convinced? She wants to see him face-to-face. She wants to take care of it herself.
Marion buys herself a plane ticket and returns to Aus.

Back in Aus, RB starts withdrawing Marion's cash with the intention of disappearing.
He chose Byron because he knows a teller who accepts bribes.
Occasionally this teller works at Burleigh Heads and Ashmore.
RB and wife buy a car to make all the trips to the bank in a car no-one recognises as theirs.

Marion finds RB, she wants to call the police but there's a confrontation.
They use the car to make to make Marion disappear.
They have to sell the car now.

I think this theory is very good. Yes, I'm sure RB was thrilled when he heard that TLV team had confronted FR. He must have thought he was SO clever. I bet he and DdH were following along and thinking they got away with it all.

 

[MrsWattle]

RB said his daughter was trying out for swimming 1996 Atlanta Olympics. She would have been 14 or 15years old ?

 

[Estelle]

I respectfully disagree about how similar DDH looks to Marion. I don't rule out that a lazy bank teller might have taken brown hair and a vague resemblance for granted, but Marion has a long, distinct face shape and a slim nose that don't look anything like DDH imo. I'm really good with faces though (I can really easily match up photos of children to their adult selves etc.) so I may be falsely assuming that most people would see the same things that I do.

We haven't seen a picture of DDH during that time, yet, or even a clear photo of her separate from the trial. I wish we could find one. A fluctuation in weight etc. might change things slightly but it wouldn't change the structure of her face.

This is just how it appears to me though, and as I said, I'm not ruling it out.

One idea concerning this issue is that I read that in those days you could simply just change the photo on another person's passport.

 

[Deleted member 249471]

I would like to know the date when these withdrawals began?

You, me and everyone else! We will probably never know as it has never been official information.

The only reason we know about it is because someone broke the rules… Sally called CBA telebanking to see if there was activity on mum’s account from the UK. Telebanking broke protocol and revealed that if Marion was in the UK, then someone was draining her account in Byron.

According to CBA at 2021 inquest, no CBA records remain from that time and they can’t prove these alleged incidents ever happened.

Also, it doesn't appear as if Byron police ever enquired at the Byron bank, only Colonial Ashmore. If they did, they never told Sally the outcome. The original police file for Marion was lost. Only very vague police diary records exist and refer to Colonial but don't mention anything about the Byron withdrawals at all.

Funny because Byron bank is near Byron police and both far away from Ashmore. Had GC walked his little legs over to the bank around the corner and followed up on Sally's enquiries (she specifically asked about Byron bank not Ashmore bank), then Marion's missing person case would have been solved in Oct/Nov 1997! But for whatever reason, it didn't happen, and here we are.

It seems to me that a very big effort was made to conceal those Byron withdrawals, and Sally (and the public) was never supposed to know about them IMO

 

[MrsWattle]

The Colonial Bank tellers in Byron Bay were not familiar with a Marion Barter in 1997 because her usual bank was Ashmore.

D DeH possibly had some of Marion's clothes and a family car.

Meanwhile RB had a new white car and was possibly with Marion travelling out of the local area.? Evans head or somewhere else? They could have been camping somewhere or looking for seaside house to purchase.

She used her Medicare card in Grafton?

 

[ruby925]

Marion's possible timeline
Applying JOs experience to Marion...

Marion ships her belongings to RB's house as he offered to store her things until they return from their trip.
When she returns to Aus, she intends to buy a much smaller apartment by the water (she told Sally this once).

Once in the UK, RB tells Marion to place unneeded bags in Heathrow storage.
He tells her to leave all her Aus paperwork in there so it won't get stolen.
It includes her birth certificate, medicare, drivers licence, Aus bankcard and jewellery.
She only keeps her passport and Barclays card.

They hire a car and make stops as per postcards.
As usual, RB doesn't do much touristy stuff and sights seeing.
So Marion is bored and confused, but has plenty of time to wander around on her own and write postcards.
RB tells her they can't go on the Orient Express because he has business to do.

He checks her into an accommodation and leaves her alone for a few days.
He then calls Marion and claims he was robbed and is recovering in hospital for a few weeks.
In reality, he's back at Heathrow, taking Marion's bag full of clothes and documents.
He returns to Aus with the intention of leaving Marion stranded in the UK.
It's OK, she as $20k to get by on and she'll never find him upon her return because he isn't really FR.

His plan is, if Marion ever calls police, they'll confuse FR/Aus for FR/Lux (hence Lux lies on passenger cards)
It's great because he hates FR/Lux because he was MCs husband and RB is still infatuated with MC.
It's spiteful payback, essentially.

Marion, still in the UK, is suddenly very suspicious after RB's last phone call.
She suspect's he went back to Aus without her and that he might be trying to fleece her.

She calls Sally, and tells her she'll be busy for a while and to not expect contact.
She doesn't tell Sally the truth because she feels ashamed by how much this man tricked her.
She's also not 100% convinced? She wants to see him face-to-face. She wants to take care of it herself.
Marion buys herself a plane ticket and returns to Aus.

Back in Aus, RB starts withdrawing Marion's cash with the intention of disappearing.
He chose Byron because he knows a teller who accepts bribes.
Occasionally this teller works at Burleigh Heads and Ashmore.
RB and wife buy a car to make all the trips to the bank in a car no-one recognises as theirs.

Marion finds RB, she wants to call the police but there's a confrontation.
They use the car to make to make Marion disappear.
They have to sell the car now.

MOO this all def fits the pattern that has been developed in court, although I think Marion was under the spell until after she withdrew all the money (so no accomplice required). .. or she withdrew all the money secretly without letting RB know she was back in the country because she had already rumbled him.

 

[brjakj]

First time poster here, but have followed the podcast since the beginning and tuned into the inquest livestream and found this forum. I've tried to catch up with the previous threads but now can't remember where I saw this info now, but wasn't there a director of one of the companies linked to RB with the name Dorothea Maslowski (phonetic = Maz?). Just a thought with apologies for the vague back reference!

good find! Which company was this?

 

[Deleted member 249471]

For those who missed my luggage theory from earlier...

Why does he make victims store luggage at the airport?

He can't get caught with women's jewellery, title deeds, IDs and cash in HIS bag amongst HIS clothing, as that is very suspicious and is akin to being caught red handed. It's evidence.

So he keeps all the stolen goods in a separate bag with women's clothing. If questioned, he comes up with an excuse – I mistook the bag for my own, sorry! They can't prove anything. They can't arrest him for anything.

I bet he's done this a thousand times to transport stolen goods and money internationally. Like the Flamme coins. IMO

 

[poppypopcorn]

*IF account had have been in Remakel and he had drivers license as Remakel then he as her husband could access her account in the uK.. *

No. Even in the 1990s only the person named on that account could make transactions on it. You could always pay money into an account owned by someone else, but not make withdrawals. Even if you were married. The only exception to this is a parent operating a child's account for someone under 16.

*The ones he returns to repeatedly... is it possible he is visiting banks, safety deposit boxes and storage lockers? Where he keeps stolen money and goods from previous scams?*

Well anything's possible. But these places are small provincial towns with small high-street banks. They will have retail banks as would any other tow and probably would offer safekeeping for valuables in the vault. Self-storage places really started up in the UK in the 90s, there probably would have been one in the larger places like Tunbridge Wells or Hastings but these were for storing household goods not valuables.

*Before I get even further behind, I just want to check that it's been noted that Jane Austen is buried in Winchester Cathedral. I haven't heard how that location came up?*

Yes, she is buried at Winchester Cathedral and her former house at Chawton near Alton is now a museum (and was in the 90s)

*Unfortunately, the podcast and the sleuths here have NO flight records of travel outside of Aus as we don't have access to those records from overseas*

Back in the 90s, the UK was not recording people who left the UK - just people who arrived. Marion would have had her passport stamped when she arrived at Heathrow. She would have needed a passport to board a ferry at Dover or Harwich, or get on the Eurostar train to Lille. But it may not have been stamped. There will be no departing passengers cards from the UK. The man of many names did not appear to use flights to travel between SE England and Belgium or the Netherlands - ferry only.

 

[Deleted member 249471]

To be honest my Marion timeline isn't perfect. There are many things it doesn't explain and that don't makes sense. I don't know if all of it will ever make sense. I just wanted to use what we know from JO and attempt to create a similar story for Marion, to see if it fits. Happy to hear other perspectives and evidence to the contrary.

 

[Estelle]

it is not a matter off affording a computer , in the 90s it just was no where near the norm for many of us . I was a really slow starter and installed my first one in 2005 and still had many family and friends not bothering but of course now one has very little option to be off grid , off line .

So no i do not think or believe they had access in the 90s ....we did things very differently , we had land lines and maybe a fax for business type dealings

There are exceptions as I had a computer in 1997 as I was a constant traveller and always did my own bookings for flights and accommodation online and even listed on a US website to meet men. In 1999, I met a doctor (Neurologist) from Montreal who after a few phone calls. and my photo, even sent me $2,000 to pay for my trip to meet him there. I flew from Sydney to London via Bangkok then Montreal where we spent Christmas then he took me to the island of Saint Vincent in the Caribbean where he was lecturing in Neurology so I went to his lectures. We were given house with a maid who did the cooking and cleaning. However, I insisted that his daughter and I share a bedroom as a chaperone. As a gift for him, I paid a Skipper to sail us to the island of Mustique for the day. Unfortunately, I found out there that he was an alcoholic so I ended the relationship. I then flew via Puerto Rico to San Francisco where I did a course in EFT and then to Sydney.

This is why I relate to Marion as I was also divorced and around her age, I think now of the risks I took.

 

[poppypopcorn]

On the "Dutch" thing - Belgium is a fairly small country. The northern half is mainly Dutch speaking, the southern half French speaking. It is VERY common for highly educated Belgians to speak both. And English. Brussels, where RB says he lived/worked for several years is in the Dutch speaking bit.

Wouters is a Dutch name, not a French one. De Hedevary isn't a French name either - they wouldn't pronounce the initial H and a French spaeaker would say "de edd-e-vary"not "de head-e-vary". There are of course Belgians who have moved around the country people with French names in the Dutch speaking part and the other way round. So yes, I would imagine RB speaks pretty decent Dutch as well as French and English.

To me, he sounds mostly French/Australian, but there is a bit of Dutch in there too.

 

[Estelle]

The assumptions about Marion and Japan are very old. They were made years ago by sleuths here more knowledgable than I, when the letter was first revealed on the podcast, years before we knew about RB. They have nothing to do with RB. The fact the inquest is bringing up RB's history with Japan and Narita is very interesting and validating. Although, of course, they are not facts so feel free to discard them.

The only details I have about RB's travel related to Marion are:

17 June 1997
Richard Lloyd Westbury departs Aus to Japan
Passenger card says he intends to spend 30 days in Belgium

31 July 1997
Richard Lloyd Westbury arrives in Aus

RLW was his legal name at the time. But he was also known to use Federick de Hedervary (the name he always used at home and family life) and the aliases Fernand Remakel and Ric West. I'm sure there were more, these are just the ones we know of during 1996-1998 period.

I thought RB flew out in one name and flew back using another.