Australia - Warriena Wright, 26, dies in balcony fall, Surfers Paradise, Aug 2014 #9

[Estelle]

Question

Why did he take her belongings if he wanted her to leave.

And why not chuck her out the front door.

Are some really trying to say that Tostee wasn't trying to make her pay the ultimate price?

Then he had pizza?

Your passport is your life. And he held on to hers.

So wouldn't this be false imprisonment?

She could not go back to NZ without it.

 

[Cleaver Greene]

No need to speculate. W did not want to be removed to the balcony. Hence the repetitive 'No's.' She made that very clear, but, she had just unlawfully assaulted Tostee with that metal object (and that could have killed him or caused GBH) and he acted completely reasonably and with great restraint in just removing her to the balcony. He could have punched her as often as was required to neutralise her in that way. He didn't. He took the least aggressive solution. Isolate her where she can do no further harm to him or damage to his Unit. Yet, in taking that minimal option, he is vilified because W then acted completely irrationally. Not guilty.

Sorry Elde Fruit but I think even above you are speculating by saying she was screaming because she didn't want to be removed to the balcony. She may have been screaming because she didn't want to go to the balcony. She may have been screaming because she thought GT would kill her. We don't know. We CANT know. Reasonable doubt.

 

[CleverKnot]

And the noises on the tape followed by NO! (x32) and not being allowed to just go home, are what in your view (and those lawyers' views), speculation?

Pleased I asked. Now I know there was no substantiation to those views.

There isn't some sort of life manual, or elementary school training in the right things to do in an altercation between two human beings.

Many times, the only course of action, is de-escalation. You can't wait for the perfect moment, or hope a person is going to stop. Sometimes, a physical separation is required. Saner heads can then work out the logistics from that point on.

She says no no like anyone would as they are being forced somewhere. Then, there is separation.

At that point, saner heads have to prevail. Could he have possibly known she would climb over the balcony? When the door closed, was that her only possible course of action?

More often than not, this sort of dispute would end with her in the hospital after a beating, stabbing, rape or all of the above. He chose to separate in the midst of chaos, and literally had seconds of calm to contemplate what to do next before she fell.

Regardless of his earlier words, he could have changed his mind at any point. In fact, he could have thrown her off the balcony, and his actions prove the threat was empty. By all accounts, he did the right thing by physically separating each other, involving witnesses, and ending the physical violence.

 

[emirates1957]

I keep coming back to the point where the whole thing escalated. I'm only going by the transcript cos I can't find the audio with the whole thing.

2.09am: Male states she is a 'woos' and offers her food. Says that if she 'was going to go all kung fu on me then I will kick your *advertiser censored**'. Calm conversation.
2.10am: Sound of a struggle. Female: 'That really hurt my vagina.' Male laughing and female replies: 'You sound like a *advertiser censored****'.
Obviously he's not going to like being called a ****** after being called one a million times by his fellow brahs, but I don't think this is what flips him.
2.12am: Male states, she is insane. Male say: 'Alright I give up what do you want' There is a loud bang and he says, 'oww'.
2.12.31am: Male say: 'I will do what you want. I will be your sex slave (possibly having rocks thrown)'.
2.13am: Male says: 'Alright, that is enough, That is enough.' ...female says, 'no seriously, I have to have a ****.'
She can't go to the toilet. She's restrained. The way she says "no, seriously, I have to have a ****" she's reiterating the fact she needs to poo. Does she say it more than once in the actual audio or has she been partially restrained the whole time and is throwing pebbles at him obstinately because she wants to leave/go to the toilet? She was tied up earlier in the night. Anyhoo, he is annoyed at this point.
2.14AM: Male says, 'You are not my kind of girl. You have worn out your welcome. You have to leave. Female says. 'ok, it is all good.' Female out of breath. Male states, 'you have to leave'. Female replies 'OK. It's all good'. He says, 'I thought you were a nice girl.'
She's agreeing to leave here. He's restraining her. She isn't breathing properly.
2.14.51am: Male says, you are *advertiser censored**ing insane'.
2.15am: Male states I think you are kidding but you are not. Go on right now. Male states — I do need a sample of DNA.
He's talking about her need to poo here. He thinks she's kidding, just trying to trick him into letting her go from however he's restraining her, which is what I wondered as well, if she thought telling him she needed to poo would make him let her go. But he calls her bluff - go on right now (poo), and makes his stupid joke about dna.
2.15.31am: Male says, 'I thought you were kidding and I have taken enough. This is *advertiser censored**ing bull**** ... you are lucky I haven't chucked you off my balcony you god damn psycho little b**** ... who the *advertiser censored** do you think you ..'.
What happened here?? It's a matter of moments after he's joking about needing her dna and calling her bluff about needing to poo. Something happens that escalates the situation. I thought you were kidding about what? Needing to poo?? What happened here?
2.16am: 'What. What - got something to say- say it.' Female breathing heavily. Female states '(unintelligible) sexist'. Male replies, 'yeah right. I am the one who is injured. You don't have a god damn scratch on you'.
He's obviously restricting her ability to speak. The "what? what? got something to say? say it" is a taunt. He's taunting her because he knows she's not in a position where she can reply easily. Probably gagging her or choking her. The response from her is intriguing. It's not your usual run of the mill insult. She insulted him with fa**ot earlier, something a lot of people say because it's supposed to be insulting to men. This time, though, she calls him a sexist which is interesting.
2.16.51am: Male states: 'I thought that you were just playing around but I am *advertiser censored**ing sick of this s***. You're a god damn psycho. I am going to let you go. I am going to walk you out of this apartment just the way you are.
'You are not going to collect any of your belongings, you are just going to walk out and I am going to slam the door on you, do you understand. If you try and pull anything. I'll knock you out, I'll knock you the *advertiser censored** out. Do you understand? Do you understand? Do you understand?
This is also weird. "just the way you are". I don't think this is just about her belongings. I think there was something about her appearance that he thought would humiliate her if he was to walk her out just the way she was in that moment.

Breaking down the initial audio 2 years ago it sounded like WW needed to or did defecate (which I mentioned most likely in the second thread). In the space of 3 minutes the situation escalated exponentially. It has been mentioned before that WW needed to go to the bathroom for a pee. Unfortunately I can only go with a gut feeling......this was the catalyst for GT. Maybe something he could not control.

 

[Karinna]

There isn't some sort of life manual, or elementary school training in the right things to do in an altercation between two human beings.

Many times, the only course of action, is de-escalation. You can't wait for the perfect moment, or hope a person is going to stop. Sometimes, a physical separation is required. Saner heads can then work out the logistics from that point on.

She says no no like anyone would as they are being forced somewhere. Then, there is separation.

At that point, saner heads have to prevail. Could he have possibly known she would climb over the balcony? When the door closed, was that her only possible course of action?

More often than not, this sort of dispute would end with her in the hospital after a beating, stabbing, rape or all of the above. He chose to separate in the midst of chaos, and literally had seconds of calm to contemplate what to do next before she fell.

Regardless of his earlier words, he could have changed his mind at any point. In fact, he could have thrown her off the balcony, and his actions prove the threat was empty. By all accounts, he did the right thing by physically separating each other, involving witnesses, and ending the physical violence.

Why didn't he just leave his apartment which i'm sure he was capable of doing and go get help from daddy if he was such a wuss?

 

[Estelle]

IDK zed maybe because he is exactly what he called Warriena, ie; 'a psycho...'?

Yes that's what is called projection. In other words, he called Warriena "psycho" because that is what he is himself.

 

[CleverKnot]

Awww, what a guy eh. If my son's were so intimidated so terribly by a 50 something kg. female i think it would be houston we have a problem. Unless said female was pointing a loaded gun at them.
And people that have been plied with a substance they have never had before by someone that didn't tell them what exactly they were drinking could very well act irrationally i would think? GT was the problem. What about that? And thats not speculation either.

There's the "be a man" myth again.

It's not like on TV where people are neatly restrained or treated with pillow softness.

At some point, one of your sons will date a woman with BPD or a related illness, and you will see a whole new perspective.

 

[CleverKnot]

Sorry Elde Fruit but I think even above you are speculating by saying she was screaming because she didn't want to be removed to the balcony. She may have been screaming because she didn't want to go to the balcony. She may have been screaming because she thought GT would kill her. We don't know. We CANT know. Reasonable doubt.

And then he closes the door.

Oh. He didn't kill me.

 

[Elde Fruit]

Posted by CleverKnot:

By all accounts, he did the right thing by physically separating each other, involving witnesses, and ending the physical violence.

It is as simple as that folks.

 

[Tortoise]

No need to speculate. W did not want to be removed to the balcony. Hence the repetitive 'No's.' She made that very clear, but, she had just unlawfully assaulted Tostee with that metal object (and that could have killed him or caused GBH) and he acted completely reasonably and with great restraint in just removing her to the balcony. He could have punched her as often as was required to neutralise her in that way. He didn't. He took the least aggressive solution. Isolate her where she can do no further harm to him or damage to his Unit. Yet, in taking that minimal option, he is vilified because W then acted completely irrationally. Not guilty.

Irrelevant to a guilty verdict being overturned on appeal. The defence can't argue that the jury was not satisfied BRD.

 

[Karinna]

There's the "be a man" myth again.

It's not like on TV where people are neatly restrained or treated with pillow softness.

At some point, one of your sons will date a woman with BPD or a related illness, and you will see a whole new perspective.

There is no evidence that GT has BPD that i'm aware of. And there is no evidence that WW had BPD either. Why did he not Leave his apartment if he was so scared of her? Because he is a liar covering up what he really did IMO.

 

[SouthAussie]

The problem is that according to the Strata title, it owns the balcony and event the balcony doors and front door. You only own from the paint of the inside walls. The balcony is common property. But IMO that is for the owners. However, when renting, you have exclusive access to the balcony as it is included in the cost of the rent for your apartment. So, IMO, it is a borderline case of how one thinks about it. We would describe our apartment as having it own balcony as part of your home. So I would have argued that what Strata title laws say is not relevant here. It is about how we use English to describe our home. Our balconies are part of our homes.

Also the apartment has its own burglar alarm. I have never had a burglar alarm but can a person activate it themselves in they are in danger in their own home? Some activate the fire brigade or police, I think, but is it only when there is an actual fire or burglary (when you are not home) when it activates itself? i am thinking of the Oscar Pistorius case when he could have activated an alarm. Please excuse my ignorance but I know some "go back to base" but not all do and would like to know if you can activate yourself. Mine is a simple one which I cannot activate but there used to be one which alerts the police/fire brigade here but it stopped working and I did not replace it due to costs.

Plus, I don't think the judge meant it was okay to confine Warriena just to the balcony. I believe he was saying that it was okay to confine her anywhere (bathroom, bedroom, wherever) IF the jury found that he used reasonable force to separate them.

And that is why it comes down to reasonable force, and what that constitutes.

I think I read a few days ago that reasonable force should be only what is necessary, and be somewhat equivalent to any force Warriena used (if Tostee's actions were in self defence ). Which, I believe, is why those that feel that Tostee did not do anything wrong want to believe that those were not choking sounds. Whereas those that have been choked or know more about choking can hear that is what was going on. So, they leave it to the jury to decide whether Warriena was being choked/overly restrained, whether Tostee used far too much force on a petite, drunk, oxygen deprived girl.

imo

 

[Cleaver Greene]

And then he closes the door.

Oh. He didn't kill me.

That then goes to whether her actions in climbing over the balcony were reasonable. As GT's lawyer said, for climbing the balcony to be reasonable in the circumstances, GT would have to be posing an immediate and direct threat to her life, like coming after her with a knife. And the jury can't consider that a possibility because prosecution didn't allege it. Prosecution didn't allege it because there is no evidence that this happened.

 

[emirates1957]

It could be debating between murder and manslaughter

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Certainly hope so Pain Express.

 

[Tortoise]

All speculation (which is probably causing the jury difficulty because some of them probably want to speculate). Beyond reasonable doubt. There is no doubt she was terrified. But it is just speculation that she was terrified that he was going to hurt her.

There is a very good reason no experts were called to analyse the audio: because they would all just be speculating. Clearly her voice was restricted. But even prosecution can only go as far as "possibly" choked. Reasonable doubt right there.

I don't agree. Choking noises followed by fearful exclamations and then the victim trying to effect an escape from a balcony 14 floors up is not speculation.

 

[Elde Fruit]

Yes that's what is called projection. In other words, he called Warriena "psycho" because that is what he is himself.

And what if W called him a 'f xxgot?' What would that be?

 

[CleverKnot]

Why didn't he just leave his apartment which i'm sure he was capable of doing and go get help from daddy if he was such a wuss?

Likely, at the time, like most people, he wouldn't want to leave a stranger alone in his place to do god knows what when they are freaking out. Once it becomes physical, then it becomes a battle, and you don't just turn your back and walk away without risking your personal safety.

Most people, as things escalate, experience some denial that things are going to get as out of control as they do. Like many "good samaritans" that get killed, they naively fail to anticipate how out of control someone can become, relying rather on a mistaken belief in human decency.

 

[PainExpress]

If someone stranded me on a 14th floor balcony I would freak out.
I am afraid of heights but I'm not afraid of being up high, like in a building or a plane, or a theme park ride (if I felt safely secured in)

It's places like high balconies and near cliff edges that really freak me out. I've had that feeling that there was a magnet pulling me, like gravity wanting me to fall.
Does anyone else ever get that feeling ?

Yes all the time.

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[Tortoise]

Sorry Elde Fruit but I think even above you are speculating by saying she was screaming because she didn't want to be removed to the balcony. She may have been screaming because she didn't want to go to the balcony. She may have been screaming because she thought GT would kill her. We don't know. We CANT know. Reasonable doubt.

That is unreasonable doubt to my mind. You have to apply common sense experience of how the reasonable person acts.

 

[CleverKnot]

There is no evidence that GT has BPD that i'm aware of. And there is no evidence that WW had BPD either. Why did he not Leave his apartment if he was so scared of her? Because he is a liar covering up what he really did IMO.

That's not what I said. I said if one of your sons dates someone with such a disorder, your perspective on the "wussy man" will change dramatically.