Australia Australia - Marion Barter, 51, missing after trip to UK, June 1997 #9

[ChrysStevenson]

Welcome! Do you know if there are public records of container exports from 1996- now?

I want to search RB alias list to see if there was a chance marions container of furniture was shipped overseas.

I’m afraid that’s rather out of my field, but I’ll see if I can find anything.

 

[othervee]

They have the info.
I don't think Casselden would have been playing all his cards at that inquest. There was a lot he could have delved into with RBs inconsistencies but he let it go. Just letting RB hang himself.

I agree 100%. There are thousands of pages in the documentation Casselden has, at least once he quoted a page number in the thousands. I'm willing to bet there's a massive amount of information that hasn't been revealed, and won't be revealed at the inquest because it isn't directly relevant to his patterns of behaviour around deceiving and ripping off vulnerable women. Let's hope there's a nice juicy police prosecution in the works just waiting to happen once the inquest is complete.

 

[gymtonic]

A propos of nothing....(well tangentially as it is about aliases, fabrication family histories and Walter Mitty moments)...has anyone read The Barefaced Messiah: The True Story of L Ron Hubbard? (the Scientology guy) A friend put me on to it and although I am only part way through, it has interesting insights for this case.

 

[Liselle]

In light of the fact RB spoke of " Nureyev "when discussing this dance evidence and referenced some town where he was known to be acknowledged and even said the word Ballet , i wonder where the Belly dancer came into it other than it well may have been misunderstood by others as being "Belly"

I remember thinking why it wasn't corrected and every one here just ran with it because they thought it was funny , so not such a silly connection IMO

JO never mentioned ever being a "belly/ballet" dancer in her testimony with a desire of becoming professional in France. It wasn't until RB "fabricated" this and/or tried to "impune" JO a few days later. Just another misogynistic fantasy?

 

[LEO123]

Just a small point, when AC is talking to RB at the Inquest about meeting Marion in Switzerland in the 60s. AC sounds like he is pronouncing Lausanne, and so does RB. When AC asks what they did together in Lausanne, he says Marion was very interested in the Chapel bridge (Kapellbrucke). That particular bridge is in Lucerne, not Lausanne. I’m not sure if it’s their pronunciation, but if not he’s obviously (no surprise), lying. Lausanne being in the French Speaking, and Lucerne being German speaking area.

 

[centred]

I wondered whether he was saying ballet for quite a while but knowing the French accent it didn't really sound quite right as Ballet. Then when he mentioned GGB wearing a boa (the snake like thing of feathers around her neck that he had difficulty finding the correct word for...I took it to be describing a boa), I came down on the side of him saying "belly dancing". Plus belly dancing was a thing in Australia at that time and she was too old to make a successful ballet dancing career. IMO the weight of evidence for me was that he was saying belly dancing.

yeah well i pretty much accepted whatever but my comment was relative to the poster who shared the Ballet school business and i was just saying the connection was not a stretch in light of the translation story mix up ..tomato -tomatoes stuff really

 

[MrsWattle]

"Pre-Colombian Civilization at the Academy of Arts" according to podcast.
Académie Royale des Beaux-Arts in Brussels? So not university. Pre-Colombian Civilization seems too hard to make up

I was just looking at the worldwide Pre-Colombian fake Imitation coin trade industry. And I stumbled across more crime stories of international money laundering by criminal gangs. I always imagined Fredy David going to Art School to learn Goldsmithing alongside valuable Pre-Colombian artifacts. MOO

 

[gymtonic]

Just a small point, when AC is talking to RB at the Inquest about meeting Marion in Switzerland in the 60s. AC sounds like he is pronouncing Lausanne, and so does RB. When AC asks what they did together in Lausanne, he says Marion was very interested in the Chapel bridge (Kapellbrucke). That particular bridge is in Lucerne, not Lausanne. I’m not sure if it’s their pronunciation, but if not he’s obviously (no surprise), lying

Ah yes, that was one where I was shaking my head and hoping it would be corrected. I too thought AC was mispronouncing Lucerne and that they were talking at cross purposes!

 

[centred]

The birth/ marriage records are for Isere which is in the region of France close to the Italian and Swiss border, and the death is for the border region with Spain, both of which are a fair way from Belgium. I haven't really been following up on all the ins and outs of the Don Juan investigations, but is the suggestion that this is the "real" birth father? and if so he is born, married and dies a long way from Belgium, which makes a difficult link...or am I missing something?.

No good in asking me because i personally do not think he is even sure who he is ..as in he maybe merely an orphan with no name or background he knows of or very little of ..

and made certain things up ....The jury is still out as far as I am concerned

 

[Liselle]

Just a small point, when AC is talking to RB at the Inquest about meeting Marion in Switzerland in the 60s. AC sounds like he is pronouncing Lausanne, and so does RB. When AC asks what they did together in Lausanne, he says Marion was very interested in the Chapel bridge (Kapellbrucke). That particular bridge is in Lucerne, not Lausanne. I’m not sure if it’s their pronunciation, but if not he’s obviously (no surprise), lying

From December 1965 to February 1966, FdH was in Brussels facing many charges (see NAA documentation). M (with JG Warren) returned to Sydney 2 Feb 1969 after being away for 6 months, so departed around August 1968 (? honeymoon). There is a need to discover FdH's movements during this time. I listened to most of RB's testimony, but very EVASIVE of places and dates.

 

[mishy66]

Long time follower. First time post.
Don Juan Desire Date of Death: 15 nov. 1972 (15 Nov 1972)

Web: France, Death Records, 1970-2018 - Ancestry.com.au
View attachment 334754

Thank you !

 

[mishy66]

If you want my take on it all after.....
@KittensAugustus and @Eyespywithmylittleeye posted up some incredible information on Desiré Charles Octave DAVID .....
I am investigating Abel Wouters is actually Don Juan - How about that douzy!

Reasonings:
MC Married to - Désiré Jean-Pierre Joseph DAVID B1905- D1943

WW - born 1939 - on the Gen Trees they all show he is first born (this is no accidental placement)

There is 4 years between WW birth and DD dying.

WW says he was placed in the orphanage aged 3 (1942) - so he has been with them or somewhere else for the first year of his life....

Enter Abel Wouters - no date of marriage.........and There is not ONE shred of anything on this man! I have searched for 1 month, everyday and there is nothing online or gen sites - except this beside his name on one of the Gen sites....

• Deceased - Tournai, , , Hainaut, Belgique

So I ask myself why is it that with an extensive GEN tree such as the one I posted up with over 80 000 names (and that is some historical working by that person! wowsers!), is there NOT a thing about AW given he was part of the childrens lives after the father died

So technically AW would have had a bigger presence on that linage in the Gen Tree I would have thought..
There is not a scrap of evidence anywhere that I have been able to find for the past month, apart from that deceased entry.

So my thinking is MC had an affair with AB - who's real name is Desiré Charles Octave DAVID
Born 2 November 1895 - Le Péage-de-Roussillon, 38298, Isère, Auvergne-Rhône-Alpes, FRANCE
and had no choice but to change his name after the 1934 trial because he was a highly publicised branded criminal.

This man has a footprint on genealogy trees and websites and he is a criminal, so why is AW not anywhere to be found

She marries him after her first husband dies and they collect WW at the orphanage. AND then WW's two brothers are born.
So it IS possible that RB is telling a truth, that he really is "Wouters".
He just happened to have his father as his greatest teacher!

IMO MOO

 

[mishy66]

What if...just pure crime fiction speculation...our protagonist died due to an unrelated accident (car crash - Jane Doe unidentified?) and being an opportunistic, con artist, (and with all the ID mechanisms in place) the villain takes advantage? He can't report it due to implicating himself; lack of a moral compass means he doesn't believe that he has done anything wrong; and hopes the mystery is never unravelled?

An alternative plot scenario = our protagonist discovers the scam and is so angry that she stages her disappearance but leaves a breadcrumb that links to and implicates the villain.

If I were a crime fiction novelist (which I am not but maybe I should be!) those are plots/ story arcs I would entertain! Of course in this case, with truth being stranger than fiction, it probably happened just as it currently looks with no need for plot twists!

Apologies to the real victims here as I should not really be trying to make light of it and not my intention to offend. Sleuthing requires throwing out some alternative hypotheses.

Love your thinking and storyline!
Anything is possible with this case and your thoughts would make a good book yes!

 

[mishy66]

The birth/ marriage records are for Isere which is in the region of France close to the Italian and Swiss border, and the death is for the border region with Spain, both of which are a fair way from Belgium. I haven't really been following up on all the ins and outs of the Don Juan investigations, but is the suggestion that this is the "real" birth father? and if so he is born, married and dies a long way from Belgium, which makes a difficult link...or am I missing something?.

He travelled extensively - lots of information about his travels online and the trove clippings that were posted up.

 

[mishy66]

Given the lack of information on the family tree, I would say the information has been put there by someone’s own knowledge.

I wonder if someone contacts the authors of the tree, whether they could shed any light on the family and ww/wc?

I did do this some time back while researching my own theory on who WW really was. They basically told me to *off.

 

[mishy66]

I agree 100%. There are thousands of pages in the documentation Casselden has, at least once he quoted a page number in the thousands. I'm willing to bet there's a massive amount of information that hasn't been revealed, and won't be revealed at the inquest because it isn't directly relevant to his patterns of behaviour around deceiving and ripping off vulnerable women. Let's hope there's a nice juicy police prosecution in the works just waiting to happen once the inquest is complete.

Exactly! Most of that would be for an eventual prosecution for sure. They would have so so much evidence!
They are probably loving that sleuths are working on various angles and possibly having a wee giggle at some of our theories. I think it would be very remiss of people to think that the Legal Representatives are counting on us to solve the case haha! But we can help tie some links up perhaps!

 

[MrsWattle]

There are quite a few missing persons in Ballina, Tintenbar, Lismore, Lennox head and Byron bay and surrounds. There are other mysterious cases of missing and found deceased. A series of crime especially by trickery, fraud, romance scam and banker impersonator. See this article today. It's definitely a worry for vulnerable.
women. Is your phone number on a dark web 'suckers list' for scammers to buy?

 

[Eyespywithmylittleeye]

Well we know there is at least one.... it is stated in his trial...
"David strategically married Alice Dazel, daughter of a magistrate who gave evidence that David had turned out a model husband and father".
Cunning to marry a magistrates daughter just prior to trial right[/QUOTE
There’s 3 marriages

 

[Eyespywithmylittleeye]

P

I always thought RB meant belly dancing because women in their 50s usually don't do ballet professionally unless they are ballet teachers whereas belly dancing is viewed by many men as being erotic with the woman dancing with boa feathers around her neck like a snake in the privacy of their bedroom - hence he said he was "bewitched".

On the other hand, ballet dancing is probably not viewed as "erotic". However, JO said at the inquest that RB was trying to lure her to sell her house and buy a property in the French Riviera and for GGB, it was Paris. There was never any mention of belly or ballet dancing in JO's account so IMO he wanted to delete that story and came up with the belly dancing and getting agents instead as he did not want to be associated with the idea of having tried to lure JO into selling her house. DdH had mentioned that he told her that GGB was the one who was the dancer. Maybe he changed the story he told his wife from ballet to belly dancing for the inquest. IMO RB came up with the belly dancing story as a distraction.

I'm not sure why he felt the need to mention Nureyev because IMO he didn't say he went to Surrey with JO, did he? Nureyev lived at several London addresses, spending some months in a rented Kensington flat with his long-term partner Erik Bruhn, and staying for a short time in Fonteyn's home in 1962, also in Kensington. He bought a house near Richmond Park (which is in Surrey ten miles from London city) in 1967, but found the semi-rural location too isolating. I think that was another distraction.

Perhaps the dancing story was something he fed his wife.. knowing she was on stand first he then thought he had to keep going with the dancing story

 

[centred]

Exactly! Most of that would be for an eventual prosecution for sure. They would have so so much evidence!
They are probably loving that sleuths are working on various angles and possibly having a wee giggle at some of our theories. I think it would be very remiss of people to think that the Legal Representatives are counting on us to solve the case haha! But we can help tie some links up perhaps!

This