Australia Australia - Marion Barter, 51, missing after trip to UK, June 1997 #9

[Meligator]

Do we know if MJR was ever in AU? They were married in Hungary, but was he from AU and/or did he return to AU with IK? It is possible she met him outside AU and she returned to AU without him (separated?)

 

[Belleandsebastian]

After reading your comment, I had a look back through the Chusan Manifest for Disembarkations in Sydney 1970 and as I was scrolling through and came across this:-

The address is listed next to a Mrs S & Mstr P Mercer 299 Military Road, Dover Heights. This address looked familiar to me.

DdeH & FD DdeH registered address in the 1980 cenus records is 287 Military Road, Dover Heights.

Of course I google mapped it and they are almost across the road from one another.

I know its not exact and 10 years apart, but still a bit weird!

Interesting! It’s is weird! Yes, searching the various addresses they have given is a good strategy.

 

[Estelle]

Given this timeline, it seems to me that RB is trying to completely erase IK from his timeline.

He claims he arrived in Aus first time with DW in 1970. Second time in 1971. Third time in 1974.

Hhahahaha... until Casselden made him confirm he arrived with IK, had a baby and left Aus at the same time her purports to be with DW.

The only way the Chusan or stowaway story could be true, is if there were TWO of him. One with DW and the other with IK.

I agree, for some reason RB has made up this Chusan story to delete Ilona from his life completely. At one stage I even wondered if he murdered her but they were in two different places when she died.

 

[Estelle]

Yes I think this is why some are saying she arrived with her parents.

Yes agree re the First doco.

I would like to speculate that IR returned to Melbourne, Australia from Belgium with her parents in 1976 and when she died, they looked after the children.

 

[Meligator]

Two questions:
1. What is MJR's DOB?

2. When and where did WW and IK have their baby? I may have misunderstood...I thought inquest said it was in Aus, before they departed on 15 Feb 1970, as the baby was there at the airport?

And therefore, Casselden proved WW did not meet DW on the Chusan as he was with IK in Aus as baby was being born and they left Aus with the baby?

it proves they weren’t on Chusan in in 1970. But then RB changed his testimony saying it was likely early 1971 when they left (that the ship was supposed to leave late 1970, but there was a delay). This is possibly accurate as Chusan did leave UK in early 1971 & arrived in AU on Feb/March 1971, continuing on to UK in April 1971.

 

[mishy66]

It is possible IK and WW didn't marry and simply forged a document for the purpose of residency.
But it is also possible they DID marry and lied saying they were single, so as to be permitted to Aus more easily.
Either way, I believe IK was another victim of RB.

Also, regarding IK's death, it is completely normal for a Coroner to not have an inquest. Most deaths don't have an inquest. Most deaths are not even reported to Coroner. Only when someone dies of a violent or unexpected death.

IK dying so young with a heart issue would warrant her death going through Coroner, because she wasn't obviously ill and on her way out. But an inquest is only needed for high profile and highly suspect deaths.

It's still possible she DID have a car accident (as RB said). However the 'cause of death' will never be 'car crash', it's typically trauma, haemorrhaging, or heart failure, etc. So both 'car crash' and 'myocardial ischemia' can be correct at the same time.

I agree @Peralta she was another victim of RB in my books.

On her Medical Cert it only states Thorax problems. Yes maybe this is the first time in his life he told a true story re the car accident ha!

 

[Deleted member 249471]

Sorry if I misunderstood... didn't IK have THREE kids?

In Australia
Jan 1970 – WW and IK have baby (1)
15 Feb 1979 – WW IK depart Aus with baby, status divorced
9 Dec 1971 – WW in prison for 4 years

In Hungary
1971 – IK marries MJR
1971 – IK birth of daughter ER (2)
1973 – IK birth of son CR (3) (WW is in prison)

21 May 1974 – WW discharged from prison
1976 – IK back in Aus

Please correct me if I'm mistaken I'm going off a mix of timelines other people posted, as well as my inquest notes. Just trying to figure it out.

At least we know WW is not the father of IK's son CR born 1973, as WW was in prison!

 

[Meligator]

I keep thinking about how RB described MB grabbing his neck (insatiable sexually), and wondering if he used those words because there was some actual neck grabbing, but in a more aggressive, not sexy time way—and not necessarily by Marion. Just seemed oddly specific description of behavior.

 

[KiwiNZ]

It was an odd question but on the 3rd day of RB on stand he mentioned they met at station snd had dinner and I think I recall Asian restaurant? So I think at some stage his web of bs to police he has mentioned Korean food.. why? Because he has been following this case long before they knocked on his door.. he knew her card had Korea on it IMO

Totally agree - but my thought is the police contacted him on the 8th of June, he called them on the 9th and went and "made a statement?" he then had until October when he made the 2nd statement - did he do the research ( podcast / online) in that time and that is why he wants the 9th of June statement voided by saying he never made one..

Rather than him of followed the case prior to the 8th of June, I am wondering if he followed after the 8th of June

I would love to know what he said on the 9th of June and how that differed from what he said in October

 

[Deleted member 249471]

I keep thinking about how RB described MB grabbing his neck (insatiable sexually), and wondering if he used those words because there was some actual neck grabbing, but in a more aggressive, not sexy time way—and not necessarily by Marion. Just seemed oddly specific description of behavior.

Hahha, it's insane. He actually said she JUMPED on his neck. And the Coroner made him repeat it so he clarified and said it again. JUMPED on his neck. Ahahahaha. How could any woman jump on the neck of a man who is 6 foot 2? In a hotel lobby?!

 

[mishy66]

Sorry if I misunderstood... didn't IK have THREE kids?

In Australia
Jan 1970 – WW and IK have baby (1)
15 Feb 1979 – WW IK depart Aus with baby, status divorced
9 Dec 1971 – WW in prison for 4 years

In Hungary
1971 – IK marries MJR
1971 – IK birth of daughter ER (2)
1973 – IK birth of son CR (3) (WW is in prison)

21 May 1974 – WW discharged from prison
1976 – IK back in Aus

Please correct me if I'm mistaken I'm going off a mix of timelines other people posted, as well as my inquest notes. Just trying to figure it out.

I think what it was the birth of daughter RW was initially said as 1971 but it was corrected to 1970 at the inquest. That is what I have down.
Then the boy is born 1973.

 

[Deleted member 249471]

I think what it was the birth of daughter RW was initially said as 1971 but it was corrected to 1970 at the inquest. That is what I have down.
Then the boy is born 1973.

I may be completely wrong... I feel that we already knew that IK had two kids in Hungary with MJR as we'd seen the NAA papers and done research.

But, Casselden revealing WW had a a baby with IK in Aus, was gobsmacking new information! I flew out of my chair and was hyperventilating.

I believe we have no evidence that the 1971 Hungary baby was actually the 1970 Aus baby.

In fact, the inquest never mentioned MJR, so there was no 'correction'. They don't mention him at all because they believe he has nothing to do with the story. IMO

Occams razor and all... the most likely explanation is that IK realised by then that WW was trouble and would never be a good father or husband, so she returned home to Hungary (not even Belgium), gave up the baby for adoption, married a new man, had two babies with him, and got on with her life.

 

[JLZ]

The Belgian law is a bit weard. You can have an effective jailtime (you DO go to jail) and a sentence (only with short sentenses) you don’t go to jail, but you get a list of things you’re not supposed to do, and if you, within that time, do something that you’re not supposed to do (listed while sentensed) you do have to go to jail. It’s like a warning. I don’t know if that’s also the case in other countries…

I don’t know the history of Belgian law (time period of WW) but it won’t be much different i think.

Hope that helps with your time line…

Yes, we also have suspended sentences and release on parole (two different things). I see for some of WW's earlier crimes he's given suspended sentences eg "1 month 50 Fr[ancs?] 5 years suspended sentence" (1965). Suspended sentence isn't recorded against the 1976 or 1978 sentences, but that might be because of a difference in the way things are recorded a decade later. The other possibility, release on parole, well over here that would be after serving really a substantial part of a sentence, I think at least two thirds. The travel dates in 1978 are more consistent with a suspended sentence than release on parole. I can't really make any sense of the dates around a June 1976 conviction.

 

[gymtonic]

On the notes in IK's application, it said she was unemployed at that time, profession was hairdresser, she was offered leads to 2 jobs, but she declined those opportunities. There is a handwritten notation to show 'full fare' (was she entitled to assisted passage in 1968/9?). There is another note to show her original date of travel was due to be in April 69, but she then delayed it a month (was this to get married to RB?). She also did not speak English at that point.

I was also curious that on an incoming

On the notes in IK's application, it said she was unemployed at that time, profession was hairdresser, she was offered leads to 2 jobs, but she declined those opportunities. There is a handwritten notation to show 'full fare' (was she entitled to assisted passage in 1968/9?). There is another note to show her original date of travel was due to be in April 69, but she then delayed it a month (was this to get married to RB?). She also did not speak English at that point.

Also on the Certificat de bonne conduite, vie et mœurs (character reference?) she is listed as Gérante/ Société (Manageress/ Company?). And the page 7 in the NAA file dated April 1969, lists her as Miss IK, Rue de Francs, 46, Etterbeek. Again a bit of a tangled web in inter-related info.

 

[centred]

Catching up after shut out last night .

Some great timelines piecing certain things together and i am seeing some sense to some speculation based on timelines .

I noted this photo posted by someone this morning and thought there was a resemblance to RB
but dismissed it because of age difference initially , but i found it really curious that there was no detail re birth , when and where .

So is it possible this was his father ? Why is this man claiming a pension as a serving Australian with a name "Belgium " included . ? The paper work suggested he only served part time but they have zero details on

Wilfred Davis ....Willy DAVID ? View digital copy

Maybe he did father a child there ? with a local women who gave up the baby to an orphanage or a relative of hers raised him , either way RB was attached to Australia in his head

Just throwing it out there as i have been curious why the report about him in 2010(sorry i cannot recall the women's name at present )
why it states Australian born ...? I initially put that down to him BS ing her about where he came from .

 

[gymtonic]

Sorry for being dense but now I'm even more confused. Whose handwriting are you talking about? I thought you were talking about Marion's - are you talking about RB's?

Yes, I am referring to (IMHO) a handwriting change and specifically the number 7 change between first arrival card for WW and later deH arrival/ dep cards. It would be interesting to get a real handwriting expert (i.e. not me!!) to cast an eye and give an opinion on this.

 

[Deleted member 249471]

it proves they weren’t on Chusan in in 1970. But then RB changed his testimony saying it was likely early 1971 when they left (that the ship was supposed to leave late 1970, but there was a delay). This is possibly accurate as Chusan did leave UK in early 1971 & arrived in AU on Feb/March 1971, continuing on to UK in April 1971.

Thank you for this, I am adding it to my timeline:

Dec 1969 – WW claims he met DW in a hotel before boarding Chusan
Jan-Mar 1970 –DW claims she meet WW aboard the Chusan sailing Southampton to Sydney
late 1970 – At inquest, WW changed his story that the Chusan was due to leave but was postponed
early 1971 – And so he met DW on the Chusan when it finally set sailed.

Imagine not having a clear memory of when you arrived in Aus for the first time and meeting you wife for the first time on the same trip!

 

[Estelle]

Sorry if I misunderstood... didn't IK have THREE kids?

In Australia
Jan 1970 – WW and IK have baby (1)
15 Feb 1979 – WW IK depart Aus with baby, status divorced
9 Dec 1971 – WW in prison for 4 years

In Hungary
1971 – IK marries MJR
1971 – IK birth of daughter ER (2)
1973 – IK birth of son CR (3) (WW is in prison)

21 May 1974 – WW discharged from prison
1976 – IK back in Aus

Please correct me if I'm mistaken I'm going off a mix of timelines other people posted, as well as my inquest notes. Just trying to figure it out.

My input on this is: Before the inquest, the timeline I was following also stated that Ilona's children were born overseas in 1971 and 1973 as you have it above. But when Casselden spoke about a baby in Jan 1970, I thought an error had been made so I put the birth of the daughter back to Jan 1970.

You are right. There could have been three children.

 

[gymtonic]

I don't think it's RB. In this file, Wilfred is claiming benefits as he participated in the Aus military during WW2 1939-45. They declined him because his service was only part time. The picture is of Wilfred in uniform. If it was RB, he would have to be 20 years older than he claims his is now (born in 1939). To be frank, I personally think RB appears about 6 to 10 years younger than he claims.

I’ve also been thinking he is possibly younger and wondering if the whole WW & 1939 birthdate is a smokescreen and that there’s more to the Roger Lauzoney (DOB 1945) alias. Lauzoney as a surname does not throw up many leads (and almost reads like an Anglicised version of Born in Lauzon/ Lauzon né ) but the surname Lauzon does (being “From the town of Lauzon” (France). The surname Lauzon is widely known in Quebec (and RB seems to always favour Francophone countries including Nouvelle Caledonie, Tahiti - but I haven’t seen any Canadien refs yet).

 

[Estelle]

Do we know if MJR was ever in AU? They were married in Hungary, but was he from AU and/or did he return to AU with IK? It is possible she met him outside AU and she returned to AU without him (separated?)

Does anyone have the original link we have to MJRead? How did he appear?