Australia - Martin Place siege: 2 Hostages killed in Lindt Chocolate shop, Dec 2014 - #2

[SouthAussie]

"Monis apparently converted to Sunni Islam only recently, perhaps because you can't really claim to love IS when you're a Shiite and they're trying to exterminate you."

http://www.smh.com.au/comment/sydne...l-sheikh-only-to-himself-20141216-128h9x.html

 

[drsleuth]

Great article by Waleed Aly

http://www.smh.com.au/comment/sydne...re-all-nnn-nnn-vars-o&sa=D&usg=ALhdy28zsr6qiq

From all appearances, this was as crude and as solitary as it gets. There's no high-tech wizardry on show. There's no elaborate, maniacal plan worthy of a Hollywood supervillain. There's not even a mastermind pulling strings to make this more coherent. There is only a man, a gun and a flag. The man and the gun we've seen before. Indeed, we've seen it horrifically often: in Belgium just hours after Martin Place; at Port Arthur. But the flag – that changes things. It lends this the apocalyptic timbre that drives us so mad. It's the thing in this episode that does the least damage – and the most.

 

[Amee]

Sydney Siege: Gunman's lawyer speaks out

VIDEO: http://yhoo.it/1wXcVGg

https://www.facebook.com/yahoo7/pho...3936098957151/979166722100748/?type=1&theater

 

[Mrs G Norris]

Press conference with Mike Baird and Cmnr Scipione on now. I very much like the dynamic between these two, they come off very sincere. Talking about the changes to the bail act and the fact that prosecution did ask for remand in this case, safety of the community paramount. Mike Baird is 'outraged like everyone else!'. He is saying 'magistrates do need to understand how the community is feeling' and that their job is to keep the community safe. Could be some interesting changes ahead, I very much hope so.

 

[Brightbird]

Tony Abbott: Martin Place siege gunman was known to ASIO but not on terror watch list

The Sydney siege gunman was not on any government terror watch lists despite having a long criminal history, mental instability and an "infatuation with extremism", Prime Minister Tony Abbott says.

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...not-on-terror-watch-list-20141216-128hdj.html

I think the ball was really dropped on giving him bail after 40 or so sex charges. I can kind of see why he wasn't on the terror watch list. IMO he was too unpredictable to spend those resources on. I've been reading old forum threads from the Muslim community. Back in 07/08 people thought he was either a non-Muslim pulling a hoax to ridicule Muslims or that he was mentally unstable. A security and intelligence expert on the radio just now was saying that he wouldn't have been on the watch list because he was an outcast in his community and had no influence or charisma. He said police have to weigh up who is the greater threat to use their surveillance resources on. Makes you wonder who's at the top of the list! I think Haron was a paranoid nutter (he believed the gov't was hacking google to make muslims look bad) who no-one took seriously. We've seen that before with Martin Bryant, Julian Knight, Anders Brehvik and so on. In the end it was his personal problems that triggered him. Extreme Islam was a convenient justification for him. Or maybe it was for maximum attention so he could go out with a bang (no pun intended). Either way, I'm not sure how intelligence can detect these people. I almost pity him, but then I have to remind myself that he's really screwed up a lot of people's lives.

 

[Mrs G Norris]

Public enquiry about how 'this guy' slipped through the cracks, as in why wasn't he on a watchlist. Formal enquiry coming in the form of a review - Abbott spearheading that.

 

[Ausgirl]

I think the ball was really dropped on giving him bail after 40 or so sex charges. I can kind of see why he wasn't on the terror watch list. IMO he was too unpredictable to spend those resources on. I've been reading old forum threads from the Muslim community. Back in 07/08 people thought he was either a non-Muslim pulling a hoax to ridicule Muslims or that he was mentally unstable. A security and intelligence expert on the radio just now was saying that he wouldn't have been on the watch list because he was an outcast in his community and had no influence or charisma. He said police have to weigh up who is the greater threat to use their surveillance resources on. Makes you wonder who's at the top of the list! I think Haron was a paranoid nutter (he believed the gov't was hacking google to make muslims look bad) who no-one took seriously. We've seen that before with Martin Bryant, Julian Knight, Anders Brehvik and so on. In the end it was his personal problems that triggered him. Extreme Islam was a convenient justification for him. Or maybe it was for maximum attention so he could go out with a bang (no pun intended). Either way, I'm not sure how intelligence can detect these people. I almost pity him, but then I have to remind myself that he's really screwed up a lot of people's lives.

Excellent post! Ty for that information, also, re the forum.

 

[drsleuth]

Court Docs re- posting letters to deceased soldiers families :-(

MONIS, Man Haron v R; DROUDIS, Amirah v R [2011] NSWCCA 231

http://www.caselaw.nsw.gov.au/action/pjudg?jgmtid=155191

R v MONIS; R v DROUDIS [2011] NSWDC 39

http://www.caselaw.nsw.gov.au/action/pjudg?jgmtid=152652

 

[Summerfun]

One of the pictures published with the manager deceased on the stretcher is extremely sad and should never have been published.

 

[drsleuth]

One of the pictures published with the manager deceased on the stretcher is extremely sad and should never have been published.

I agree, with the ambos medical pack on top of him

 

[drsleuth]

Monis v The Queen [2013] HCA 4 (27 February 2013)

http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/cases/cth/HCA/2013/4.html

 

[SouthAussie]

http://www.news.com.au/national/how...rough-the-cracks/story-fncynjr2-1227159015884

 

[Brightbird]

I seriously doubt he was being persecuted in Iran. I think he managed to fool Australian immigration authorities. Either he believed he was persecuted but was deluded by his visions of grandeur, or he was running from something he did.

 

[PrimeSuspect]

12. Initial assessment for involuntary
detention
The current legislation/ situation
Under section 19 of the Act, a medical practitioner or AP who is of the opinion that a person is a mentally ill
person or a mentally disordered person can complete a Schedule 1 certificate allowing the person to be
taken to, and initially detained in a DMHF for assessment.
APs are experienced, and specially trained and appointed health practitioners who may be nurses,
psychologists or social workers.
At present, only medical practitioners (including AMOs and psychiatrists) in declared mental health facilities
can complete the certificate (Form 1) which allows for a person’s continued detention and involuntary
treatment at a DMHF (pending a mental health inquiry) (s27). As a further safeguard, where the first Form 1
examiner proposes to continue detaining the person, they must then be examined by at least one, and in
some cases two, additional medical practitioners, both of whom must be psychiatrists if the first assessor
was not a psychiatrist.
Access to medical practitioners with sufficient working knowledge of the Act and experience with mental
health may be problematic in some DMHF emergency departments that undertake Form 1 assessments,
particularly in regional areas. It was proposed that giving APs the authority to complete an examination as
part of a Form 1 certificate could help to address this resourcing issue.


http://www.health.nsw.gov.au/mhdao/Documents/Review-of-the-Mental-Health-Act-2007.pdf

http://www.hnehealth.nsw.gov.au/__d...2/NG9_Understanding_Involuntary_Treatment.pdf


I've read repeatedly in msm that Monis was considered mentally unstable, a menace to society, violent, delusional etc. Why wasn't he detained and assessed by doctors, given treatment? What does a person have to do to be involuntarily admitted? He wasn't some private secret of a family who has suddenly gone berserk, he was well-known throughout his own community, the govt. and the media. Is there some kind of stigma reporting a person like Monis because of his beliefs? Will it be considered harassment, fueled by bigotry, not about protecting society? Or, is there worse than him out there and he was considered a low risk?

I'm scratching my head, I don't understand.

 

[drsleuth]

Sydney Siege: Harriette Denny and her fiance George pay tribute at second memorial site in Martin Place




http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...stages-taken-in-Lindt-Chocolate-shop-2/page16

Brave, brave woman xx

 

[Brightbird]

Excellent post! Ty for that information, also, re the forum.

From what I could gather, Haron and his girlfriend were trying to recruit followers. My guess is that he was under intelligence watch then, but after they failed to make any impact he fell off their radar. Eerily in one thread from 07 or 08, someone was already guessing he might stage some kind of attack and that Muslims would cop the backlash.

 

[they'll get you]

All those flashes weren't gunfire.

Stun grenade

A stun grenade, also known as a flash grenade or flashbang, is a non-lethal explosive device used to temporarily disorient an enemy's senses. It is designed to produce a blinding flash of light and intensely loud noise "bang" of greater than 170 decibels (dB) [1] without causing permanent injury. It was first developed by the British Army's SAS in the 1960s.[2]

The flash produced momentarily activates all photoreceptor cells in the eye, making vision impossible for approximately five seconds, until the eye restores itself to its normal, unstimulated state. The loud blast is meant to cause temporary loss of hearing, and also disturbs the fluid in the ear, causing loss of balance.


http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stun_grenade

 

[sleepinoz]

https://www.facebook.com/nswpolicef...158543.218519706184/10152642076996185/?type=1

MESSAGE ON BEHALF OF THE NSW POLICE FORCE AND THE CITY OF SYDNEY.

Due to the size of the floral tribute in Martin Place, members of the public visiting the site are advised it is being being extended

The tribute location is now being extended west, towards Pitt St.

 

[Summerfun]

Hostage phone calls to Ch9

http://video.news.ninemsn.com.au/?uuid=3944265709001

I believe this country has very poor negotiating skills with hostage situations.
Not once did they bring in someone to negotiate with him.
The pleas are heart wrenching to listen to.
Why did they not give him a flag and negotiate from there.
They stood there for 16 hours without doing anything proactive.
My opinion.

 

[Brightbird]

I believe this country has very poor negotiating skills with hostage situations.
Not once did they bring in someone to negotiate with him.
The pleas are heart wrenching to listen to.
Why did they not give him a flag and negotiate from there.
They stood there for 16 hours without doing anything proactive.
My opinion.

BBM. Umm....what are you basing your opinion on?

By all accounts I've read, there were negotiators talking with him. But they wouldn't give in to his demands, no matter how simple they seemed on the face of it.

Queensland barrister Patrick Van Grinsven, who spent 21 years with the police and 12 years of them as a counter-terrorism-qualified specialist negotiator, said police would have been concerned it was providing him with the tools for a horror show.
“If he got the ISIS flag, he could use that to make a very dramatic statement indeed,” said Mr Van Grinsven, who has trained closely with the NSW negotiators on the scene at Martin Place.

http://www.news.com.au/national/wha...-man-haron-monis/story-fncynjr2-1227158546221

The trained police negotiator then sat with Hadley as he spoke with the hostages.

http://www.perthnow.com.au/entertai...157840796?nk=e92eddfbb47c39f3006c24e3c3e6f009

Speaking before the site was stormed, New South Wales Police Commissioner Andrew Scipione said "the very best negotiators in the world" were trying to end the standoff.

http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/sy...lice-storm-cafe-where-man-haron-monis-n268321