Australia Australia - William Tyrrell, 3, Kendall, NSW, 12 Sep 2014 - #70

[SouthAussie]

I'm not convinced these are accurate, actually. They heard but apparently did not see the children. IMO, sounds can be funny, and there has been a lot of discussion about the way that different sounds works in this case (including in these threads), such as whether people could hear things from one side of the house to the other. It seems to me that they could have heard something or heard A child, and assumed after the fact, when they knew there were two children there, that they had heard both.

No ... I don't think that two independent witnesses who had both lived on the street for a long time, and who would be familiar with the sounds in their neighbourhood, would both be mistaken about this.

Independent witnesses - people, pings, CCTV, GPS - are the best verifiers in any case.

I think that whatever scenario took place, we need to include the sounds of the children playing sometime(s) between 9-9:30am.

imo

 

[SleepyJoe]

DAY WILLIAM VANISHES
Friday, 12 September, 2019, Benaroon Drive, Kendall:

7-7.30am: Foster mother wakes in room with William’s sister and hears William playing in the next room. She and the girl try to go back to sleep, but can’t.

8am: William and his sister wake up the foster grandmother.

William insists on wearing his SpiderMan suit from Bali, pulls out all his toys from the bedroom he has been sharing with the foster father and starts playing in the lounge room.

The foster father, foster grandmother and William’s sister are in front of the foster mother, while William is behind her.

The foster father gets frustrated with all the noise.

8.30am: Late breakfast of toast, eggs and Weet-Bix.

9.03am: Foster mother rings washing machine repairman for 38 seconds, the call going to messages.

The children play with the bikes kept at the property and race up the driveway, William deliberately crashing his into the garden.

Between 9am and 9.30am: Foster father leaves Benaroon Drive for Laurieton township to buy prescription drugs from pharmacy and conduct business call via Skype.

William and his sister draw pictures and roll dice on the verandah of the house, William rolling ‘the dice very hard” and “jumping out of his skin with energy”.

The foster mother photographs William for the last time. He is “roaring” in a tiger game on the verandah.

William gets bored and runs down from the verandah onto the grass.

It is now after 10am, probably between 10.10am and 10.30am.

https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/parenting/missing-boy-william-tyrrells-doomed-life/news-story/38baa59f1db54e441f01cc11a6af6eba

Now, as per the FGM walkthrough, we have a statement that the MFC left early, by approx 8am because he was so "keen" to get his medication. Just what is the truth? Were there 2 separate trips by the MFC?

 

[SleepyJoe]

Afaik, along the last meeting/visit with his bio mother little William wasn't allowed (by the FP) farther to name his bio mother "mummy". It seems to be a very inappropriate time to demand this from a 3 year old with some big issues, he had anyway. THAT would have confused him even more, poor boy. IMO

I think this is particularly cruel to get a 3yo to stop calling his biological mum "mummy". It would have been hurtful and confusing. Plenty of children have 2 people they call "mummy" - there is no reason that William couldn't have done so too. I wonder how LT had to manage this situation as she grew up and continued to live with the FPs while presumably also having access visits with the BM? All IMO.

 

[SLouTh]

Yes, also because she makes the comment about him leaving around 8am. If he was seen on CCTV at the tennis club around 8:40am (which has been discussed at length here already), given the location of the tennis club is only about 5 minutes away (again discussed at length), then what was he doing for the half hour or so between leaving and between appearing on the tennis club CCTV?

I think the CCTV footage at the Tennis Club was only able to capture vehicles heading towards Benaroon .... (i.e. returning vehicles ) So if FF allegedly left at 8:00am the return trip was captured at 8:40am...

Most recently, investigators zeroed in on CCTV footage from the local tennis club, which captured images of cars driving towards Benaroon Drive, where William went missing.

Police set up at the Kendall Tennis Club for the day last month with all CCTV images of cars from the morning William went missing, urging all drivers to come forward and identify their vehicles.
William Tyrell’s disappearance from Kendall now a homicide investigation | Daily Telegraph
imo

Edit to add I don't think we have ever been told if FF Car was captured on the same CCTV at approx 10:30am

 

[k-mac]

Now, as per the FGM walkthrough, we have a statement that the MFC left early, by approx 8am because he was so "keen" to get his medication. Just what is the truth? Were there 2 separate trips by the MFC?

A lot of room for justifiable speculation here.

Grandmas's slip about 3 of them for brekkie is a tell.

moo

 

[k-mac]

I think this is particularly cruel to get a 3yo to stop calling his biological mum "mummy". It would have been hurtful and confusing. Plenty of children have 2 people they call "mummy" - there is no reason that William couldn't have done so too. I wonder how LT had to manage this situation as she grew up and continued to live with the FPs while presumably also having access visits with the BM? All IMO.

IMO whats going on now with her...is very reveiling on what her past has endured.
And it makes no sense what so ever that FFC wouldnt have the same projection about the daughter and the bio's,as William.

 

[SLouTh]

I think that whatever scenario took place, we need to include the sounds of the children playing sometime(s) between 9-9:30am

Is it possible the neighbors heard kids on a TV playing? A children's program often has kids playing and TV sound would travel in a quiet environment ....
This is just something I have wondered about .... as an explanation for those reports.....
IMO

 

[Miss Paddington]

I'm not an expert at body language, but I immediately picked up her obvious anxiety. Her hands flutter all over the place, she wrings her hands, she plays with her pants, her vocal pitch is raised. As to what all that anxiety indicates, I don't know. And her description of William "bouncing out of his skull" is very odd. Was that perhaps a Freudian slip?!

And also i Would have expected the FGM to get choked up as she recalled the last time she visually saw William as he ran around the corner (never to be seen again)
Its called Sense Memory.

 

[Akai]

I think the CCTV footage at the Tennis Club was only able to capture vehicles heading towards Benaroon .... (i.e. returning vehicles ) So if FF allegedly left at 8:00am the return trip was captured at 8:40am...

Most recently, investigators zeroed in on CCTV footage from the local tennis club, which captured images of cars driving towards Benaroon Drive, where William went missing.

Police set up at the Kendall Tennis Club for the day last month with all CCTV images of cars from the morning William went missing, urging all drivers to come forward and identify their vehicles.
William Tyrell’s disappearance from Kendall now a homicide investigation | Daily Telegraph
imo

Edit to add I don't think we have ever been told if FF Car was captured on the same CCTV at approx 10:30am

Good pick up! If this is the case then IMO that is a seriously botched police investigation, because I have heard nothing about the FF making two trips where one was at 8am with a return prior to 9am and then another trip out to conduct the meeting at Lakewood. (There has been discussion about him potentially having a second trip at 9:30am with the media reporting that mobile phone records show him leaving the house at 9:30am, but nothing that I can recall canvasses him having an earlier trip. https://www.news.com.au/national/ns...d/news-story/6983c0a44392f8599514e4b5c8a56f04) Everything I have heard and recall links the trip with vision of him going past the tennis club at 8:40am to his meeting. And every interview and report I have heard or read from the FPs has him making that single trip to the meeting.

I wonder if this is the false & misleading evidence? That police can demonstrate he left the house around 8am then returned and left about 9am again for his meeting?

 

[SleepyJoe]

I think the CCTV footage at the Tennis Club was only able to capture vehicles heading towards Benaroon .... (i.e. returning vehicles ) So if FF allegedly left at 8:00am the return trip was captured at 8:40am...

Most recently, investigators zeroed in on CCTV footage from the local tennis club, which captured images of cars driving towards Benaroon Drive, where William went missing.

Police set up at the Kendall Tennis Club for the day last month with all CCTV images of cars from the morning William went missing, urging all drivers to come forward and identify their vehicles.
William Tyrell’s disappearance from Kendall now a homicide investigation | Daily Telegraph
imo

Edit to add I don't think we have ever been told if FF Car was captured on the same CCTV at approx 10:30am

This is great info Slouth, thanks. This lends credence to a theory that perhaps there were 2 trips - and the CCTV caught the FCs vehicle heading BACK to Benaroon Drive after the MFC allegedly left before 8am as per FGM.

 

[SleepyJoe]

Good pick up! If this is the case then IMO that is a seriously botched police investigation, because I have heard nothing about the FF making two trips where one was at 8am with a return prior to 9am and then another trip out to conduct the meeting at Lakewood. (There has been discussion about him potentially having a second trip at 9:30am with the media reporting that mobile phone records show him leaving the house at 9:30am, but nothing that I can recall canvasses him having an earlier trip. https://www.news.com.au/national/ns...d/news-story/6983c0a44392f8599514e4b5c8a56f04) Everything I have heard and recall links the trip with vision of him going past the tennis club at 8:40am to his meeting. And every interview and report I have heard or read from the FPs has him making that single trip to the meeting.

I wonder if this is the false & misleading evidence? That police can demonstrate he left the house around 8am then returned and left about 9am again for his meeting?

I agree that this is highly suspicious and may possibly be the lies that were told to the NSWCC! We will have to watch this space!

 

[JLZ]

Is it possible the neighbors heard kids on a TV playing? A children's program often has kids playing and TV sound would travel in a quiet environment ....
This is just something I have wondered about .... as an explanation for those reports.....
IMO

I think MFC left at about 8:40 and William and FFC started playing in the yard before 9, which is what Mrs W heard before she drove out at 9 (she said). Shortly afterwards FFC played in the yard with both children, and I'd suggest that that was what PS heard between 9 and 9:30 (but closer to 9). I would be readier to think that Mrs W was untruthful about the time she left home than that she heard FGM's TV and mistook it for children playing. I don't remember whether the TV was even on; I believe the kids watched some shows briefly on MFC's portable device in bed, which I definitely don't think Mrs W heard, and besides that was very early.

Another thing: I think, contrary to all the timelines, that FFC was awake before 7 and that she changed William's nappy.

MOO.

 

[Akai]

I agree that this is highly suspicious and may possibly be the lies that were told to the NSWCC! We will have to watch this space!

I also keep having to remind myself that the FF has been charged with two counts of providing false & misleading evidence. William Tyrrell foster parents in court on child stalk assault charges

 

[LIBPOP]

I

Good pick up! If this is the case then IMO that is a seriously botched police investigation, because I have heard nothing about the FF making two trips where one was at 8am with a return prior to 9am and then another trip out to conduct the meeting at Lakewood. (There has been discussion about him potentially having a second trip at 9:30am with the media reporting that mobile phone records show him leaving the house at 9:30am, but nothing that I can recall canvasses him having an earlier trip. https://www.news.com.au/national/ns...d/news-story/6983c0a44392f8599514e4b5c8a56f04) Everything I have heard and recall links the trip with vision of him going past the tennis club at 8:40am to his meeting. And every interview and report I have heard or read from the FPs has him making that single trip to the meeting.

I wonder if this is the false & misleading evidence? That police can demonstrate he left the house around 8am then returned and left about 9am again for his meeting?

Also according to the video in the DM article with the FGM walk through the MFC was keen to get his prescription filled, hence the early departure at 8am, (Bombshell documents lift lid on William Tyrrell mystery) but the local chemist in Lakewood opens at 9am (8.30am in Laurieton which seems to be referred to sometimes), and we’re advised he wasn’t at the chemist until 10.19am (Tyrrell's foster father searched everywhere).

 

[SLouTh]

Independent witnesses - people, pings, CCTV, GPS - are the best verifiers in any case.

What do you make of the allegedly new 9:30am mobile phone info???

Caroline Overington wrote this 19 November 2021.....referring to the Police.....

Why didn’t they (the Police)put up police tape? Why didn’t they check every car, look under every tarp, peek into every roof cavity? Why didn’t they collect all the rubbish in the street and DNA-test it? Download data from the mobile phone towers? Why did they let so many people come and go without checking their bona fides?

https://www.theaustralian.com.au/nation/william-tyrrell-behind-the-silence-lies-so-much-pain-and-so-many-questions/news-story/3001b90fce451c00e6114a76389f53c8

It is almost inconceivable to think that a download was not done in the early days of the investigation??
IMO

 

[Akai]

I

Also according to the video in the DM article with the FGM walk through the MFC was keen to get his prescription filled, hence the early departure at 8am, (Bombshell documents lift lid on William Tyrrell mystery) but the local chemist in Lakewood opens at 9am (8.30am in Laurieton which seems to be referred to sometimes), and we’re advised he wasn’t at the chemist until 10.19am (Tyrrell's foster father searched everywhere).

Yes. This also reminds me of something else.

So as per the DM article released yesterday, the FF was up at 5:50am and, as you note, he was keen to get to the pharmacy early to fill this script. So, given these two pieces of information, why would he be filling that script after his meeting? If the pharmacy opened at 9am in Lakewood and he was willing to leave for an 8am opening, why wouldn't he have left at, say, 8:30am, giving him time to fill the script before his meeting, if he was just at home all morning? It seems to me that it's possible that the reason he couldn't get to the Lakewood Pharmacy when it opened at 9am is because he went out and did a different trip, beginning at around 8am, that required him to return to the house before going out again (for example, because he did not take his meeting gear or because he needed to have a discussion with someone at the house directly), putting him behind schedule and without enough time to go to that Lakewood pharmacy when it opened before his meeting.

 

[Awakening]

I'm not convinced these are accurate, actually. They heard but apparently did not see the children. IMO, sounds can be funny, and there has been a lot of discussion about the way that different sounds works in this case (including in these threads), such as whether people could hear things from one side of the house to the other. It seems to me that they could have heard something or heard A child, and assumed after the fact, when they knew there were two children there, that they had heard both.

I agree. From being obsessed with true crime for decades now, I've learnt not to put much weight on witness statements.

I don't dismiss them entirely and these witnesses could well be correct. But unless they had direct interaction with the children I don't think it's reliable.

A recent example I can give is from only last week.

My neighbour is a personal trainer. We've both lived in this street for over 10 years. I was training with her in her garage and we both heard a baby crying somewhere in the street. Her house is at the end of the culdesac. I thought it was coming from down the street. She was concerned it was her own baby from inside her house.

Eventually we worked out it wasn't a baby crying but part of the music we had playing in the background.

If she didn't have a baby of her own, we wouldn't have been interested in determining where the cry was coming from.

If it later turned out that a baby had gone missing that day or a baby had been killed or someone in our street was suspected of taking a baby, I'm sure both of us would have been absolutely adamant we heard a baby crying.

 

[JLZ]

Yes. This also reminds me of something else.

So as per the DM article released yesterday, the FF was up at 5:50am and, as you note, he was keen to get to the pharmacy early to fill this script. So, given these two pieces of information, why would he be filling that script after his meeting? If the pharmacy opened at 9am in Lakewood and he was willing to leave for an 8am opening, why wouldn't he have left at, say, 8:30am, giving him time to fill the script before his meeting, if he was just at home all morning? It seems to me that it's possible that the reason he couldn't get to the Lakewood Pharmacy when it opened at 9am is because he went out and did a different trip, beginning at around 8am, that required him to return to the house before going out again (for example, because he did not take his meeting gear or because he needed to have a discussion with someone at the house directly), putting him behind schedule and without enough time to go to that Lakewood pharmacy when it opened before his meeting.

I think you are putting too much weight on FGM's recollections. IMO she is not reliable, either because she has memory problems perhaps somewhat complicated by 'coaching' or because she's purposely obfuscating.

 

[Green beans]

I remember it being reported somewhere that FF was showing his new car to FGM the morning sep 12th - and William was sitting in the car, and that apparently William also loved this new car. That fm said she may have been in the shower at this time. IMO does this ring a bell for anyone else

 

[Akai]

I think you are putting too much weight on FGM's recollections. IMO she is not reliable, either because she has memory problems perhaps somewhat complicated by 'coaching' or because she's purposely obfuscating.

I actually come up with the same perception of this even if I don't put too much weight on him being keen to get to the pharmacy.

If he merely asked what time the pharmacy opened I would still question why he didn't go before his meeting. Because if his plan was to go after his meeting then it was late enough that IMO opening time didn't matter. I would usually ask what time something opens if I'm hoping to fit it in before something else, but that's not of great significance.

And if this conversation never occurred, I still have the primary issue, which is that he was up at 5:50am. Why didn't he have time to get his script before his meeting?

I do think he at least asked what time the pharmacy opened.