Australia Australia - Marion Barter, 51, missing after trip to UK, June 1997 #9

[mishy66]

I'd like to know more about the Dupont who came from Noumea.

arrived 1970 - last in Aust 2 months

 

[StarrChance]

I thought I’d search some arrivals with FDH names he said he had used.
Starting with Bernard Dupont arrived 30th April 1970 on a flight from Noumea to Sydney

the timeline works.. after IK and before Jail

*not saying this is him just searched the name this is the only 1 for this name.

Edit - this person says he is a resident and was out of Oz for 2 months.. timeline works
View digital copy

Your wish is my command Estelle
I could only find one record in a election roll for this name in 1972
Ignore the V Gerald as it’s a mistake
The address is
7 Gerald Ave, Roseville
Coy dir (company director?)

Name: Bernard V Gerald Dupont
Gender: Male
Electoral Date: 1972
Electoral Place: Roseville, Bradfield, New South Wales, Australia
Residence Address: Ave, Rsvle 20b9

The other is a death record in France, that has the same birthdate


Name: Bernard Jean Paul Joseph Dupont
Gender: homme (Male)
Death Age: 65
Birth Date: 4 mars 1944 (4 Mar 1944)
Birth Place: Arcey, Doubs
Death Date: 1 sept. 2009 (1 Sep 2009)
Death Place: Grasse, Alpes-Maritimes, France
Certificate Number: 000000643
URL: Fichier des personnes décédées (Décès) - data.gouv.fr

 

[Belleandsebastian]

Apparently they did have some problems with stowaways! I saw this in a forum about The Chusan.
Still, he couldn’t have been on the ship in the timeline he gave as he was registering the birth of Ilona’s child, right?

 

[Deleted member 249471]

Two questions:
1. What is MJR's DOB?

2. When and where did WW and IK have their baby? I may have misunderstood...I thought inquest said it was in Aus, before they departed on 15 Feb 1970, as the baby was there at the airport?

And therefore, Casselden proved WW did not meet DW on the Chusan as he was with IK in Aus as baby was being born and they left Aus with the baby?

 

[Belleandsebastian]

It is also possible that FDH and DDH were on the boat under different names/passports. All they would have to do is steal someone’s passport, right?

 

[Estelle]

Your wish is my command Estelle
I could only find one record in a election roll for this name in 1972
Ignore the V Gerald as it’s a mistake
The address is
7 Gerald Ave, Roseville
Coy dir (company director?)

Name: Bernard V Gerald Dupont
Gender: Male
Electoral Date: 1972
Electoral Place: Roseville, Bradfield, New South Wales, Australia
Residence Address: Ave, Rsvle 20b9

The other is a death record in France, that has the same birthdate


Name: Bernard Jean Paul Joseph Dupont
Gender: homme (Male)
Death Age: 65
Birth Date: 4 mars 1944 (4 Mar 1944)
Birth Place: Arcey, Doubs
Death Date: 1 sept. 2009 (1 Sep 2009)
Death Place: Grasse, Alpes-Maritimes, France
Certificate Number: 000000643
URL: Fichier des personnes décédées (Décès) - data.gouv.fr

Thanks. I really don't think RB would have returned to Australia until after May 1974 when he left prison to some time in 1975.

 

[Deleted member 249471]

Clarifying that IK did not arrive in Aus with her parents. Her file has a another document saying she arrived with her parents in Belgium from Hungary. Perhaps people are confusing that with her arriving in Aus.

Also, IK arrived in Aus on 22 May 1969. People are confusing this with her 11 May birthday. The first document in her file has both dates in same sentence.

 

[Estelle]

Two questions:
1. What is MJR's DOB?

2. When and where did WW and IK have their baby? I may have misunderstood...I thought inquest said it was in Aus, before they departed on 15 Feb 1970, as the baby was there at the airport?

And therefore, Casselden proved WW did not meet DW on the Chusan as he was with IK in Aus as baby was being born and they left Aus with the baby?

I definitely agree with you. But why people prefer to think that DdH and RB could have been telling the truth with their Chusan story is beyond me!

Yes IW and WW had their baby in January, 1970 and left Australia together with baby to Belgium in February, 1970 and they "could not be in two places at once."

I just found MJRead on one of the timelines that someone posted up and then speculated that RB could have been MJR. Not sure of his date of birth.

 

[Deleted member 249471]

DOBs
9 July 1939 – Willy David Wouters, Belgium
2 Jan 1945 – Roger Lauzoney, Morroco
11 May 1946 – Ilona Kinczel, Hungary
16 April 1951 – Dianne Walker, Aus, to Peggy and Gordon

Timeline (condensed)
1959-64 – WW allegedly Gendarmerie (Belgian military police force)
1968 – WW recuperating from disabling injuries allegedly meets Marion in Swiss hotel

17 Mar 1969 – letter inviting IK to depart for Aus on 16 April
3 April 1969 – IK asked to postpone departure for Aus until 19 May
10 May 1969 – Alleged marriage date between IK and WW in Belgium
22 May 1969 – IK arrives Aus, Sydney (single)

24 May 1969 – WW arrives to Perth, Aus from London (single)
2 Oct 1969 – WW granted residence in Sydney as is married to IK before their arrival to Aus

Dec 1969 – WW claims he met DW in a hotel before boarding Chusan
Jan-Mar 1970 –DW claims she meet WW on the Chusan sailing Southampton to Sydney

Jan 1970 – WW and IK have baby
15 Feb 1970 –IK and WW depart with baby from Sydney Aus to Belgium (status divorced)

1970 – IK marries MJR in her native Hungary
1971 – IK birth of daughter ER

9 Dec 1971 – WW 4 years prison in France
1971 – at inquest, RB claims he arrived in Aus for 2nd time and stayed with Walker family for 5-6 weeks, then left to see family overseas but was arrested and did jail time.
1973 – IK birth of son CR

21 May 1974 – WW discharged from prison
May 1974 – at inquest, RB claims he arrived in Aus for 3rd time
1974-1976 – Immigration suspects WW arrived in Aus but no records found, next thing we know, he is changing name and marrying DW in Feb 1976

1976 – IK arrives in Aus
12 Feb 1976 – WW changes name to FDdH
20 Feb 1976 – FDdH marries DW
13 Jul 1978 – IK died in St Kilda, VIC Aus, plaque build-up lead to infraction (heart attack)

 

[Deleted member 249471]

Given this timeline, it seems to me that RB is trying to completely erase IK from his timeline.

He claims he arrived in Aus first time with DW in 1970. Second time in 1971. Third time in 1974.

Hhahahaha... until Casselden made him confirm he arrived with IK, had a baby and left Aus at the same time her purports to be with DW.

The only way the Chusan or stowaway story could be true, is if there were TWO of him. One with DW and the other with IK.

 

[mishy66]

Clarifying that IK did not arrive in Aus with her parents. Her file has a another document saying she arrived with her parents in Belgium from Hungary. Perhaps people are confusing that with her arriving in Aus.

Also, IK arrived in Aus on 22 May 1969. People are confusing this with her 11 May birthday. The first document in her file has both dates in same sentence.

Yes I think this is why some are saying she arrived with her parents.

Yes agree re the First doco.

 

[mishy66]

I definitely agree with you. But why people prefer to think that DdH and RB could have been telling the truth with their Chusan story is beyond me!

Yes IW and WW had their baby in January, 1970 and left Australia together with baby to Belgium in February, 1970 and they "could not be in two places at once."

I just found MJRead on one of the timelines that someone posted up and then speculated that RB could have been MJR. Not sure of his date of birth.

I think you speculated RB could be MJR

"How could Ilona who has a newborn baby meet and marry someone with an English sounding name the same year that she arrived in Europe to stay with her parents because there was not enough time to get a divorce? IMO WW changed his name to Michael J Reid when he married Ilona in 1970 overseas so that Australian govt would not know when he returned'.

 

[KittensAugustus]

There is an interesting file that is restricted access in National Archives. Item details (naa.gov.au)
Details: DUPONT Bernard born 4 March 1944
Title: General Assisted Passage Scheme, Special Passage Assistance Program and Netherlands Australia Migration agreements selection documents, annual single number series
Contents Dates: 01 Jan 1968 - 31 Dec 1973
Agency:

• 01 Jan 1968 - 17 Dec 1971
  CA 1452, Migrant Reception and Training Centre, Bonegilla [Victoria]
  
  
• 01 Jan 1971 - 31 Dec 1973
  CA 51, Department of Immigration, Central Office

Function: Documents completed for each migrant include: a medical report, a signed agreement between the migrant and the Commonwealth Government concerning the conditions of migration, processing record, a questionnaire concerning trade or professional qualifications and an application for assisted passage.

 

[mishy66]

DOBs
9 July 1939 – Willy David Wouters, Belgium
2 Jan 1945 – Roger Lauzoney, Morroco
11 May 1946 – Ilona Kinczel, Hungary
16 April 1951 – Dianne Walker, Aus, to Peggy and Gordon

Timeline (condensed)
1959-64 – WW allegedly Gendarmerie (Belgian military police force)
1968 – WW recuperating from disabling injuries allegedly meets Marion in Swiss hotel

17 Mar 1969 – letter inviting IK to depart for Aus on 16 April
3 April 1969 –IK asked to postpone departure for Aus until 19 May
10 May 1969 – Alleged marriage date between IK and WW in Brussels
22 May 1969 – IK arrives Aus, Sydney (single)

24 May 1969 – WW arrives to Perth, Aus from London (single)
2 Oct 1969 – WW granted residence in Sydney as is married to IK before their arrival to Aus

Dec 1969 – WW claims met DW in a hotel before boarding Chusan
Jan-Mar 1970 –DW claims meeting WW on the Chusan sailing Southampton to Sydney

Jan 1970 – WW and IK have baby
15 Feb 1970 –IK and WW depart with baby from Sydney Aus to Belgium (status divorced)

1970 – IK marries MJR in her native Hungary
1971 – IK birth of daughter ER

9 Dec 1971 – WW 4 years prison in France
1971 – at inquest, RB claims he arrived in Aus for 2nd time and stayed with Walker family for 5-6 weeks, then left to see family overseas but was arrested and did jail time.
1973 – IK birth of son CR

21 May 1974 – WW discharged from prison
May 1974 – at inquest, RB claims he arrived in Aus for 3rd time
1974-1976 – Immigration suspects WW arrived in Aus but no records found, next thing we know, he is changing name and marrying DW in Feb 1976

1976 – IK arrives in Aus
12 Feb 1976 – WW changes name to FDdH
20 Feb 1976 – FDdH marries DW
13 Jul 1978 – IK died in St Kilda, VIC Aus, plaque build-up lead to infraction (heart attack)

EWR birthdate is January 1970 - born in Sydney Australia
I think you have her down twice here = 1970 and 1971

 

[Pineconemind]

It is also possible that FDH and DDH were on the boat under different names/passports. All they would have to do is steal someone’s passport, right?

After reading your comment, I had a look back through the Chusan Manifest for Disembarkations in Sydney 1970 and as I was scrolling through and came across this:-

The address is listed next to a Mrs S & Mstr P Mercer 299 Military Road, Dover Heights. This address looked familiar to me.

DdeH & FD DdeH registered address in the 1980 cenus records is 287 Military Road, Dover Heights.

Of course I google mapped it and they are almost across the road from one another.

I know its not exact and 10 years apart, but still a bit weird!

 

[Deleted member 249471]

It is possible IK and WW didn't marry and simply forged a document for the purpose of residency.
But it is also possible they DID marry and lied saying they were single, so as to be permitted to Aus more easily.
Either way, I believe IK was another victim of RB.

Also, regarding IK's death, it is completely normal for a Coroner to not have an inquest. Most deaths don't have an inquest. Most deaths are not even reported to Coroner. Only when someone dies of a violent or unexpected death.

IK dying so young with a heart issue would warrant her death going through Coroner, because she wasn't obviously ill and on her way out. But an inquest is only needed for high profile and highly suspect deaths.

It's still possible she DID have a car accident (as RB said). However the 'cause of death' will never be 'car crash', it's typically trauma, haemorrhaging, or heart failure, etc. So both 'car crash' and 'myocardial ischemia' can be correct at the same time.

 

[mishy66]

There is an interesting file that is restricted access in National Archives. Item details (naa.gov.au)
Details: DUPONT Bernard born 4 March 1944
Title: General Assisted Passage Scheme, Special Passage Assistance Program and Netherlands Australia Migration agreements selection documents, annual single number series
Contents Dates: 01 Jan 1968 - 31 Dec 1973
Agency:

• 01 Jan 1968 - 17 Dec 1971
  CA 1452, Migrant Reception and Training Centre, Bonegilla [Victoria]
  
  
• 01 Jan 1971 - 31 Dec 1973
  CA 51, Department of Immigration, Central Office

Function: Documents completed for each migrant include: a medical report, a signed agreement between the migrant and the Commonwealth Government concerning the conditions of migration, processing record, a questionnaire concerning trade or professional qualifications and an application for assisted passage.

Yes this is the one someone found yesterday.
It is interesting!

 

[Pineconemind]

I think you speculated RB could be MJR

"How could Ilona who has a newborn baby meet and marry someone with an English sounding name the same year that she arrived in Europe to stay with her parents because there was not enough time to get a divorce? IMO WW changed his name to Michael J Reid when he married Ilona in 1970 overseas so that Australian govt would not know when he returned'.

I wonder if someone could help me re: MJR. How do we think it is spelled:-

Read, Reed or Reid?

I cant for the life of me find any records that have been posted about MJR.

Sorry if this has been covered already, I think I am drowning in all the info!

 

[mishy66]

After reading your comment, I had a look back through the Chusan Manifest for Disembarkations in Sydney 1970 and as I was scrolling through and came across this:-

The address is listed next to a Mrs S & Mstr P Mercer 299 Military Road, Dover Heights. This address looked familiar to me.

DdeH & FD DdeH registered address in the 1980 cenus records is 287 Military Road, Dover Heights.

Of course I google mapped it and they are almost across the road from one another.

I know its not exact and 10 years apart, but still a bit weird!

In this story of WW nothing is a coincidence I am going with !
ha!

Probs the parents went with them for a holiday ?!

 

[Deleted member 249471]

EWR birthdate is January 1970 - born in Sydney Australia
I think you have her down twice here = 1970 and 1971

Sorry if I misunderstood... didn't IK have THREE kids?

In Australia
Jan 1970 – WW and IK have baby (1)
15 Feb 1979 – WW IK depart Aus with baby, status divorced
9 Dec 1971 – WW in prison for 4 years

In Hungary
1971 – IK marries MJR
1971 – IK birth of daughter ER (2)
1973 – IK birth of son CR (3) (WW is in prison)

21 May 1974 – WW discharged from prison
1976 – IK back in Aus

Please correct me if I'm mistaken I'm going off a mix of timelines other people posted, as well as my inquest notes. Just trying to figure it out.