Found Deceased Australia - Russell Hill, 74, & Carol Clay, 72, Wonnangatta Valley, 20 Mar 2020 #5 *charges*

[tmar]

I wonder if he is being held out at Fulham? (10 mins from Sale) Or up to Melbourne? I don’t think he’ll have an easy time of it, no matter where he goes.

GL enjoyed being on his own.
Prison life, reading loads of books, away from others, may not be too upsetting for him.
He may be very busy, thinking of Defence strategies.

 

[BrumbyJack]

Sorry, just want to comment on a few things here.
Sunrise was around 7.24am on the morning of the 21 Mar 2020 and given the good amount of dappled sunlight I reckon it’s been taken between 7.30 and 8am. It’s not 6am.

The GAR where the camera is on the Harrietville side runs south north, so with the sun rising in the east the sunlight would be hitting the driver side if the vehicle was driving out of the the resort boundary (heading north towards Harrietville). Add to that there is an embankment on the passenger side, which also shows in the photo. It’s definitely the cam on that side.

The resort boundary camera heading east towards Omeo is on a flat, with no embankments. And the sun would be hitting roughly straight on, not coming from the side. And the coppers have already said they got the photo from a Hotham Resort cam.

The coppers have said the trailer is a 5x7 which means, in Victoria anyway, that it’s big enough that it has to have its own separate rego - only a 6x4 trailer or smaller is allowed to display the plate of the towing vehicle.

And considering he needed to head back towards Melbourne, there’s no way he would’ve gone up through Omeo, then down to Bairnsdale and back to Melbs. Even considering he went up to the old Grant area to hide the bodies, it would still be heaps, heaps quicker to come back down to Dargo and head home that way. Why unneccessarily add an extra 3 or so hours if you don’t have to? Especially if you’ve been driving since midnight already. But as I mentioned at the start, that cam is the one on the Harrietville side.

If one looks at the photo, below, it appears that the shadows are running from right to left. Given that we drive on the left here in Oz, and the photo was reportedly taken around 6.00 am, then it is a fair bet that the vehicle is going up the mountain not down.
Recall that (my friend's time line again),
April 14, 2021: Information leads detectives to Mount Hotham, where two shovels and reportedly, other items are found during a search in a small area of bushland next to the Great Alpine Road.
This suggests that the vehicle went up from the MacMillan road area to mt hotham and then down through Dinner Plain, Cobungra to Omea (assuming the driver stuck to the highway).
Down this road are multiple cctv installations, phone masts and so on.
[Note also in the photo below that the trailer appears to have a licence plate. I understand that in Victoria a trailer takes to plate of the vehicle towing it. There is no indication when the photo came into the possession of the police or when they realised its significance. But in April this year they were still speaking of a "mystery white" ute, however, they spoke to Mr Lynn last year.]

View attachment 324224

 

[Arboreal]

Police have said the portaloo was never used.

I can't believe I'm asking this but: do people use portaloos for number 1 and number 2?

People that have caravans with toilets complain about having to empty the toilet. It's a gross job apparently.

So they tend to use public facilities where possible or wee behind a bush and only use the van toilet for emergency number 2.

I wonder if it's possible that Hill & Clay were asleep but did their night wee behind a bush.

I think this might be one of the pieces of information that led police to believe Mr Hill and Ms Clay were killed in the early evening.
Police have stated that Mr Hill and Ms Clay set camp "late in the day".
Mr Hill was speaking, via VHF radio with his radio mates from 18:00 - 18:40. I saw one report that he made the call from high ground, not his camp site. He said to his mate that they had made camp but that it was getting dark. Sunset on that day was 19.31, but Mr Hill was in a valley so it would be earlier, likely about 19.10.
However, on the ch.9 program I mentioned in an earlier post, a blackberry sprayer claims he saw Mr Hill's drone in the early evening, so that is around 19.00. [How he knew it was Mr Hill's drone, or if he thought that Mr Hill was operating it, or where he saw it, is not clear. Police would know.]
The VHF call suggests they had not yet eaten. So, they go back to have something to eat and prepare for bed.
However, the portaloo had not been used. Of course people just duck off into the bush but we do not know if Ms Clay was not prepared to abandon all the refinements of civilization. The fact they took it with them suggests intent to use it.
The next piece of information is that people heard a vehicle leave the valley around midnight. Interestingly, absence of reports suggest that noone saw the flames from the tent fire or smelt it.
From my friend's chronology:
March, 20, 2020, around midnight: a vehicle described as sounding like a petrol motor towing a trailer, was stopped by the Myrtleford gate. This is a locked gate on one of the valley’s ingress-egress points. Police say the vehicle had to perform a 20 or 30-point turn on a narrow track and was there for some time just trying to turn around.
So, that gives a possible time of death between 19:00 and Midnight. I did see a comment that suggested a time of death between 19.00 and 21.00. That is why the portaloo might be important: if it had been used that would suggest sometime later in the evening.
Note: how people can tell if a vehicle is towing a relatively light trailer is not clear. Or what gate. However, the gate (and evidence of the turning) could have been discovered in later searches after witness said they heard a vehicle leave around midnight. Web comments state that the gate is at intersection of Wonnangatta, van Damme and Harry shepherds track. It is about an 18 km drive from the campsite (about 8km as the crow flies), about 40 minutes without a trailer. There is a hairpin bend about 600m from the gate. The 24th was a new moon and the 20th would be a waning crescent, meaning a fairly dark night.
The police speak with such confidence about many of the things they have been saying that I suspect they have extensive witness statements and also, even before the arrest, technical information.
Sound does carry, but over that distance in that terrain is unlikely. There may have been campers in the area. We will need to wait for the trial/book/miniseries!
Edited to amend incorrect sunset time.

 

[Satchie]

the photo was reportedly taken around 6.00 am,

RSBM

Thanks, I had wondered if it was public knowledge when the photo was taken on Mt. Hotham. The vehicle reportedly arrived at the blocked gate around midnight.

My attempts at mapping the camp site --> Grant Historic area ---> Mt. Hotham resort get me an estimated driving of 3.5 hours. If correct, that leaves something like 2.5 hours to go off the route and dispose of his victims.

I'm also thinking that, since he originally intended to go a different route, he may not have had a particular site in mind.

I think it would be somewhere not very far from the vehicle, after all, that's heavy work, and he'd have to make sure he could find his way back in the dark. And the vehicle couldn't go off the track unless there was a spur of some sort.

Fortunately, police seem to know what they're doing and I hope they find them.

ETA: if the resort photo was taken later than 6 am, that adds more time, which would probably be needed to scope out a site and proceed in the dark.

 

[OwlHeart]

Very interesting, Thanks for sharing. I had no idea this kind of science was happening here in Australia!

That's really cool, those scientists are awesome

 

[JudgeJudi]

There’s a body farm about 10 k away from me around Yarramundi NSW.

I'm not far from it either but I'm in the Lower Blue Mountains. Here's a bit more detail on what they do:

"We do a lot of work in three different areas," she said.

"Firstly, how we can better find missing persons - for example a bushwalker who has gone hiking and hasn't found their way back, as well as someone who has gone missing in a homicide or mass disaster.

"We're using different types of tools and instruments in the field to find out how we can use the scent to track them, and also using drones to track the heat signals coming off the body.

"Another big area - a crucial area for any investigation - is finding the time of death.

"And the third big area is the identification phase.

"We've already done quite a bit of case work and we've been able to assist with a number of cases."

Hawkesbury's AFTER site releases key findings on human decomposition

 

[Satchie]

a vehicle described as sounding like a petrol motor towing a trailer...

I agree, that's a very peculiar statement. I suppose the trailer might rattle in a characteristic way on a rough track, especially if the vehicle were driving fast.

Also, the 20-30 point turn might have left tire tracks that told the story to an expert in reading them.

If, from the beginning, they were looking for a vehicle pulling a trailer...that would have helped the investigation enormously.

 

[Motomike]

Mr Hill was speaking, via VHF radio with his radio mates from 18:00 - 18:40. I saw one report that he made the call from high ground, not his camp site. He said to his mate that they had made camp but that it was getting dark

It was infact HF radio 3.670Mhz. I was one of the group who spoke to him at that time. He was at the campsite while speaking to us.

What I found interesting was there was no sign of the HF antenna Russell would have used in the photos of the burnt out campsite suggesting he had packed it up ready to depart the next day. Much of the discussion that evening was about how best to get out of the valley via the southern route via Pioneer Racecourse, Talbotville, Dargo etc.

 

[Arboreal]

Sorry, just want to comment on a few things here.

Brumby Jack:
That is great information and clarifies a lot. I was assuming the caption for the photo was accurate: "Police say the vehicle was spotted on cameras at the top of Mount Hotham" and that the 6:00 am claim was correct, along with a report on whether the trailer required registration. One should not assume and should check! It's a long very time since I've been down that way and so did not know the location of the cameras. But the idea the driver was going up the mountain was right, given the direction of the sun light. I have also just seen on the map that the Dargo High Plains road terminates at the Great alpine Road. And it is this road that carries on to Harrietville.
About the driver's way home. He may have taken a more direct route; that makes sense. Unless he's trying to be clever....
as for the shovels, my friend just said that forensic testing has not linked the items to the Mr Hill or Ms Clay.
If the shovels are not linked (and presuming they are not his), then why drive 50 or so km up the mountain? Unless of course they were his shovels but he cleaned them up....

 

[Arboreal]

It was infact HF radio 3.670Mhz. I was one of the group who spoke to him at that time. He was at the campsite while speaking to us.

What I found interesting was there was no sign of the HF antenna Russell would have used in the photos of the burnt out campsite suggesting he had packed it up ready to depart the next day. Much of the discussion that evening was about how best to get out of the valley via the southern route via Pioneer Racecourse, Talbotville, Dargo etc.

Thanks for that clarification. I've sent it on to my friend. I see some press reports say HF.
This sort of discussion is really useful.
I know nothing about radio. The antenna - is it like a fishing rod or is it more like a piece of electrical flex?

 

[Motomike]

Thanks for that clarification. I've sent it on to my friend. I see some press reports say HF.
This sort of discussion is really useful.
I know nothing about radio. The antenna - is it like a fishing rod or is it more like a piece of electrical flex?

The antenna Russell used would have been what is called a dipole. A vertical mast maybe 8-10 m high with a pair of wires approx 20m long coming from the top 180deg from each other and tied off on a convenient tree at either end. Sorry its a bit hard to describe without a picture.

here is an example

 

[BrumbyJack]

That’s easy, the sound that it makes. The tracks up there aren’t smooth, so something jumping around making a lot of noise would suggest it’s a light trailer. Less trailer noise means it’s sitting heavier on the track. And don’t forget that once this bloke hit the gate and had to turn around, the only way he could go was back out past the other campers, making noise the whole time.
Also re sound travelling at night up there , you can easily hear stuff from a couple of ranges away, and he was heard doing a 20-30 point turn at the gate.

Note: how people can tell if a vehicle is towing a relatively light trailer is not clear. Or what gate. However, the gate (and evidence of the turning) could have been discovered in later searches after witness said they heard a vehicle leave around midnight.


Sound does carry, but over that distance in that terrain is unlikely. There may have been campers in the area

 

[Arboreal]

The antenna Russell used would have been what is called a dipole. A vertical mast maybe 8-10 m high with a pair of wires approx 20m long coming from the top 180deg from each other and tied off on a convenient tree at either end. Sorry its a bit hard to describe without a picture.

here is an example

Thank you for that information. It is really helpful. And thanks for the earlier information.

 

[Arboreal]

That’s easy, the sound that it makes. The tracks up there aren’t smooth, so something jumping around making a lot of noise would suggest it’s a light trailer. Less trailer noise means it’s sitting heavier on the track. And don’t forget that once this bloke hit the gate and had to turn around, the only way he could go was back out past the other campers, making noise the whole time.
Also re sound travelling at night up there , you can easily hear stuff from a couple of ranges away, and he was heard doing a 20-30 point turn at the gate.

Brumby Jack
Thanks for that information. I've been out west on cold nights and heard vehicles kms away, but thought that in timbered ranges the sound might be absorbed.
Would it be possible to locate the exact place where he was caught? Or maybe there's only one gate.
Do you know if it is possible to exit the area without having to descend into the valley but say along E riley Road or Van Dammes track?

 

[JudgeJudi]

This was a very interesting conversation guys, so thank you. I'm glad the thread was quiet so that the conversation continued uninterrupted.

 

[BrumbyJack]

Yeah the gate isn’t right up on the saddle, it’s just a little bit back down Wonnangatta Track (maybe 50 metres?), so he couldn’t have accessed Van Dammes or East Riley - otherwise he would’ve easily turned around on the helipad.

And with the noise, sometimes the valleys can help funnel the sound.

Brumby Jack
Thanks for that information. I've been out west on cold nights and heard vehicles kms away, but thought that in timbered ranges the sound might be absorbed.
Would it be possible to locate the exact place where he was caught? Or maybe there's only one gate.
Do you know if it is possible to exit the area without having to descend into the valley but say along E riley Road or Van Dammes track?

 

[srper2]

I can't understand if his trailer was relatively light, he didn't just take it off turn it around, then reattach? I would do that rather than make a 30 point turn if I was trying to sneak out! It must have been too heavy for one person to do that or he would have. Also, why was the vehicle heard but nothing else - nobody heard any altercation, nobody heard shots, nobody saw the fire? So on the night only the sound of the vehicle was remembered, nothing else? When I have been camping, particularly in quiet valleys, voices - and shots - carry a long way.

 

[BrumbyJack]

I remember reading very early on something about he was having trouble getting a good signal, so set up his radio gear to get a message out, and that it was somewhere further along the valley. But do you reckon from that convo you guys had with him, that he was at his actual campsite when he was on the blower to you?

And was it his plan to leave the next day? Carol told friends she wouldn’t be home until the 28th or 29th - so do you know where they were planning on spending the remaining 8 or 9 days?

It was infact HF radio 3.670Mhz. I was one of the group who spoke to him at that time. He was at the campsite while speaking to us.

What I found interesting was there was no sign of the HF antenna Russell would have used in the photos of the burnt out campsite suggesting he had packed it up ready to depart the next day. Much of the discussion that evening was about how best to get out of the valley via the southern route via Pioneer Racecourse, Talbotville, Dargo etc.

 

[Home Among The Gumtrees]

Does anyone think that he was hoping the car would catch too..or would he have doused it with fuel.. Why did he leave it..? Too much trouble?

Maybe he was hoping it would look like an accident? Lighting the car separately would make it more obvious that the fire wasn't the result of a gas stove malfunction or candle.

 

[Ssschu]

I am surprised GL didn't even apply for bond even though it likely would have been denied. This makes me think he has admitted to this crime (at least his twisted version of events) and told them where to find their bodies. It seems he must know his goose is cooked or he would have at least tried for bail. Curious what anyone else thinks.