Australia - Martin Place siege: 2 Hostages killed in Lindt Chocolate shop, Dec 2014 - #2

[drsleuth]

I believe this country has very poor negotiating skills with hostage situations.
Not once did they bring in someone to negotiate with him.
The pleas are heart wrenching to listen to.
Why did they not give him a flag and negotiate from there.
They stood there for 16 hours without doing anything proactive.
My opinion.

I respectively disagree. There was no way they were ever going to meet his demands IMO

we do have some of the best negotiators in the world, as said by New South Wales Police Commissioner Andrew Scipione alo spoken about by Belinda Neil ( a former negotiator ) who has been live on several news outlets today.......I'll try to find a link.


https://au.news.yahoo.com/vic/a/25796852/experts-defend-police-siege-strategy/

However, experts say officers were right to negotiate with the gunman.

Former counter-terrorism negotiator Belinda Neil said the fact police heard shots ring out from inside the siege indicated an "imminent threat" to the hostages' safety and lives.

"I believe there was also footage of a sniper saying `hostage down'," she told AAP on Wednesday.

"So you have your imminent threat to the lives and safety of the hostages."

So-called `tactical resolution' is a last resort and only ever used if there's an imminent threat to hostages, she added.

snip

The gunman also made demands through his hostages, including one to talk to Prime Minister Tony Abbott on the phone.

But Mr Small said that could have ended in Mr Abbott inadvertently saying the wrong thing and setting the gunman off.

Mr Small pointed out Monis didn't have an escape route.

"So he made his mind up that he was going to die there that day."

 

[Brightbird]

I respectively disagree. There was no way they were ever going to meet his demands IMO

we do have some of the best negotiators in the world, as said by New South Wales Police Commissioner Andrew Scipione alo spoken about by Belind Neil ( a former negotiator ) who has been live on several news outlets today.......I'll try to find a link.

Beat you to it See my post above.

 

[Bravo]

I believe this country has very poor negotiating skills with hostage situations.
Not once did they bring in someone to negotiate with him.
The pleas are heart wrenching to listen to.
Why did they not give him a flag and negotiate from there.
They stood there for 16 hours without doing anything proactive.
My opinion.

I think they were doing much behind the scenes we just are not privy to it. IMO you dont give a guy any control who feels he has control. You dont give in to his demands. You weaken and tire him. You wait and wait. They did and I feel they got the best posssible outcome. There were threats of bombs etc. I think LE did an outstanding job. The outcome could have been much worse. It was bad enough but many more lives could have been lost. These are highly skilled trained people. Thankfully there is somebody who can do it. There is one report of a sniper who sat in the news station with his gun trained in the cafe for 16 hours. His eye nor hand never waivered. Amazing skill in my opine.

 

[drsleuth]

Martin Place siege: Police had two plans to get gunman

http://www.news.com.au/national/mar...ns-to-get-gunman/story-fncynjr2-1227159346665

The operation began was split in two — Strike force Pioneer began to take control of the situation with the deployment of snipers, heavily armed members of the Tactical response Unit, the bomb Squad and highly trained negotiators.

Meanwhile, Strike force Eagle set about investigating who may have been behind the siege. Detectives began gathering intelligence on any possible suspects including known extremists or those associated with extremist groups.

Operatives began calling community members and other intelligence sources and within two hours they had identified the gunman as fake sheik Man Haron Monis, a 50-year-old on bail as an accessory for the murder of his ex-wife.

His lawyer was contacted and asked to come and help police find a key to getting Monis to give himself up. The FBI passed on information that Monis was on its watch list.

At that stage it was known Monis had a shotgun but officers were concerned that he was wearing a backpack which could contain a bomb that could be detonated if he was agitated, spooked or shot.

 

[Summerfun]

Why were the hostages pleaing in their own words to give him the flag for one persons safety?
What harm would that have caused?

 

[Bravo]

Awww ... gulp :tears: ... they are showing the people in the flower queue last night all singing ... 'people say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one'.

Ch 7 News

God Bless them. Reminds me of a moment back in time. A time I thought the world was full of love and peace. As a Canadian Student standing in St. Peters Square In Italy. For some reason our group ran into a group of Italians around the same age. We stood across from each other in our groups singing Beatle's songs. Nobody knew why it just happened. For hours. The pigeons and people milled about us. Paying us no mind. We never missed a beat. Little did I know It was to be a time I would later reflect on.

 

[Bravo]

Why were the hostages pleaing in their own words to give him the flag for one persons safety?
What harm would that have caused?

They were forced to. The harm would be it is a psych. game at this point. You never give him any control. You may bargain but you dont ever let him think he has any control over you as a negotiator. These folks are highly skilled and trained at negotiating. They have info we are not privy to. IMO they are amazing at what they do.

 

[Summerfun]

Venice. I am not really sure what your point is.

 

[Brightbird]

Why were the hostages pleaing in their own words to give him the flag for one persons safety?
What harm would that have caused?

Didn't the gunman make them call the media to get his 'message' out? I don't think they were doing it willingly. Given the recent plot to film a beheading in Martin Place with an IS flag in the picture, I think they would have been foolish to grant him that request.

 

[drsleuth]

They were forced to. The harm would be it is a psych. game at this point. You never give him any control. You may bargain but you dont ever let him think he has any control over you as a negotiator. These folks are highly skilled and trained at negotiating. They have info we are not privy to. IMO they are amazing at what they do.

Exactly Bravo!!

 

[Summerfun]

And going back and forth on here sadly will not bring back the two innocent people who lost their lives in this horrible tragedy.
So good night and we can all agree please let's have peace on earth.

 

[Bravo]

Venice ah yes better times having said that i will go on to say before i go that the little i do know about negotiations is that the 12th hour is crucial. Especially with a lone hostage taker. Dynamic changes greatly. With him. He is stressed and weary. Plan A B and C are in place and ready for action given his motives, and a thousand other dynamics. Stick around much to be learned.

 

[Bravo]

Venice. I am not really sure what your point is.

That's ok. "Beatles"/ John Lennon" Just personal reflection. Something I do when crimes get tough here. Something many of us do to get thru the tough stuff here.

 

[Bravo]

And going back and forth on here sadly will not bring back the two innocent people who lost their lives in this horrible tragedy.
So good night and we can all agree please let's have peace on earth.

Agree. It is so very sad. Especially this time of year. Yes peace on earth!!!

 

[sleepinoz]

Why were the hostages pleaing in their own words to give him the flag for one persons safety?
What harm would that have caused?

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/ne...-man-haron-monis/story-fni0xqrc-1227158546221

What was really going on in negotiations between police and Man Haron Monis

Queensland barrister Patrick Van Grinsven, who spent 21 years with the police and 12 years of them as a counter-terrorism-qualified specialist negotiator, said police would have been concerned it was providing him with the tools for a horror show.

“If he got the ISIS flag, he could use that to make a very dramatic statement indeed,” said Mr Van Grinsven, who has trained closely with the NSW negotiators on the scene at Martin Place.

 

[Bravo]

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/ne...-man-haron-monis/story-fni0xqrc-1227158546221

What was really going on in negotiations between police and Man Haron Monis

Queensland barrister Patrick Van Grinsven, who spent 21 years with the police and 12 years of them as a counter-terrorism-qualified specialist negotiator, said police would have been concerned it was providing him with the tools for a horror show.

“If he got the ISIS flag, he could use that to make a very dramatic statement indeed,” said Mr Van Grinsven, who has trained closely with the NSW negotiators on the scene at Martin Place.

Absolutely!!!

 

[Brightbird]

Not sure if I missed this earlier or it's very new info but.......he had a GUN LICENSE :thud: What the hell are our gun laws for if this guy could legally own a gun?

http://www.theage.com.au/federal-po...-into-martin-place-siege-20141217-1295y2.html

 

[Bravo]

I am in no way equating what I do in my job to a hostage negotiator. I do know the power of words with violent folks and how to diffuse it in my work. It does work. In my 32 years and approx. 20 years of CPI Training I have never been injured. Yet I have the luxury of knowing my Clients. These folks in a hostage situation take what info they have and apply their highly trained skills above and beyond anything I will ever experience. Have I ever been terrorized and prayed the Police got to the situation in time? Absolutely. My point being the power of words. Knowing what to say and when to say it. And knowing when to say nothing and the situation is beyond words and needs force. A link to ponder.
http://www.crisisprevention.com/Specialties/Nonviolent-Crisis-Intervention

 

[Ausgirl]

Not sure if I missed this earlier or it's very new info but.......he had a GUN LICENSE :thud: What the hell are our gun laws for if this guy could legally own a gun?

http://www.theage.com.au/federal-po...-into-martin-place-siege-20141217-1295y2.html

...............................speechless. :notgood:

 

[Brightbird]

I am in no way equating what I do in my job to a hostage negotiator. I do know the power of words with violent folks and how to diffuse it in my work. It does work. In my 32 years and approx. 20 years of CPI Training I have never been injured. Yet I have the luxury of knowing my Clients. These folks in a hostage situation take what info they have and apply their highly trained skills above and beyond anything I will ever experience. Have I ever been terrorized and prayed the Police got to the situation in time? Absolutely. My point being the power of words. Knowing what to say and when to say it. And knowing when to say nothing and the situation is beyond words and needs force. A link to ponder.
http://www.crisisprevention.com/Specialties/Nonviolent-Crisis-Intervention

Thanks for bringing your insight and perspective to this thread. Very interesting and much appreciated