Australia Australia - William Tyrrell, 3, Kendall, NSW, 12 Sep 2014 - #68

[Akai]

Your ETA, yes, if the three cars FFC said she saw were some kind of traumatic delusion, why not the drive as well?

On the crime commission charges, like SA I'll wait and see. A lot of things are involved in proving a lie, including the fact of the matter, and that the accused was not merely mistaken, and that the accused intended to mislead.

Yes, exactly, which is why I feel it has to be something pretty solid and concrete. I am not saying they will be found guilty, just that I would be surprised if police went with something that was interpretable or even understandable, because they'd just end up looking stupid and compromise the investigation, which has already had enough of these dramas.

 

[SouthAussie]

<RSBM>
The only way I can make a random scenario fit is if William was actually out of FM's sight for longer than she has said, whether because she simply doesn't have a clear idea of time or because she was worried about the consequences of saying he was gone for, say, 20 minutes. This gives him time to get much further away, perhaps where it is obvious he is not near his family, and somewhere less visible. It also gives a bit more time for someone to make the decision to take him.

I can understand the initial commentary that it was only 5 minutes, but I have never understood zealously sticking to it, whatever the original reason. If it was me, I'd be saying, "Look it could have been longer" even if I didn't think it was longer just to broaden the options of what may have happened, and because I would never trust that I could be so accurate about the time under those circumstances. To me the difference between 5 and even 15 minutes is significant here. That is not, BTW, a suggestion of guilt about anything.

I definitely think that this is a probability.
Laura Beacroft whittled it down to 10:05-10:20am. A full 15 mins or so.
(Laura has very good credentials, and was chosen by the police to represent them at the inquest.)

Laidlaw thinks it is 5 mins or so IIRC ... from 10:10-10:15am.

Our perception of time is often off. I could name many instances of this, from my own life. Where I thought something just took 5 mins, but if I look at the clock, more time has passed than 5 mins.

https://www.news.com.au/national/co...e/news-story/219eb525eb0e76070785485909574131

 

[JLZ]

If we go with abduction then we have a scenario where someone who was inclined to take a child just happened to be in the area at the right time. This, I can see. But it still has some unlikely elements to it because this is a cul-de-sac in a suburban country area. More significantly, however, we have the fact that FM says William was only out of her sight for about 5 minutes, maybe less. Kids can move quickly, but in my view that leaves him within viewing distance of the house and other houses in a fairly open area. Would a child sex offender who was not there for the purpose of nabbing William, take the risk of grabbing him when the parents could have actually seen him or anyone else could? Was there even time for it to happen - for the urge to be developed, for an instinctive plan to develop, for him to take William and be out of the area before FM saw him? I just simply can't see that happening.

Not necessarily someone who just happened to be passing by. There's the possibility that GO knew the family were there that morning and passed the information to FA. Perhaps FA used GO's car while GO was doing business in town, or perhaps FA approached Benaroon Drive on foot down the top-of-the-road track. In case he was on foot, I conjecture that William's remains were thrown into a wet ravine in Kendall Forest, perhaps encased in something to prevent the emanation of smell.

 

[Couldbe]

Could there be a possible scenario where the MFC collided with William when he was reversing his vehicle and hurrying to drive for his conference call meeting. Hence he was unaware that the accident had occurred, and nobody saw it happen.

When FFC noticed that William was quiet, she went outside to check and found him badly injured (maybe by then not alive). She freaked out and immediately thought that in an investigation into his death, she would be blamed and her life ruined.
She took things into her own hands and decided to hide his body somewhere, and if he was found by LE, she would hope it would be blamed on an abductor…….indeed, she appears to have been forming her own abduction theory by telling LE later about seeing parked vehicles and a suspicious man locking eyes with her.

When MFC returned from his errands, he searched frantically, even though he didn’t believe that William had wandered off, and an abduction possibility didn’t make sense to him .
He then wondered if he may have hit William while reversing his vehicle earlier because he remembered a bit of a bump but took no notice.
He wondered, also if FFC was hiding something.

He decided that he would just go along with FFC’s story of events, because he considered that would be the ‘best’ way to handle things.

Just suggesting as a possible scenario.

 

[Inplainsight]

And we now hear that the photo/camera metadata has been confirmed to show that William was alive, well, and happy at 9:37am.

And we now hear that no evidence of William has been found during the Nov 2021 search.

We also know that FM was (independently) seen at 10:40am, walking the street and searching for William.

And that the police were called at 10:56am, with the first officer arriving at 11:06am.

And that Laura Beacroft thinks that William disappeared between 10:05 and 10:20am.

Just not seeing adequate time for a domestic death and a cover up. imo


View attachment 340055

William Tyrrell's foster-mother charged with giving false information to Crime Commission

https://www.news.com.au/national/co...e/news-story/219eb525eb0e76070785485909574131

https://7news-com-au.cdn.ampproject...-be-probed-by-forensic-investigators-c-430968

I did not think the metadata on the WT photo's had been checked. This is what I understood from the inquest. Have I missed something ?

 

[SouthAussie]

https://7news-com-au.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/7news.com.au/news/court-justice/william-tyrrell-in-spider-man-suit-photo-to-be-probed-by-forensic-investigators-c-430968.amp?amp_js_v=a6&amp_gsa=1&usqp=mq331AQKKAFQArABIIACAw==#aoh=16500626332359&amp_ct=1650063019606&referrer=https://www.google.com&amp_tf=From %1$s&ampshare=https://7news.com.au/news/court-justice/william-tyrrell-in-spider-man-suit-photo-to-be-probed-by-forensic-investigators-c-430968

I did not think the metadata on the WT photo's had been checked. This is what I understood from the inquest. Have I missed something ?

Yes, there was a DT article two days ago that says that the metadata has been confirmed, the photo of William was taken at 9:37am.

Sleep posted the link yesterday.
I also posted the Google preview in the post you have replied to, so if anyone can't access the article they can see part of what was written about it.

 

[JLZ]

Yes, there was a DT article two days ago that says that the metadata has been confirmed, the photo of William was taken at 9:37am.

Sleep posted the link yesterday.

I can't read it because it's paywalled and it can't be quoted for the same reason. Can somebody who's read it please say on what authority DT is stating this?

 

[Akai]

Not necessarily someone who just happened to be passing by. There's the possibility that GO knew the family were there that morning and passed the information to FA. Perhaps FA used GO's car while GO was doing business in town, or perhaps FA approached Benaroon Drive on foot down the top-of-the-road track. In case he was on foot, I conjecture that William's remains were thrown into a wet ravine in Kendall Forest, perhaps encased in something to prevent the emanation of smell.

I'm less inclined to the purposeful theory - that someone went there with the intention of seeing if they could grab William. It's all very well if they were coming along the street at the time or even only had to wait a few minutes, but before they got there they had no way of knowing how long they would have to wait or even if they would ever get an opportunity. I struggle to see someone heading off to be willing to potentially park where they could be seen and spy on the house for what could have been hours for no certainty. And I don't think someone would be intending to sneak into the yard or house to grab him in broad daylight. So I do think if it was an abduction it was opportunistic, even if it was someone who could also fit a purpose theory.

But, like I said this case isn't clear for me at all, so with more information this might become a more viable possibility to me.

 

[Akai]

I definitely think that this is a probability.
Laura Beacroft whittled it down to 10:05-10:20am. A full 15 mins or so.
(Laura has very good credentials, and was chosen by the police to represent them at the inquest.)

Laidlaw thinks it is 5 mins or so IIRC ... from 10:10-10:15am.

Our perception of time is often off. I could name many instances of this, from my own life. Where I thought something just took 5 mins, but if I look at the clock, more time has passed than 5 mins.

https://www.news.com.au/national/co...e/news-story/219eb525eb0e76070785485909574131

Yes, absolutely people's perception of time is often off, and it's also something that FM, FGM and William's sister could all be in the same boat about.

FM and FGM may have been distracted together so their recollection is similar. I also don't imagine FGM challenging her daughter on something like this that she may have not been clear on herself.

William's sister was too young to have any clear idea of time. Kids can say anything from 5 minutes to 3 hours about something without even being remotely close to the actual amount of time.

 

[Akai]

I can't read it because it's paywalled and it can't be quoted for the same reason. Can somebody who's read it please say on what authority DT is stating this?

They just say it is confirmed. They don't provide an authority or source or any explanation of how this conclusion was reached. Up to you how you take that.

 

[JLZ]

Could there be a possible scenario where the MFC collided with William when he was reversing his vehicle and hurrying to drive for his conference call meeting. Hence he was unaware that the accident had occurred, and nobody saw it happen.

When FFC noticed that William was quiet, she went outside to check and found him badly injured (maybe by then not alive). She freaked out and immediately thought that in an investigation into his death, she would be blamed and her life ruined.
She took things into her own hands and decided to hide his body somewhere, and if he was found by LE, she would hope it would be blamed on an abductor…….indeed, she appears to have been forming her own abduction theory by telling LE later about seeing parked vehicles and a suspicious man locking eyes with her.

When MFC returned from his errands, he searched frantically, even though he didn’t believe that William had wandered off, and an abduction possibility didn’t make sense to him .
He then wondered if he may have hit William while reversing his vehicle earlier because he remembered a bit of a bump but took no notice.
He wondered, also if FFC was hiding something.

He decided that he would just go along with FFC’s story of events, because he considered that would be the ‘best’ way to handle things.

Just suggesting as a possible scenario.

On the face of it the time doesn't fit. MFC's departure time is very unclear but the latest that has been posited is that his phone left the house at 9:30; but William was photographed alive at 9:37.

 

[JLZ]

They just say it is confirmed. They don't provide an authority or source or any explanation of how this conclusion was reached. Up to you how you take that.

Thank you. I think I'll wait for the coroner or a police officer who'll put his or her name to the confirmation.

 

[JLZ]

I'm less inclined to the purposeful theory - that someone went there with the intention of seeing if they could grab William. It's all very well if they were coming along the street at the time or even only had to wait a few minutes, but before they got there they had no way of knowing how long they would have to wait or even if they would ever get an opportunity. I struggle to see someone heading off to be willing to potentially park where they could be seen and spy on the house for what could have been hours for no certainty. And I don't think someone would be intending to sneak into the yard or house to grab him in broad daylight. So I do think if it was an abduction it was opportunistic, even if it was someone who could also fit a purpose theory.

But, like I said this case isn't clear for me at all, so with more information this might become a more viable possibility to me.

I don't think such a person would have parked in the street, and I don't think abductions happen in that conspicuously pantomime sneak-and-grab style. I think it would have been very easy for someone of normal appearance to lure William away without being noticed. I'm a little bit doubtful whether FA specifically could have built that instant rapport.

 

[Awakening]

Could there be a possible scenario where the MFC collided with William when he was reversing his vehicle and hurrying to drive for his conference call meeting. Hence he was unaware that the accident had occurred, and nobody saw it happen.

When FFC noticed that William was quiet, she went outside to check and found him badly injured (maybe by then not alive). She freaked out and immediately thought that in an investigation into his death, she would be blamed and her life ruined.
She took things into her own hands and decided to hide his body somewhere, and if he was found by LE, she would hope it would be blamed on an abductor…….indeed, she appears to have been forming her own abduction theory by telling LE later about seeing parked vehicles and a suspicious man locking eyes with her.

When MFC returned from his errands, he searched frantically, even though he didn’t believe that William had wandered off, and an abduction possibility didn’t make sense to him .
He then wondered if he may have hit William while reversing his vehicle earlier because he remembered a bit of a bump but took no notice.
He wondered, also if FFC was hiding something.

He decided that he would just go along with FFC’s story of events, because he considered that would be the ‘best’ way to handle things.

Just suggesting as a possible scenario.

IMO, there's no way you'd accidentally hit a 3 yo and not notice.

In my lifetime I've hit 2 suicidal birds and really felt it.

Especially with having my own kids, if there was a "bump" I'd be out checking I hadn't hit a stray toy left out.

 

[Akai]

I don't think such a person would have parked in the street, and I don't think abductions happen in that conspicuously pantomime sneak-and-grab style. I think it would have been very easy for someone of normal appearance to lure William away without being noticed. I'm a little bit doubtful whether FA specifically could have built that instant rapport.

I think a lure scenario requires more time, but that does fit with the fact that I think the timeframe between when he went missing and when he was thought to be missing is likely to be more than 5 minutes. A lure also does away with some of the risk because if they are caught they say, "Oh well he thought he was lost and I was trying to help him."

While this is by no means my preferred theory, I do find some aspects of RD interesting. He's not just a convicted CSO and had the potential to be in the area but he was so weird sounding that I can see strange behaviour like hanging out in a suburban street and grabbing a kid in brazen circumstances actually fitting. Plus he hadn't been convicted or even, I think, charged with CSOs at the time so could have been more likely to be brazen. It's the weirdness that stands out to me, though.

I don't think we know if they ever found the work records, do we?

 

[Awakening]

I'm less inclined to the purposeful theory - that someone went there with the intention of seeing if they could grab William. It's all very well if they were coming along the street at the time or even only had to wait a few minutes, but before they got there they had no way of knowing how long they would have to wait or even if they would ever get an opportunity. I struggle to see someone heading off to be willing to potentially park where they could be seen and spy on the house for what could have been hours for no certainty. And I don't think someone would be intending to sneak into the yard or house to grab him in broad daylight. So I do think if it was an abduction it was opportunistic, even if it was someone who could also fit a purpose theory.

But, like I said this case isn't clear for me at all, so with more information this might become a more viable possibility to me.

Im liking your posts Akai because I feel the same.

Of course all scenarios seem possible but also unlikely. I think that's why there's such passion from members on here.

And the information from police is very limited.

The recent charges make me suspicious of the FP's, but I can't draw the conclusion guilty from that.

I also understand other members who have seen this played out with other POIs and that this could amount to another dead-end, which is possible too.

I really think until we learn about the nature of these charges it's hard for me to draw a conclusion either way.

 

[Awakening]

Did FGM have a licence at the time? Was she under any external restriction as to driving?

I was just thinking . . . I wonder if it was FGM who went for the drive, just looking for William, worried about Batar Creek Road, while FFC was still searching the house and close to home. And it wasn't legal for her to be driving. That's a hypothesis, don't ask me for a link. Then FFC got the idea that police knew about FGM driving and decided to say that it was she, FFC, who took the drive. This would explain the inconsistency in FFC's statements and the difficulty of fitting the drive into the tight timeline. Perhaps FFC later confessed to the lie in a document for the coroner, and that's why she wasn't grilled on the subject at the inquest.

I think this is a great theory. Thinking outside the box.

With the lying charges people have proposed that either they didn't lie and are innocent or they are guilty and lied about WT's death.

But it's also possible they lied about something that day but they are innocent of any involvement in WT's disappearance.

You've put forward a really good one. I wonder what other possibilities there are?

I've thought about them lying about the length of time he was missing for. That maybe the drive wasn't mentioned until later because they didn't want to admit to the length of time he was unsupervised (and I'm not having a go at FM, any parent who says they are perfect are delusional or lying IMO).

Whilst I believe I would be completely transparent there are many reasons why people lie to police:

• previous criminal history
• Fear or distrust of police
• Believe their lie helps police by steering them in the right direction
• To protect someone else
• To cover up a discovery of some other illegal activity ie drug use
• Narcissist who can't admit they made a mistake
• Not narcissistic but insecure and fear of being judged
• Fear the consequences of telling the truth

Not telling others how to post but interested if others have other possibilities of why they'd that doesn't necessarily mean they were involved in his disappearance.

 

[Awakening]

On the face of it the time doesn't fit. MFC's departure time is very unclear but the latest that has been posited is that his phone left the house at 9:30; but William was photographed alive at 9:37.

I can't look at the moment so will say IMO FF's car was seen on the tennis club CCTV around 9ish.

 

[SouthAussie]

I think a lure scenario requires more time, but that does fit with the fact that I think the timeframe between when he went missing and when he was thought to be missing is likely to be more than 5 minutes. A lure also does away with some of the risk because if they are caught they say, "Oh well he thought he was lost and I was trying to help him."

While this is by no means my preferred theory, I do find some aspects of RD interesting. He's not just a convicted CSO and had the potential to be in the area but he was so weird sounding that I can see strange behaviour like hanging out in a suburban street and grabbing a kid in brazen circumstances actually fitting. Plus he hadn't been convicted or even, I think, charged with CSOs at the time so could have been more likely to be brazen. It's the weirdness that stands out to me, though.

I don't think we know if they ever found the work records, do we?

Yes, they found some work records (NBN timesheets). But there was a bit of a kerfuffle about their authenticity.

We never heard the result of the work records from the Lakewood Caltex.


A former colleague of Robert Donohoe told the court on Friday that signatures and handwriting on a timesheet appeared to be his, but were not. The timesheets were submitted by Mr Donohoe in his job working on the NBN rollout at Taree the week the little boy disappeared.
Troy Brown was a supervisor on the NBN job, on which Mr Donohoe was employed as a contractor through a different company.
The inquest heard the Ts, Rs and Os on the signature were not Mr Brown's writing, and he was not in fact authorised to sign timesheets. "That's above my paygrade," he said.

Mr Donohoe refused to participate in a police interview following the disappearance of William Tyrrell.
William Tyrell inquest: Robert Donohoe refused to speak to police about toddler's disappearance

 

[JLZ]

I think a lure scenario requires more time, but that does fit with the fact that I think the timeframe between when he went missing and when he was thought to be missing is likely to be more than 5 minutes. A lure also does away with some of the risk because if they are caught they say, "Oh well he thought he was lost and I was trying to help him."

While this is by no means my preferred theory, I do find some aspects of RD interesting. He's not just a convicted CSO and had the potential to be in the area but he was so weird sounding that I can see strange behaviour like hanging out in a suburban street and grabbing a kid in brazen circumstances actually fitting. Plus he hadn't been convicted or even, I think, charged with CSOs at the time so could have been more likely to be brazen. It's the weirdness that stands out to me, though.

I don't think we know if they ever found the work records, do we?

RD was arrested four days after William's disappearance. https://www.news.com.au/national/ns...e/news-story/32619235ffce65ee57c86d159edf3e54 I have wondered if he knew it was coming and was having a last fling, so to speak.