Australia - Russell Hill & Carol Clay Murdered While Camping - Wonnangatta Valley, 2020 #7

[all_things_resolved]

Possibly a stupid comment but 8 guns (including a couple of hand guns ie the pistol and the revolver) seems like a lot to me. People don’t go hunting with revolvers, do they?

But then again I can’t imagine even owning one gun, let alone 8, plus membership at 2 gun clubs.

I agree! I recall that it was reported that he had changed the colour of his car once before in the years prior to CC and RH murders. So maybe he’s murdered before prior to the time he first changed his vehicle?

I initially wanted to believe the whole self defence possibility, but the more I think of it the more a potential SK keeps creeping into my mind. Can’t seem to forget the other 4 or more people who have vanished from that same area. Maybe GL doesn’t like men who stand their ground, independent, knowledgeable etc. And I’m overwhelmed by how many guns and knives and weapons he has and he lives in a city! I also feel like RH was murdered and died first by knife and then later CC was killed.

 

[Awakening]

I agree! I recall that it was reported that he had changed the colour of his car once before in the years prior to CC and RH murders. So maybe he’s murdered before prior to the time he first changed his vehicle?

I initially wanted to believe the whole self defence possibility, but the more I think of it the more a potential SK keeps creeping into my mind. Can’t seem to forget the other 4 or more people who have vanished from that same area. Maybe GL doesn’t like men who stand their ground, independent, knowledgeable etc. And I’m overwhelmed by how many guns and knives and weapons he has and he lives in a city! I also feel like RH was murdered and died first by knife and then later CC was killed.

I haven’t ruled out the idea that he’s an SK.

 

[Awakening]

DBM - double post. Sites been really glitchy for me.

 

[ScottToorak]

Interesting that he supposedly joined a club at Lara. Missing woman from Bannockburn Lorrin Whitehead has never been located.

 

[all_things_resolved]

Lynn’s car resprayed TWICE!

Pilot arrested over missing campers had his 4WD resprayed TWICE

The man arrested over the disappearance of two elderly campers had resprayed his 4WD at least twice over the past seven years.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Here you go, here’s the article I vaguely remembered seeing. Confirming Lynn’s vehicle has been resprayed TWICE. Why did he spray it sometime between 2016-2019? Another possible murder he was trying to hide from? From the colour white in 2016, to blue by 2019, to beige in 2020. There’s more to GL than we realise I think. He seems cunning and the whole self defence excuse is possible deflection. Someone who goes to that much trouble to hide evidence and continually return to the area of the crime to continue to destroy RH and CC bodies has a lot more at stake and appears to have past criminal experience. It’s like he wants to win at all costs.

Would also be interesting to know if GLs vehicle appeared in any CTV footage around the times of the other missing people in the same area…see this article below

Under Investigation Warren Meyer disappearance: Niels Becker, Conrad Whitlock, and David Prideaux all missing in Victoria's High Country

amp.nine.com.au

 

[Puggo]

I agree! I recall that it was reported that he had changed the colour of his car once before in the years prior to CC and RH murders. So maybe he’s murdered before prior to the time he first changed his vehicle?

I initially wanted to believe the whole self defence possibility, but the more I think of it the more a potential SK keeps creeping into my mind. Can’t seem to forget the other 4 or more people who have vanished from that same area. Maybe GL doesn’t like men who stand their ground, independent, knowledgeable etc. And I’m overwhelmed by how many guns and knives and weapons he has and he lives in a city! I also feel like RH was murdered and died first by knife and then later CC was killed.

MOO: I feel SK is a real possibility. This is the theory I'm examining:

Drone irritates GL to get out and load doubled barreled shotgun and shoots it down in anger.

Argument follows with RH&CC and GL realises his burst of anger will be the focus of police scrutiny for unlawful discharge of a firearm/ destruction of property.

If this was the case, RH&CC were starting make preparations to pack up the inside of their tent and leave when GL acted.

Possible motive: concealment of history as a previously unknown SK?

Would you kill two strangers because you fear your firearms licence might be at risk or because of a camping spot or a drone?

Just a theoretical scenario and motive. MOO.

 

[TootsieFootsie]

Someone who did something like even approaching someone with a loaded gun, might be in a bit of trouble if they were reported, if their job might be affected.

How lenient is the airline industry to one of it's pilots being arrested over a weapon's charge.
Maybe he approached Russell and Carol with the gun after a dispute over the drone or the camping spot or both.

Maybe Russell or Carol said they were going to report him, so he shot both of them.

 

[Lemony]

The police informant in a court proceeding usually means the police officer who has put the case forward (charged GL).


Informant/Informants
A person from a prosecuting agency who laid a charge for an alleged offence and who may give evidence in court.

Legal terms | Magistrates Court of Victoria

www.mcv.vic.gov.au

Yes, B Florence (Det. Brett Florence) is the informant on the court listing. He is the lead investigator on the case

EFAS

 

[Arboreal]

I've been away for a while and am only now again tuning into this case. Thank you to everyone posting links and questions and conjectures and opinions. I'm learning so much about the way the police approached this matter and they really deserve a lot of praise, given also the country was, like everywhere else, enduring the pandemic and also "lock down". Quite a remarkable effort. And now with the court case, I believe the careful way the Magistrate is approaching this should inspire confidence not only in the administration of justice but in the fact that the accused will receive a fair trial.

 

[Arboreal]

Detective Willy wrote that the news report that "Ex-Jetstar pilot Greg Lynn accused of checking into a motel covered in blood of elderly camper" was the first time I have heard about GL checking into a motel. Yes, that was news to me, too. AFAICT police have not revealed the location of the motel, but did say in court that blood residue that was cleaned from a motel room but was found on a bathmat. I read - but now can't find the article that said police advised the court that the staff at the motel told the police the room had told police about other stains that had been cleaned. Police told the court, according to The Age that the accused was located near Mansfield on the afternoon of the 21st:
MARCH 21, 2020
Lynn’s blue 1997 Nissan Patrol towing a box trailer travels through traffic cameras on the Great Alpine Road at Buckland’s Gap, about 9.48am. Analysis of Hill’s mobile phone shows it connects to the nearby Hotham Heights phone tower about 9.47am. At 3pm, Lynn’s mobile phone is detected near Mansfield.
It seems that the motel was located on the road from Hotham to Mansfield to his home, where he arrived on the 22 March.
I am super interested in learning when the police had all these various items of information - not because on any doubt, but rather I an intrigued about the way the investigation unfolded.

 

[Arboreal]

Lots of the reporting just doesn't seem to make sense.. But I imagine the journalists can only go with what information they can get hold of and are allowed to publish.

I agree. One clear example is that a scenario that Mr Hill went to Mr Gregg's vehicle and tried to remove a firearm. That seems to be a scenario advanced by the defence. but it may be a hypothesis advanced by the detectives to test the forensic evidence. The press have at times been reporting it as the police account of events. It is not, AFAICT. I put this down to the haste with which reporters are required to write and post. What would be really good is if the court were to post the police statement that it has released to reporters. It is a public document. So, I really don't understand why the court does not order the document posted on the www site.

 

[Arboreal]

Miss T wrote:
SES call us trackers out first .. ( if they can get us is key ) yet we are never the first ones out there .. the site trampled on and full of mess it like throwing your social media posts in a pile and asking me to pick the first at a glance ay .. coppers know this and sadly only few cop stations know they have trackers to help. they don't teach police to read tracks - by time anyone calls its out its like a cattleyard.
Miss T - Thanks for your post. I had no idea that there were still trackers....or that the SES could call on them to assist in the search. Thanks for your comment!

 

[Arboreal]

At mate who has access sent me this edited report from the herald Sun. I have the original but have edited it down so as to comply with copyright. Also, I have inserted some comments here and there.

‘WRESTLING OVER GUN’
Herald Sun; Melbourne, Vic.
18 Jan 2023: p.5
By Milles Proust

According to police, listening devices recorded accused Greg Lynn talking to himself about Russell Hill and Carol Clay nearly a year after their deaths.

The first theory on what happened to Mr Hill & Ms Clay was revealed in court when Mr Lynn’s lawyer raised the possibility that Ms Clay was accidentally shot while the other men struggled over a shotgun.

Victoria Police forensic expert Mark Gellatly was asked about the scenario by Mr Lynn’s barrister Dermot Dann, KC.

“The two were wrestling over the gun causing an accidental discharge … which struck Ms Clay in the head while positioned on the near side of Hill’s vehicle,” Mr Dann said.

Mr Gellatly said he was not asked [Arboreal insertion: by police] to consider the scenario but suggested it was a “possible explanation”.

Neither police nor prosecutors allege Ms Clay was killed by an accidental shot.

Mr Gellatly said suspected blood stains on the armrest of Mr Hill’s white LandCruiser underwent forensic testing but they tested negative due to possible damage caused by a campsite fire.

Detectives covertly placed listening devices in Mr Lynn’s car and home in December 2020, which allegedly recorded him speaking to himself about the deaths of Mr Hill and Ms Clay.

It is alleged Mr Lynn tried to leave the valley via Wonnangatta Track but was forced to make a U-turn due to a closed river crossing. [Arboreal Comment: at the time, the claim was a locked gate.]

He allegedly left the area via the track’s eastern side towards Dargo before dumping their bodies in bushland near Union Spur Track.

Mr Lynn allegedly twice returned to where the bodies were left: in May and November 2020. During each visit, he tampered with their remains.

“This involved burning, dispersing, and partially interring them,” the summary states.

The cause of death is outstanding but bone fragments and a discharged bullet containing Ms Clay’s DNA were later found, police say. Police allege a piece of Ms Clay’s skull was found at the campsite and her blood was detected on the canopy of Mr Hill’s LandCruiser.
[Arboreal comment: According to the ABC, the discovery of the bullet and bone fragment it seems occurred over two years after Mr Hill and Ms Clay's disappearance: "Prosecutors said further forensic evidence was discovered at Bucks Camp, almost two years after Mr Hill and Ms Clay were reported missing. Ref.
It is interesting from a "how one does an investigation" point of view why the bone and bullet and also the blood on the vehicle was not found at the time but much later. I recall that Mr Hill's vehicle was returned to his family relatively quickly. I would have thought it would have been subjected to intense examination at the time, including luminol and the use of special lights that reveal the presence of blood. I am not suggesting any mis or mal feasance but am just curious.
What do others think?]

 

[Arboreal]

My mate also sent me the another report - which I hae edited down but do have the original. Again, I have inserted comments.
PING! THE CLUES THAT LED COPS TO GREG LYNN
By Miles Proust
21 January 2023
Herald-Sun

The journalist, Miles Proust, presents the nub of the case:

The campers’ case is not a whodunit; rather, a jury is likely to be asked to determine two complex questions: What happened in the Wonnangatta Valley? And can police, without eyewitnesses, prove beyond reasonable doubt that Mr Hill and Ms Clay were murdered?

He then sets out some of the facts provided this past week during the committal hearing:

... a mobile phone “ping” and security cameras near the Mt Hotham ski resort led investigators to Mr Lynn.

Mr Lynn’s blue Nissan Patrol was captured by automatic number plate recognition cameras on the Great Alpine Rd near Mt Hotham on the morning of March 21 – the same morning as the alleged murders. [Wrong. The police allege the murders occurred the previous evening, after 18:00 hrs - as the journalist later nores. see below.] Mr Hill’s mobile sent a “ping” to a nearby phone tower at the same time.

Four months after the couple’s disappearance, Detective Senior Constable Abbey Justin paid a visit to Mr Lynn, 56, at his home in Caroline Springs in Melbourne’s outer west.

By that time, police had eliminated the owners of 11 of the 12 vehicles captured on the plate recognition cameras from their investigation.

When she arrived, Constable Justin noticed Mr Lynn’s vehicle had been repainted from navy to beige.

“We needed to confirm who was driving.” Mr Lynn spoke with detectives for about an hour.

By December [Arboreal comment: 2020?] listening devices had been placed in Mr Lynn’s car and home. His phone was tapped and calls, messages and data monitored.

For almost a year, Mr Lynn went about his everyday life, seemingly unaware investigators were monitoring him.

Police allege that while at home or while on solo camping trips Mr Lynn spoke to himself about the deaths of Mr Hill and Ms Clay.

In November 2021, Mr Lynn was arrested in remote bushland in the Licola area of Gippsland [Arboreal comment: near Arbuckle junction.]

On the same day, his home was raided and firearms including rifles, pistols and shotguns allegedly found.

Days after his arrest, the missing pair’s remains were found in remote bushland following an extensive search north of Dargo.

Police say they were murdered later that night.

On Tuesday, the first theory about the couple’s deaths was aired by Mr Lynn’s lawyer, Dermot Dann, KC.

He asked Victoria Police forensic expert Mark Gellatly about a scenario in which Ms Clay was accidentally shot while the other men struggled over a shotgun.

“The two were wrestling over the gun causing an accidental discharge … which struck Ms Clay in the head while positioned on the near side of Hill’s vehicle,” Mr Dann said.

Mr Gellatly replied it could not be ruled out.

“It’s a possible explanation at this point,” he said.

In documents released to the media on Tuesday, Mr Gellatly said investigators provided him with information that Mr Lynn had confronted Mr Hill and Ms Clay because he was “annoyed” about a drone they were flying in the campsite where they were both staying.

In the scenario put to Mr Gellatly, Mr Hill then grabbed a shotgun from Mr Lynn’s car before a struggle ensued and it was accidentally discharged, striking Ms Clay in the head.

Mr Lynn then fatally stabbed Mr Hill during a fight, court documents allege. Neither police nor prosecutors formally alleged that scenario took place, but the fact Mr Gellatly was tasked to examine items, including both men’s cars, based on that scenario, suggests it is one of the main working theories.

Forensic experts were unable to determine the precise causes of Mr Hill and Ms Clay’s deaths, but police allege bone fragments and a discharged bullet containing Ms Clay’s DNA were later found at the campsite.

Blood stains were found on the canopy of Mr Hill’s Toyota LandCruiser, with DNA testing revealing Ms Clay as the likely source, Mr Gellatly stated.

Police are yet to reveal details of what they allege happened in the camp ground, but they maintain Mr Lynn acted with “murderous intent”.

“The circumstances of their deaths, and the accused’s behaviour afterwards are consistent with the accused having intended to cause death or at least cause each of them really serious injury,” a summary of the police investigation filed in court states.

“After killing Hill and Clay, the accused made immediate and overt efforts to contaminate the crime scene and conceal the offences, including destroying the evidence and setting fire to the scene.” After carrying out the killings, police allege, Mr Lynn placed a gas bottle in the couple’s tent and set fire to their camp before fleeing with their bodies in his trailer – which investigators believe was later sold and has yet to be recovered.

It’s alleged he tried to leave the valley via Wonnangatta Track on the Myrtleford side but was forced to turn around due to a closed river crossing.

Another camper, Tom Matthews, told the court he was woken by the sound of a vehicle towing a trailer past his camp in the middle of the night.

“I found this to be quite strange as it was very late and unusual for cars to be driving around at this time,” he said.

Mr Matthews said he thought the driver was alone because he did not hear anyone else assist them as they performed a difficult U-turn in the dark.

Police allege Mr Lynn left the area via the valley’s eastern side towards Dargo before he dumped the bodies near Union Spur Track and drove home.

Mr Lynn also allegedly ditched the pair’s belongings including Mr Hill’s drone, the keys for his LandCruiser and their mobile phones – none of which has been found.

Investigators believe Mr Lynn returned to the area twice – in May and November 2020 – when he allegedly tampered with their remains.

“The accused is alleged to have returned to the area to implement measures to try to destroy the remains of Hill and Clay,” the summary states.

“This involved burning, dispersing and partially interring them.” Mr Hill’s remains were later identified through biological testing while Ms Clay was identified by jewellery and items at the scene, investigators said.

At the hearing’s conclusion, Mr Lynn is then expected to enter a formal plea of not guilty.

Magistrate Brett Sonnet will then decide, either on Monday or at a later date, as to whether there is enough evidence for Mr Lynn to stand trial in the Supreme Court.

 

[Arboreal]

Removed duplicate post. Apologies folks - my browser and internet connection are making my posts go haywire!

 

[TootsieFootsie]

Accused camper killer makes bid to withhold 'explosive' details

Lawyers for a number of media organisations have challenged the suppression

www.bordermail.com.au

Lead investigator Detective Senior Constable Brett Florence is expected to be cross-examined by Lynn's barrister Dermot Dann when a committal hearing continues in Melbourne Magistrates Court on Monday.

Among the evidence Detective Florence and others are expected to be questioned about are Lynn's formal record of interview - taken over four days between November 22 and 25, 2021.

Magistrate Brett Sonnet questioned what the prejudice was in media waiting until a possible trial to report on the contents of Lynn's police interview.

But Corey Jankie, representing the ABC, said that wasn't the legal test for suppression orders, noting the legal assumption is that all material may be published.

Media reporting of the case demonstrated the substantial public interest in this case, he said.

Sam White, for the Nine Network, added that the law required only the "bare minimum" to be suppressed to prevent prejudice to an accused.

"We say the public has a right to know about the conduct of these proceedings," he said.

 

[AussieIan]

The only thing that doesn't make sense to me if GL killed them on purpose is if RH was stabbed to death and CC shot (both verified by our insiders) why would he take the close physical risk of a knife encounter with RH, even being older it still puts GL at considerable risk then shoot CC?

Just seems a bit back to front in terms of threat priorities. Not saying I agree with GLs version but I think it's unusual. Are there any other cases like that?

 

[TootsieFootsie]

Defence lawyers push to keep Greg Lynn’s ‘explosive’ police interviews a secret

Lawyers fear “explosive” information contained in police interviews with Greg Lynn – the former Jetstar pilot accused of killing campers Russell Hill and Carol Clay – could have a detrimental impact on any upcoming trial.

www.theage.com.au

Four lawyers representing numerous media outlets opposed the application on Friday, arguing any “blanket order” suppressing the publication of the contents of two entire interviews was excessive.

The matter is due to return to court on Monday, when witnesses – including leading police investigator Brett Florence and a ballistics expert – are scheduled to give evidence.



Might be behind a paywall

 

[KathPlumber]

At mate who has access sent me this edited report from the herald Sun. I have the original but have edited it down so as to comply with copyright. Also, I have inserted some comments here and there.

‘WRESTLING OVER GUN’
Herald Sun; Melbourne, Vic.
18 Jan 2023: p.5
By Milles Proust

According to police, listening devices recorded accused Greg Lynn talking to himself about Russell Hill and Carol Clay nearly a year after their deaths.

The first theory on what happened to Mr Hill & Ms Clay was revealed in court when Mr Lynn’s lawyer raised the possibility that Ms Clay was accidentally shot while the other men struggled over a shotgun.

Victoria Police forensic expert Mark Gellatly was asked about the scenario by Mr Lynn’s barrister Dermot Dann, KC.

“The two were wrestling over the gun causing an accidental discharge … which struck Ms Clay in the head while positioned on the near side of Hill’s vehicle,” Mr Dann said.

Mr Gellatly said he was not asked [Arboreal insertion: by police] to consider the scenario but suggested it was a “possible explanation”.

Neither police nor prosecutors allege Ms Clay was killed by an accidental shot.

Mr Gellatly said suspected blood stains on the armrest of Mr Hill’s white LandCruiser underwent forensic testing but they tested negative due to possible damage caused by a campsite fire.

Detectives covertly placed listening devices in Mr Lynn’s car and home in December 2020, which allegedly recorded him speaking to himself about the deaths of Mr Hill and Ms Clay.

It is alleged Mr Lynn tried to leave the valley via Wonnangatta Track but was forced to make a U-turn due to a closed river crossing. [Arboreal Comment: at the time, the claim was a locked gate.]

He allegedly left the area via the track’s eastern side towards Dargo before dumping their bodies in bushland near Union Spur Track.

Mr Lynn allegedly twice returned to where the bodies were left: in May and November 2020. During each visit, he tampered with their remains.

“This involved burning, dispersing, and partially interring them,” the summary states.

The cause of death is outstanding but bone fragments and a discharged bullet containing Ms Clay’s DNA were later found, police say. Police allege a piece of Ms Clay’s skull was found at the campsite and her blood was detected on the canopy of Mr Hill’s LandCruiser.
[Arboreal comment: According to the ABC, the discovery of the bullet and bone fragment it seems occurred over two years after Mr Hill and Ms Clay's disappearance: "Prosecutors said further forensic evidence was discovered at Bucks Camp, almost two years after Mr Hill and Ms Clay were reported missing. Ref.
It is interesting from a "how one does an investigation" point of view why the bone and bullet and also the blood on the vehicle was not found at the time but much later. I recall that Mr Hill's vehicle was returned to his family relatively quickly. I would have thought it would have been subjected to intense examination at the time, including luminol and the use of special lights that reveal the presence of blood. I am not suggesting any mis or mal feasance but am just curious.
What do others think?]

I agree that it’s a curly one as to how the skull and lead evidence were found 2 years later. And yes I def recall that it was reported the car was returned to RH family members early on. Again, I don’t fully understand the significance or possible complications of these aspects of the investigation, but it only adds to the strangeness of the whole case and the ongoing reasons why none of us can get it out of our heads…

 

[KathPlumber]

SoMething else I’ve wondered about over the years is the Andrew Rule column implying a lack of communication between 2 rural police stations over this issue. (Deadline is the name of his column btw)

It turns out that a longtime Deadline contact was second at the scene of the camp in the Wonnangatta valley back in March last year. Our man (let’s call him Mick) was on a camping trip with his young son, Billy the Kid, grandson of a well-known mountain cattleman.

Mick and Billy wondered about the burned-out tent and scorched vehicle when they saw it that week.

Mick reported it to police at Sale and then, later, at Myrtleford — and was struck by the dismissive reception. And surprised that police at one station apparently did not know of the report already made at the other station.

Anyone would think they were using smoke signals instead of telephones.

Mick told the police they’d seen a white 4WD, similar to a Toyota HiLux, with a blue tarpaulin stretched over a frame on the back

I could have sworn that the column actually referenced the person making a 2nd report because he didn’t Think the first police took it seriously enough, But that’s either been edited out or I imagined/conjectured it.

(That white Hilux still confusing me tho. What’s the story there. Is that one of the Parks employees then? Am I wrong or is there another vehicle Kicking around in eye witness statements other than RH’s car and the blue Nissan?)

The article is linked on an old Websleuths thread here
Post in thread 'Australia - Russell Hill, 74, & Carol Clay, 72, Wonnangatta Valley, 20 Mar 2020 #4 *ARREST*'