Australia Australia - William Tyrrell, 3, Kendall, NSW, 12 Sep 2014 - #68

[JLZ]

I can't look at the moment so will say IMO FF's car was seen on the tennis club CCTV around 9ish.

Yes, a large range of times have been put out there. But whether he left at 8:40, 8:55 or 9:30, he didn't run down William when departing because William was alive at 9:37--unless the photograph metadata is wrong. Could he have had the accident upon his return to FGM's then? Discussed, planned and executed a successful cover-up in less than half an hour while FFC roused the street? Or could he have returned to the street twice; the first time when he had the accident and the second time after hiding William and creating an alibi getting a prescription, a paper and sending a text? But wouldn't the double movement show up on his phone?

 

[Awakening]

Yes, a large range of times have been put out there. But whether he left at 8:40, 8:55 or 9:30, he didn't run down William when departing because William was alive at 9:37--unless the photograph metadata is wrong. Could he have had the accident upon his return to FGM's then? Discussed, planned and executed a successful cover-up in less than half an hour while FFC roused the street? Or could he have returned to the street twice; the first time when he had the accident and the second time after hiding William and creating an alibi getting a prescription, a paper and sending a text? But wouldn't the double movement show up on his phone?

He could leave his phone behind a rock and return but then I would assume his car would have been picked up by the tennis club CCTV again. Unless there's another way to get to Benaroon that avoids cameras.

 

[Akai]

I think this is a great theory. Thinking outside the box.

With the lying charges people have proposed that either they didn't lie and are innocent or they are guilty and lied about WT's death.

But it's also possible they lied about something that day but they are innocent of any involvement in WT's disappearance.

You've put forward a really good one. I wonder what other possibilities there are?

I've thought about them lying about the length of time he was missing for. That maybe the drive wasn't mentioned until later because they didn't want to admit to the length of time he was unsupervised (and I'm not having a go at FM, any parent who says they are perfect are delusional or lying IMO).

Whilst I believe I would be completely transparent there are many reasons why people lie to police:

• previous criminal history
• Fear or distrust of police
• Believe their lie helps police by steering them in the right direction
• To protect someone else
• To cover up a discovery of some other illegal activity ie drug use
• Narcissist who can't admit they made a mistake
• Not narcissistic but insecure and fear of being judged
• Fear the consequences of telling the truth

Not telling others how to post but interested if others have other possibilities of why they'd that doesn't necessarily mean they were involved in his disappearance.

Thank you for your compliment on my other post. I like your posts, too, and think similarly.

I tend to believe that the alleged lie is about something related to the case but not the main issue (ie what happened to William). The photo was the most obvious one to me, and I'm reserving judgement until we know the details of the conclusion about the meta data. I suspect something about the movements and recollection of that morning, but I don't know how they would have evidence countering anything, at least not to the degree that is required to be more than "honest mistake". The timeframe, for example, I don't know how they'd actually prove that was a lie. I can hardly see them bringing charges if a car was red rather than green. The car driving theory is good because they may have data from the car itself.

It also has to be something that both of them are lying about because they have both been charged. I'm assuming for the time being that it's the same thing. If it isn't we are into completely different territory. So that means that it's either a lie they both participated in directly or a lie one of them told that the other knew was a lie (which is an arguable point and would no doubt be raised by that person's solicitor). I don't know how FF could know or be expected to know the timeframe when he wasn't there, but perhaps FM told him it was incorrect and discussed it at length?

I think it also has to be something that wasn't noticed until recently. Does that mean something from back then that was overlooked or something in the more recent history?

As for why, I think a clear motive to lie in this instance is believing that William's sister would be removed from their care. There's the usual "we'll be seen as suspects", of course (even when people are not guilty lots of people have a fear of being seen as a suspect, for good reason), but also the added concern here that fostering approval could be revoked. Which doesn't mean anything was done to William. There's also reputation, which impacts a lot of people, and is especially relevant in a matter with this level of scrutiny.

 

[mmindymoo]

RD was arrested four days after William's disappearance. https://www.news.com.au/national/ns...e/news-story/32619235ffce65ee57c86d159edf3e54 I have wondered if he knew it was coming and was having a last fling, so to speak.

Wow. This is disturbing. Looking at this strange creepy CSO offender this does sound like the most simple explanation. The refusal to speak to the police and also helping with the search, fits the profile.

 

[Akai]

Yes, they found some work records (NBN timesheets). But there was a bit of a kerfuffle about their authenticity.

We never heard the result of the work records from the Lakewood Caltex.


A former colleague of Robert Donohoe told the court on Friday that signatures and handwriting on a timesheet appeared to be his, but were not. The timesheets were submitted by Mr Donohoe in his job working on the NBN rollout at Taree the week the little boy disappeared.
Troy Brown was a supervisor on the NBN job, on which Mr Donohoe was employed as a contractor through a different company.
The inquest heard the Ts, Rs and Os on the signature were not Mr Brown's writing, and he was not in fact authorised to sign timesheets. "That's above my paygrade," he said.

Mr Donohoe refused to participate in a police interview following the disappearance of William Tyrrell.
William Tyrell inquest: Robert Donohoe refused to speak to police about toddler's disappearance

Thank you. I had forgotten about the NBN timesheets. I know the woman who testified about RD at the Caltex said they hadn't been able to locate the fingerprint sign in logs at the time, but never heard if they were subsequently located. RD not exactly helping his cause in all this.

 

[centred]

Yes, a large range of times have been put out there. But whether he left at 8:40, 8:55 or 9:30, he didn't run down William when departing because William was alive at 9:37--unless the photograph metadata is wrong. Could he have had the accident upon his return to FGM's then? Discussed, planned and executed a successful cover-up in less than half an hour while FFC roused the street? Or could he have returned to the street twice; the first time when he had the accident and the second time after hiding William and creating an alibi getting a prescription, a paper and sending a text? But wouldn't the double movement show up on his phone?

IMO if we are talking about accidental scenarios , I can think of only 2 at the minute and going on approx. timelines , ...William fell from the balcony OR he was waiting for MFC to return as sister "also" said and he jumped out from the bushes "daddy tigering " Daddy didn't see him from the height of new vehicle , in MFC run through he says while he was searching initially he noted FFC approach the neighbor to help in the distance , he also said at that stage he saw no one else searching prior , which makes sense because according to him his wife asked him if WT was with him first . All IMO ..

Was the bike damaged ? Has anything been said in regards to this as I found this story strange about the "on purpose " garden crash and the not wanting to climb trees after putting him in a tree ? All word salads IMO

 

[bearbear]

I've just done a Web search to see if PS put in a new pool after William disappeared but couldn't find anything. Pools are very expensive and PS was an elderly retiree. I wonder why he would want a pool?

he seemed to enjoy his daily long walks so maybe he also loved swimming and its a gentler form of exercise for older bodies, plus younger family members would enjoy it

 

[JLZ]

Wow. This is disturbing. Looking at this strange creepy CSO offender this does sound like the most simple explanation. The refusal to speak to the police and also helping with the search, fits the profile.

I don't know that RD is actually a CSO. The people he molested were mentally disabled young men. Then he was creepy with his customers who were teenage girls so that they stopped coming into the shop. For him to take a young child as victim would to some extent be a new kind of crime.

 

[JLZ]

He could leave his phone behind a rock and return but then I would assume his car would have been picked up by the tennis club CCTV again. Unless there's another way to get to Benaroon that avoids cameras.

No, he couldn't leave his phone behind a rock. He texted FFC at 10:30 to say he was nearly home. That means he's committed to the story that he has the phone in his possession, not only in central Kendall whence he texted but also in Lakewood where he'd established his presence at a pharmacy ten minutes before. If he didn't have his phone in Lakewood that would show up in pings, and it would be obvious that FFC had texted herself. Therefore he didn't leave his phone behind a rock at FGM's prior to making the second trip. And he had no reason to leave his phone behind a rock in Lakewood before the first return because the accident hadn't happened yet.

Note to casual readers, there is no evidence at all that MFC made two return trips between FGM's and Lakewood or anywhere else. Just the one.

 

[JLZ]

IMO if we are talking about accidental scenarios , I can think of only 2 at the minute and going on approx. timelines , ...William fell from the balcony OR he was waiting for MFC to return as sister "also" said and he jumped out from the bushes "daddy tigering " Daddy didn't see him from the height of new vehicle , in MFC run through he says while he was searching initially he noted FFC approach the neighbor to help in the distance , he also said at that stage he saw no one else searching prior , which makes sense because according to him his wife asked him if WT was with him first . All IMO ..

Was the bike damaged ? Has anything been said in regards to this as I found this story strange about the "on purpose " garden crash and the not wanting to climb trees after putting him in a tree ? All word salads IMO

<modsnip>

I don't find the bike crashing strange because I knew a dear little boy of William's age who used to do that. I do feel uncomfortable about the tree.

 

[Akai]

I don't know that RD is actually a CSO. The people he molested were mentally disabled young men. Then he was creepy with his customers who were teenage girls so that they stopped coming into the shop. For him to take a young child as victim would to some extent be a new kind of crime.

Yes, that stood out to me as well - that William would represent a completely different kind of victim for him. I don't know well enough to make any sort of judgement. I'm aware that sex offenders, particularly child sex offenders, have patterns and target particular ages & genders, but I don't know what the prevalence of exceptions or variations to it are.

But otherwise he looks good on paper.

CSO (he has been labelled that so I'll stick with it for simplicity purposes) who at the time was not known to be one, so had less reason to worry about being suspected of anything if he was caught, say, talking to William. Was charged almost immediately after William's disappearance with a host of offences, preying on vulnerable intellectually disabled people, and it was something he was actively engaged in doing around that time.

He volunteered for the SES from memory, and people are not going to be suspicious of an SES person being around anywhere. Also gives him reasons to be in the thick bush across from FGM house and would increase the likelihood of William trusting him. He used his position in the SES to groom and harm the young men and had gotten away with it for awhile, so he was familiar with deliberately using his position to prey on people and possibly had quite a bit of confidence around his ability to evade detection.

He was not just a nasty creep, he was weird. Weird behaviour could fit with a random snatching. But on the other hand it seems his other CSOs followed a particular pattern of ongoing manipulation.

He was known to sleep at the Showgrounds just near FGM house when he wasn't working at the Caltex.

He participated in the search afterward, yet refused a police interview. I'm loathe to judge people for asserting their rights in situations, but I do struggle with him wanting to help such that he searched yet not wanting to help by providing information. That doesn't seem consistent. On the other hand, he clearly had a whole lot of other stuff he was being/about to be busted for, so he had other completely unrelated reasons for not wanting to talk to police.

He doesn't have a clear alibi and, in fact, provided dodgy looking documentation to claim an alibi. Of course, if his work records were accurate, even if the version of them he provided wasn't accurate, that's likely the end of that matter, so he could be a total red herring.

 

[JLZ]

It also has to be something that both of them are lying about because they have both been charged. I'm assuming for the time being that it's the same thing. If it isn't we are into completely different territory. So that means that it's either a lie they both participated in directly or a lie one of them told that the other knew was a lie (which is an arguable point and would no doubt be raised by that person's solicitor). I don't know how FF could know or be expected to know the timeframe when he wasn't there, but perhaps FM told him it was incorrect and discussed it at length?

(snipped)
I see no reason to suppose they're accused of lying about the same thing. Perhaps because I have a bias to think that MFC at any rate did not lie and the crime commission went hunting for discrepancies or inaccuracies with which to charge them. I am also not sure each alleged lie was germane to William's disappearance. That was the subject of the interrogation, yes, but the individual questions and answers weren't necessarily so circumscribed.

 

[Awakening]

There were other children that lived in that street and other children that visited grandparents in the street.

The houses are not close together like suburbia and there's lots of large trees and dense bushland around.

So to me, it's possible someone could of been lurking in and around Benaroon Drive for days, weeks, months beforehand.

Either the person was able to evade detection through hiding in the foliage or the person looked like they belong there: neighbour, delivery person, council worker, tradie, internet, electricity, water guy etc.

And that it just so happened it was poor William that provided him with the opportunity that day but it could have been any child.

Similar to CS who was taken from her tent. Allegedly the offender in this case didn't stalk or follow her but had previously lurked around this campsite and for whatever reason on this particular night decided to take young CS who happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

It would fit the timeline. The abductor is lurking or working very close to FGM's house at the same time WT comes running out in the hope of spotting "Daddy".

Either he's forced into the car (wouldn't be hard to silence a 3 yo and not all kids scream in fear) or he felt safe enough with this person.

The abductor could have said "what are you doing out here by yourself young man"

"looking for daddy"

"well I know exactly where daddy is, come with me and I will take you to him"

Now if this abductor was in some sort of uniform, that could have made William feel safer.

IMO, William was fond of fire trucks. So anyone who looked like a fireman and/or had a vehicle that looked like a fire truck could have been attractive to him.

 

[Akai]

(snipped)
I see no reason to suppose they're accused of lying about the same thing. Perhaps because I have a bias to think that MFC at any rate did not lie and the crime commission went hunting for discrepancies or inaccuracies with which to charge them. I am also not sure each alleged lie was germane to William's disappearance. That was the subject of the interrogation, yes, but the individual questions and answers weren't necessarily so circumscribed.

I'm not sure they are accused of lying to the same degree about the same thing; I mean the same subject matter. I definitely agree that this could be something where FM has said something outright and FF's situation is more interpretable because perhaps he didn't have firsthand knowledge of the issue in question. Certainly the approach by FF's lawyer at this stage seems to support this being a case of minutiae.

And it could be different subject matters if for both of them it is about a collection of minor discrepancies.

What I meant is that the possibility of it being two outright lies about two different things I'm not really going to delve into because it's just too complicated. I couldn't possibly begin to guess at what the two are.

 

[Awakening]

Let's not point fingers about word salads.

I don't find the bike crashing strange because I knew a dear little boy of William's age who used to do that. I do feel uncomfortable about the tree.

Mum of boys here, and they would absolutely repeatedly crash into a garden bed

 

[Couldbe]

Mum of boys here, and they would absolutely repeatedly crash into a garden bed

<modsnip>
Little William would still have been learning how to control his bike, and maybe not up to being confident enough to crashing it. JMO

 

[Travelling Wilbury]

I have just noticed that the photo of William on his bike (William Tyrrell: Police dig up Kendall riding school site in search for missing boy | Daily Mail Online) is a NSW Police photograph, so they must have focussed on it.
As for the 'good working order', I imagine that the fact that William is supposed to have crashed into FFGM's garden on purpose (as stated by FFC) would surely have been examined by LE, because I wonder about this little boy doing that on purpose.....what would he derive from that?

One thing I find worthy of looking further into, and as far as I know not expanded on, was the FFFC said that William’s sister crashed into the garden bed but was uninjured, then William did it twice. But there was no comment as to whether he was injured after this- it just went straight to mentioning 2 cars on the street.
Can anyone expand on this?

 

[dragon52]

Well, probably because they have been named time and time again by trolls on SM, and initial sleuthing by WSers before it was known that William was a foster child. If you didn't know then, you probably weren't around in the beginning. IMO.

The general public do not know their names.

 

[JBowie]

<modsnip>
Little William would still have been learning how to control his bike, and maybe not up to being confident enough to crashing it. JMO

In the released video of him riding his bike, although on training wheels, he seems to be riding it confidently enough. Start at 0:20 here:

As for deliberately crashing it into something, the thing that comes to my mind is that he has been described as a pretty active kid and his foster grandmother described him as 'full of beans ... jumping out of his skin with energy' on the morning he went missing.

New owner of William Tyrrell's foster nan's home holed up inside with dog as search continues | Daily Mail Online

 

[SouthAussie]

One thing I find worthy of looking further into, and as far as I know not expanded on, was the FFFC said that William’s sister crashed into the garden bed but was uninjured, then William did it twice. But there was no comment as to whether he was injured after this- it just went straight to mentioning 2 cars on the street.
Can anyone expand on this?

Wasn't William riding his bike at 9am-ish? He doesn't look injured in the 9:37am photo. Looks happy and healthy to me.

imo

(Of course the answer to that is 'but was the photo really taken at 9:37am?' Yes, I think it was. I believe the DT found out that metadata result - as posted yesterday - <modsnip>)