drsleuth
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Australia - Siege/Ambush at Remote Property - 6 Dead Including 2 Police/Neighbor - Wieambilla (Queensland)
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drsleuth
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Queensland police not told of 'doomsday' ideas before cop killings
www.9news.com.au
NSW Police threats not handed to Queensland before cops killed
Threatening emails from a man who went on to fatally shoot three people in Queensland were not handed over by NSW Police due to procedural requirements, a coroner has heard.
drsleuth
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Inquest told Gareth Train's email threats left out of briefing to Queensland police before Wieambilla shootings
NSW Police were aware of Gareth Train's email threats that police would be "dealt with" if they went to his property but didn't inform Queensland officers before they attended the Wieambilla property in 2022, an inquest has heard.
www.abc.net.au
Gareth Train's threatening emails not included in briefing to Queensland police the day of Wieambilla shootings, inquest hears
The court has previously been told that in the police system a summary of an investigation is known as a 'narrative'.
The narrative relating to Nathaniel Train included reports that Gareth Train was "paranoid" and had a "dislike for police".
Queensland police were made aware of these reports, and the fact that Nathaniel Train was a licensed firearm holder.
However, when passing on information about the Trains, Detective Senior Constable Montgomery attached the first narrative in the system, which was created 11 days earlier, but not the most recent 'narrative' that had been submitted at around 10.30am on the morning of the shooting.
This narrative included reports about Gareth Train's emails.
drsleuth
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Police officers behind 'welfare check' turned fatal to testify
A coroner investigating the deaths of six people in rural Queensland is due to hear from police officers wh...
www.9news.com.au
Police officers behind 'welfare check' turned fatal to testify at Wieambilla inquest
A coroner investigating the deaths of six people in rural Queensland is due to hear from police officers who planned the "welfare check" that turned into a deadly shooting.
Queensland Constable Stephanie Abbott is due to give evidence about the background checks she did in respect of the Trains.
Acting Sergeants Justin Drier and Matthew Minz, officers in charge of the Chinchilla and Tara police stations respectively, will give evidence about their decision to send the four junior officers to the Trains' Wieambilla property.
Detective Senior Sergeant Duncan Gorrie and Detective Chief Inspector Garry Watts will give their opinions on the decisions made during the missing person investigation.
scapa
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Inquest told Gareth Train's email threats left out of briefing to Queensland police before Wieambilla shootings
NSW Police were aware of Gareth Train's email threats that police would be "dealt with" if they went to his property but didn't inform Queensland officers before they attended the Wieambilla property in 2022, an inquest has heard.
Gareth Train's threatening emails not included in briefing to Queensland police the day of Wieambilla shootings, inquest hears
The court has previously been told that in the police system a summary of an investigation is known as a 'narrative'.
The narrative relating to Nathaniel Train included reports that Gareth Train was "paranoid" and had a "dislike for police".
Queensland police were made aware of these reports, and the fact that Nathaniel Train was a licensed firearm holder.
However, when passing on information about the Trains, Detective Senior Constable Montgomery attached the first narrative in the system, which was created 11 days earlier, but not the most recent 'narrative' that had been submitted at around 10.30am on the morning of the shooting.
This narrative included reports about Gareth Train's emails.
So the police in charge of activating the welfare check knew from the extant "narrative" that
- Train was paranoid
- Train disliked / hated police
- Train(s) were armed
But not yet that
- Gareth Train had recently made direct criminal threats concerning what he might do to police who came onto his property
Armed with that first section of analysis but without knowing about the recent direct threats, the decision was made to send 4 junior officers.
I'm guessing that a "narrative" system update that prioritizes and redflags critical info so it's seen first and not simply in the order in which it appeared is required.
Terrible situation, made still more shocking somehow by the chronology of this inquest, IMO.
drsleuth
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Police would not have been sent to Wieambilla ambush if killer’s emails had been passed on, inquest hears
‘Routine’ job that turned fatal would not have been initiated had NSW police passed on threatening emails to Queensland colleagues, court told
Police would not have been sent to Wieambilla ambush if killer’s emails had been passed on, inquest hears
‘Routine’ job that turned fatal would not have been initiated had NSW police passed on threatening emails to Queensland colleagues, court toldQueensland police constable Stephanie Abbott, who emailed the four officers to pass on the duty, said she would not have done so if she had seen the messages.
Abbott told the inquest she would have wanted to know more information before jumping the fence on a large property and “I’d look at involving specialist units, or at least have someone rifle trained and ballistic vests on” if doing so.
snip
Acting sergeant Justin Drier testified that he advised her on 12 December, and stood by as Abbott conducted checks for flags on the 251 Wains Road, Wieambilla, address on the Queensland police system.
“There was no flags or warnings at that actual address on our QPrime system,” he said.
snip
At the time Drier considered it a “routine” job, but if he had seen the emails from Gareth Train it would have turned it into a “high-risk address attendance”, he said.
“I would not have sent a crew, I would have [sought] advice,” he said.
The inquest heard they could have contacted the criminal investigative branch, based in Dalby, for advice.
Det Chief Insp Garry Watts said if he had been contacted and sent the emails he would have asked intelligence officers to conduct more in-depth checks than the frontline officers were able to.
They might have contacted specialist teams, such as the fixated person’s unit, he said.
“I don’t believe we would have sent four police there,” Watts said.
He said there was no urgency to the task, which could have waited for additional checks.
CredibleSauce
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Probably impossible the way things are divided up by state here, but you’d think a federal missing persons register (along with the national firearms register) wouldn’t be the worst thing.
From what has come out in the inquest I don’t think it would necessarily have prevented this specific situation, but I can’t see why it would hurt operationally to have all of this information stored centrally and for each jurisdiction to be able to access and add information the same way they’d add to their existing databases?
Ellery84
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So a NSW police officer performed CPR on Nathaniel Train when he had an heart attack at school, and saved his life, and then Nathaniel turned and was complicit in killing a police officer in the siege on his brother’s property over a year later.
Sgt Thorpe was the officer who performed CPR on Nathaniel when he had his cardiac arrest at the school on Aug 10th 2021 ( some , may say too well IMO) His wife also worked with Nathaniel.
Lots more in article
It’s just selfish, unnecessary behaviour on the part of Nathaniel Train. What had the police ever done to Nathaniel apart from assist him in arguably the worst moment of his life, and work with him proactively in his role as a school Principal, both in QLD and in NSW?
I wonder if Sgt Thorpe would do anything differently if he had a crystal ball….?
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Ellery84
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I personally think some of this testimony from the woman close to Nathaniel is a bit questionable…. All of my own comments and wonderings are italicised here.
“The woman said Nathaniel had tried to convince her to come to Queensland, and when she pleaded with him to return to New South Wales where he lived, he told her, "he was in the place God told him he had to be".
I cannot imagine he asked her to come to QLD.
“Communication cut off months earlier.”
“The court heard the woman cut off communication from Nathaniel in May 2022…” if she broke up with him or cut off comms, why did she go on to make a missing persons report in December? You’re either communicating or you’re not. If you’re done with someone, why not just leave them alone?
“…and dropped off some of his belongings to the Wieambilla property, but did not enter and did not see any of the Trains.”
Why didn’t she enter the property? Was she concerned about her safety?
You go all the way up to Tara to drop off your ex’s belongings and you don’t bother like even opening the gate or making sure the items make their way into the house safely?
She said she was constantly concerned about Nathaniel's welfare and mental health, but her concerns escalated when his brother, Gareth, forwarded a message from Nathaniel, which stated he was "well and going out bush camping for a few months".
If she was so concerned about his wellbeing and mental health, why did she go no contact from May 2022 and then break into his email account and start forwarding some of the emails to police? I wonder if she was a bit of a Nancy Drew type and wanted to know what he was up to due to curiosity and a sense that she was entitled to know about his mysterious new life?
Wieambilla inquest hears haunting final message to woman who reported Nathaniel Train missing
The next morning, she learned all three Trains were dead and heard news reports of what unfolded on the property. The inquest continues.
I wonder if it’s truly accurate that this woman learned about their deaths the next morning. I’m quite sure that unfolding and breaking news related to the siege was broadcast 24/7.
Surely she knew that was their property on the news the evening before? I mean, she had been there to drop off Nathaniel’s items. She knew what the property looked like….
“The woman said Nathaniel had tried to convince her to come to Queensland, and when she pleaded with him to return to New South Wales where he lived, he told her, "he was in the place God told him he had to be".
I cannot imagine he asked her to come to QLD.
“Communication cut off months earlier.”
“The court heard the woman cut off communication from Nathaniel in May 2022…” if she broke up with him or cut off comms, why did she go on to make a missing persons report in December? You’re either communicating or you’re not. If you’re done with someone, why not just leave them alone?
“…and dropped off some of his belongings to the Wieambilla property, but did not enter and did not see any of the Trains.”
Why didn’t she enter the property? Was she concerned about her safety?
You go all the way up to Tara to drop off your ex’s belongings and you don’t bother like even opening the gate or making sure the items make their way into the house safely?
She said she was constantly concerned about Nathaniel's welfare and mental health, but her concerns escalated when his brother, Gareth, forwarded a message from Nathaniel, which stated he was "well and going out bush camping for a few months".
If she was so concerned about his wellbeing and mental health, why did she go no contact from May 2022 and then break into his email account and start forwarding some of the emails to police? I wonder if she was a bit of a Nancy Drew type and wanted to know what he was up to due to curiosity and a sense that she was entitled to know about his mysterious new life?
Wieambilla inquest hears haunting final message to woman who reported Nathaniel Train missing
The next morning, she learned all three Trains were dead and heard news reports of what unfolded on the property. The inquest continues.
I wonder if it’s truly accurate that this woman learned about their deaths the next morning. I’m quite sure that unfolding and breaking news related to the siege was broadcast 24/7.
Surely she knew that was their property on the news the evening before? I mean, she had been there to drop off Nathaniel’s items. She knew what the property looked like….
imstilla.grandma
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The Wieambilla terrorists, Gareth, Stacey and Nathaniel Train. (Supplied)
Ryan was shown a brief email Montgomery sent to Queensland Police in the early afternoon of December 12, 2022 requesting they send one police vehicle to Gareth Train's remote bush property, west of Brisbane, to ask if he knew his brother's whereabouts.
By early evening that day, Nathaniel and Gareth Train had fatally shot Queensland Constables Matthew Arnold, 26, and Rachel McCrow, 29, in an ambush with high-powered rifles.
Montgomery said he attached to the email a police "narrative" report from the initial missing persons case for Nathaniel Train created on November 23, 2022
Queensland police not told of 'doomsday' ideas before cop killings
www.9news.com.au
What an incredibly bizarre interpretation of events. Sounds strangely familiar.
Ellery84
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Thanks for your feedback. I think Nathaniel’s ex partner’s behaviour was a bit odd, in retrospect.
Well first of all: It’s not a crime to go missing. So, Nathaniel had left his partner. This happens all of the time. People leave their wives and their husbands, partners, girlfriends and boyfriends. Sometimes they leave them for other partners. In this case, from what I’ve read and listened to on Podcasts, he left to go camping.
I am not excusing any of the things that the Trains did. There’s no justification for any of their actions. I just don’t know why she’s raised a missing persons report in the first place. It doesn’t make sense to me. Nathaniel’s own children did not lodge missing persons reports for their own biological father.
He had walked out in his partner. As far as I can see, they weren’t in a relationship at the time that she lodged the missing persons report, and she actually chose to go “non contact” from May of that year. That was her choice.
Her explanations don’t really add up. So what if Nathaniel wanted to live an itinerant life and go camping? Clearly he was relatively skilled at living that way.
There’s one other thing that nags at me: Nathaniel Train was indigenous and identified as indigenous. His children do also. And culturally, going “walkabout” is all about a spiritual journey, finding oneself out bush and connecting with Country and culture. There’s really nothing wrong with that.
And yes, he had a heart condition, but if he chose to not take his medication, that was his choice. He was an adult and had capacity to make his own medical decisions.
Her story just doesn’t add up to me. And that’s fine. It doesn’t have to add up.
This episode of the Ultimate Sacrifice podcast was quite informative:
“The Missing Persons Report.”
Episode 13: The Missing Persons Report
Podcast Episode · The Ultimate Sacrifice · 22/08/2024 · 45m
podcasts.apple.com
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nhmemorymaker
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Thanks for your feedback. I think Nathaniel’s ex partner’s behaviour was a bit odd, in retrospect.
Well first of all: It’s not a crime to go missing. So, Nathaniel had left his partner. This happens all of the time. People leave their wives and their husbands, partners, girlfriends and boyfriends. Sometimes they leave them for other partners. In this case, from what I’ve read and listened to on Podcasts, he left to go camping.
I am not excusing any of the things that the Trains did. There’s no justification for any of their actions. I just don’t know why she’s raised a missing persons report in the first place. It doesn’t make sense to me. Nathaniel’s own children did not lodge missing persons reports for their own biological father.
He had walked out in his partner. As far as I can see, they weren’t in a relationship at the time that she lodged the missing persons report, and she actually chose to go “non contact” from May of that year. That was her choice.
Her explanations don’t really add up. So what if Nathaniel wanted to live an itinerant life and go camping? Clearly he was relatively skilled at living that way.
There’s one other thing that nags at me: Nathaniel Train was indigenous and identified as indigenous. His children do also. And culturally, going “walkabout” is all about a spiritual journey, finding oneself out bush and connecting with Country and culture. There’s really nothing wrong with that.
And yes, he had a heart condition, but if he chose to not take his medication, that was his choice. He was an adult and had capacity to make his own medical decisions.
Her story just doesn’t add up to me. And that’s fine. It doesn’t have to add up.
This episode of the Ultimate Sacrifice podcast was quite informative:
“The Missing Persons Report.”
Episode 13: The Missing Persons Report
Podcast Episode · The Ultimate Sacrifice · 22/08/2024 · 45m
I can understand some of your "not adding up" comments.... but the overall behavior of keeping up with or even, being obsessed with an ex, is nothing new..
Remember how all three of them were so active in all the schools and colleges? When Stacey hooked up with Gareth, it does appear that Nathanial went on living a pretty normal life .
Also in Far North Queensland, Nathaniel Train had shifted to a school at Yorkey's Knob just north of Cairns where he featured in a local newspaper with Christmas baubles and glitter hanging from his beard. He was described as a "good natured" and "mild mannered" principal.
This is most likely when he was with the woman who is now speaking out. I can see how she might have felt attachment to him, even as he proceeded to get pulled into the crazier life and beliefs of Gareth. I think Stacey was very controlled by Gareth, and feel that Nathaniel was as well, after he left this "mild mannered" life .
In 2021, he resigned as executive principal from Walgett Community College Primary School after suffering a cardiac arrest....
He left his new partner and was the subject of a missing person's report to NSW police after his family lost contact with him on October 9. He was last seen in Dubbo on December 16, 2021.
I think she felt a real investment in the life of Nathanial at the time. i can see her behaviors of "being around" but not communicating as quite realistic.
Behind the Train family's twisted backstory — a trio of loners who carried out a deadly police shooting
There were many signs something was not right about Gareth Train and his wife Stacey before they joined his brother Nathaniel on a deadly shooting rampage in Queensland's Western Downs. This story contains content that readers may find distressing.
www.abc.net.au
CredibleSauce
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I don’t find any of this odd.Thanks for your feedback. I think Nathaniel’s ex partner’s behaviour was a bit odd, in retrospect.
Well first of all: It’s not a crime to go missing. So, Nathaniel had left his partner. This happens all of the time. People leave their wives and their husbands, partners, girlfriends and boyfriends. Sometimes they leave them for other partners. In this case, from what I’ve read and listened to on Podcasts, he left to go camping.
I am not excusing any of the things that the Trains did. There’s no justification for any of their actions. I just don’t know why she’s raised a missing persons report in the first place. It doesn’t make sense to me. Nathaniel’s own children did not lodge missing persons reports for their own biological father.
He had walked out in his partner. As far as I can see, they weren’t in a relationship at the time that she lodged the missing persons report, and she actually chose to go “non contact” from May of that year. That was her choice.
Her explanations don’t really add up. So what if Nathaniel wanted to live an itinerant life and go camping? Clearly he was relatively skilled at living that way.
There’s one other thing that nags at me: Nathaniel Train was indigenous and identified as indigenous. His children do also. And culturally, going “walkabout” is all about a spiritual journey, finding oneself out bush and connecting with Country and culture. There’s really nothing wrong with that.
And yes, he had a heart condition, but if he chose to not take his medication, that was his choice. He was an adult and had capacity to make his own medical decisions.
Her story just doesn’t add up to me. And that’s fine. It doesn’t have to add up.
This episode of the Ultimate Sacrifice podcast was quite informative:
“The Missing Persons Report.”
Episode 13: The Missing Persons Report
Podcast Episode · The Ultimate Sacrifice · 22/08/2024 · 45m
When you grow up in an environment with someone prone to delusional thinking or behaving erratically or reclusively or violently, it’s pretty reasonable that Stacey and Nathaniel’s children* somewhat accepted that if their Dad had left** his partner and bought into their uncle-step-dad’s DIY religion/sov cit/conspiracy nut value system, that he was essentially a lost cause and expected the three would just do their own weirdo thing by themselves out on their own weirdo block and they’d probably just continue to exist in a sporadic/low contact semi estrangement with him like they did with uncle Gar and Mum. (IMO of course, from my own experience growing up with a somewhat unhinged parent who has dipped in and out of their own weirdo phases).
If this kind of thing wasn’t familiar to the acquaintance of many years, she would have naturally been desperately concerned, hoping maybe that he’d see through Gareth’s efforts to demonise her because of her attempts to keep supporting him and that he’d snap out of it and come home. The kids were probably used to Gareth alienating family members but she can’t be blamed for having more hope that he’d at least see his children (who she seemed on reasonable terms with) so she knew he was alright or could get a sense of he was at least physically healthy or not.
It was coming up Christmas, she had concerns for his health, deep down maybe she was worried that Gareth had done something to harm him, or was stopping him from leaving. Lodging a missing persons report is a pretty reasonable point to get to and she’d clearly tried many other avenues.
The Trains don’t deserve any defending but the poor people in their lives who have been affected by their bull**** despite doing nothing wrong deserve plenty.
*who it appears were largely raised by uncle Gareth and mum Stacey (after he acted totally normal and not unhinged when he took up with his sister in law and shoved his brother out of his own marriage of course, same goes for her)
**without actually ending the relationship, just ghosting essentially
Ellery84
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It’s my understanding that she had been
in Nathaniel’s life for 16 years.
I agree she may have been hoping he would come home.
His children didn’t seem as concerned as she did. But as you said, they were probably more used to the weirdness.
Also, A Train seemed to think the missing person’s report wouldn’t yield good results, which was accurate.
Yes, that is a good point.
Especially their innocent (adult) kids, who now have to grow up without all of their three parents - and knowing all of the harm those deceased parents had done to so many lives and families. I can’t even imagine.
Ghosting is a good word for it.
SouthAussie
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ABC has put together a kind of rolling digital presentation - not sure what to call it.
Today would have been Rachel McCrow's 31st birthday.
I hadn't realised that she spent her last few seconds recording messages to her family - messages they were not told about for 3 months.
I also hadn't realised that Gareth Train had been trying to get his two stepchildren to be a part of his madness, in 2020.
The McCrow family was not informed until three months after the tragedy that Rachel McCrow had recorded final messages for them in the seconds before she was killed.
“In the chaotic moments leading up to her brutal murder, she was telling us over and over, ‘I love you’,” Dr Judy McCrow, Rachel’s mother said.
By the end of 2020, Gareth began to ramp up a recruitment campaign to enlist his two stepchildren and his brother, Nathaniel, who was working as a school principal in New South Wales.
Gareth’s deadly influence over his brother prevailed.
It started as a routine police call. By the end of the night, six people were dead
Today would have been Rachel McCrow's 31st birthday.
I hadn't realised that she spent her last few seconds recording messages to her family - messages they were not told about for 3 months.
I also hadn't realised that Gareth Train had been trying to get his two stepchildren to be a part of his madness, in 2020.
The McCrow family was not informed until three months after the tragedy that Rachel McCrow had recorded final messages for them in the seconds before she was killed.
“In the chaotic moments leading up to her brutal murder, she was telling us over and over, ‘I love you’,” Dr Judy McCrow, Rachel’s mother said.
By the end of 2020, Gareth began to ramp up a recruitment campaign to enlist his two stepchildren and his brother, Nathaniel, who was working as a school principal in New South Wales.
Gareth’s deadly influence over his brother prevailed.
It started as a routine police call. By the end of the night, six people were dead
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CredibleSauce
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Thanks for the reply by the way, I must admit I was a bit hostile in my own response - feeling a bit defensive of the people left dealing with the fallout of this horror story evidently - so I appreciate you considering my thoughts on the situation.
Ellery84
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No problem, I am pretty open minded and happy to view events through a myriad of different lenses. I appreciate reading your perspective.
I just found an old news article of the original missing persons report on Nathaniel Train. It might be of interest to some members here:
“Nathaniel Train, aged 46, was last seen in Dubbo on Thursday December 16, 2021, however, he remained in contact with his family until Sunday October 9, 2022.
When he could not be contacted by family or friends, he was reported missing to officers from Central North Police District on Sunday, December 4 2022, who immediately commenced inquiries into his whereabouts.
Police and family hold serious concerns for Nathaniel's welfare.
Nathaniel is described as being of Aboriginal/Torres Strait Islander appearance, about 183cm tall, of thin build, and has a long grey beard.”
“He was last seen wearing a white shirt and jeans and is known to always wear brown boots.”
“Anyone with information into Nathaniel's whereabouts is urged to contact Crime Stoppers on 1800 333 000 or https://nsw.crimestoppers.com.au.
Information is treated in strict confidence. The public is reminded not to report information via NSW Police social media pages.”
MISSING: Appeal to locate Nathaniel Train
Police and family hold serious concerns for Nathaniel's welfare.
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Ellery84
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“Speaking outside Brisbane Coroners Court on the final day of a five-week inquest, Const Arnold's mother Sue said her family and the McCrows still had critical unanswered questions.”
"(The hearings) confirmed our long-held belief that Nathaniel Train was not a missing person, rather someone who had lost touch with his family," Mrs Arnold said.
"So, our children were executed for what ... a loss of contact?" Mrs Arnold said.
Nathaniel Train joined Gareth and his sibling's wife Stacey, 45, to fatally shoot neighbour Alan Dare, 58, soon after killing the two constables.
Police never needed to attend Wieambilla, families say
"(The hearings) confirmed our long-held belief that Nathaniel Train was not a missing person, rather someone who had lost touch with his family," Mrs Arnold said.
"So, our children were executed for what ... a loss of contact?" Mrs Arnold said.
Nathaniel Train joined Gareth and his sibling's wife Stacey, 45, to fatally shoot neighbour Alan Dare, 58, soon after killing the two constables.
Police never needed to attend Wieambilla, families say
jjleroche
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Great post SLouTh, which IMO explains much of how this situation went so terribly wrong. So tragic