Australia Australia - William Tyrrell, 3, Kendall, NSW, 12 Sep 2014 - #72

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I also wonder what evidence the Magistrate has seen and I'm wondering what the three other aggravating factors are? bbm

The magistrate questioned today whether there is a "strong prosecution case".

"I don't know whether there is a particularly strong prosecution case," the magistrate said.

"These exchanges often occur between parents and children in a family setting."

Mr Feather said the fact the alleged offences had occurred in front of another child and three other aggravating factors made them more serious.

Yes … statements need to considered in “context” …. Rather than just one line that can be misconstrued … imo
 

Mr Feather said there were considerable aggravating features involved in the alleged offending, however he conceded it was not a “strong prosecution case”.

Wonder what evidence the magistrate has seen to say the above?
I also wonder what evidence he has seen and what are the three other aggravating factors? It sounds to me like he was minimizing the assault as something that happens in everyday families. bbm.

Mr Feather said the fact the alleged offences had occurred in front of another child and three other aggravating factors made them more serious.


The magistrate questioned today whether there is a "strong prosecution case".

"I don't know whether there is a particularly strong prosecution case," the magistrate said.

"These exchanges often occur between parents and children in a family setting."

 
If the female caregiver is responsible, then I think she was perfectly capable of manipulating the other two people that day. I get the impression that, after a significant amount of time (not 5 but maybe 25 minutes or more), the foster grandma realized that neither Wm nor the female caregiver had returned so she went in search of -- not into the house but around the corner, the direction both Wm and the FC had gone. When she didn't find them, I think she alerted the neighbor and was genuinely confused for how two people could vanish. I don't know exactly when or how the FC arrived back home without being noticed but I think she likely convinced the foster grandma that mere minutes had elapsed and that she'd been searching outside/nearby and that they should together go inside to search, where she then doubled down, calling LE saying Wm had only been gone briefly and the only delay was minor, the time it took her to "search the block" and then the house, IMO completely erasing her drive time from both her timeline and the foster grandma's awareness -- as in, remember how we are on the patio, then Wm went around the corner with a growl and then I went to look for him and just a few minutes later you and I went inside to search for him?

How much easier to manipulate the story with a young child, the FD. As in, you were drawing, Wm roared, we starting looking for him within minutes.

I would like to have asked her, Big Sister, you were coloring. How many pictures did you draw from when Wm left the patio until everyone was worried he was lost?

She might not have been any better at quantifying the passage of time than the foster grandma, but I can imagine she might've had a fair sense of how many drawings she knocked out during that gap!

My point, should it be lost in my paragraphs, I think the female caregiver was successful -‐ at least for a very long time -- convincing young foster daughter and old foster grandma -- that ten minutes elapsed when closer to 30 or more did!

And I don't think she would have told anybody about the lil drive she took, except that the truck driver engaged her in such a way she had to cop to it.

How familiar was she to the area? Didn't know cross streets. Did she know landmarks? Did she pick a random one of which she was marginally aware, to pretend that's what she was driving to? Only she didn't? Did she pull off the side of the road, go deep into the bush (scratches, cuts?), and was just getting into her car when the truck driver came 'round the bend? And she volunteered (presplained), oh me, I was just stopped here to lean out the window and call for him. Nope, nothing to see here. I wasn't outside my car at all. Just me, in the car, calling out.

Suss.

FWIW I still maintain that there's a fair chance that wherever Wm may have been placed on that dreadful day, it's not where he stayed.

JMO
 
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I also wonder what evidence the Magistrate has seen and I'm wondering what the three other aggravating factors are? bbm

The magistrate questioned today whether there is a "strong prosecution case".

"I don't know whether there is a particularly strong prosecution case," the magistrate said.

"These exchanges often occur between parents and children in a family setting."

Mr Feather said the fact the alleged offences had occurred in front of another child and three other aggravating factors made them more serious.


There is a list of aggravating factors in this link.

I can see a few right away that could apply.

the offence was committed in the home of the victim or any other person,
the offender abused a position of trust or authority in relation to the victim,
the victim was vulnerable, for example, because the victim was very young .....
 
I suspect that the police know that the Prosecution's case is not strong. And that is why the charge of giving false or misleading evidence (about the alleged assault) to the Crime Commission was needed. To try to strengthen the alleged assault case.

imo
It's interesting that the Magistrate has made the comments about the prosecution case lacking strength, despite the listening device evidence. I suppose there can be some ambiguity in audio only recordings.

I wonder if there will be questions around why charging the FPs was delayed and why the children were left in a potentially unsafe home environment for months (if I have it correct that the alleged assault occurred months before the children were removed).
 
There is a list of aggravating factors in this link.

I can see a few right away that could apply.

the offence was committed in the home of the victim or any other person,
the offender abused a position of trust or authority in relation to the victim,
the victim was vulnerable, for example, because the victim was very young .....
I thought I had seen a few of those aggravating factors in the news....... AND this article states it was a "strong prosecution case"........

The article by AAP has been shared on a multitude of news sites, I counted 20 sites and then gave up counting.

"The magistrate said it was a strong prosecution case with several aggravating factors including that one incident occurred in front of another child, and that SD was in a position of trust and authority given she was family."

Tyrrell foster mum loses mental health bid
 
If the female caregiver is responsible, then I think she was perfectly capable of manipulating the other two people that day. I get the impression that, after a significant amount of time (not 5 but maybe 25 minutes or more), the foster grandma realized that neither Wm nor the female caregiver had returned so she went in search of -- not into the house but around the corner, the direction both Wm and the FC had gone. When she didn't find them, I think she alerted the neighbor and was genuinely confused for how two people could vanish. I don't know exactly when or how the FC arrived back home without being noticed but I think she likely convinced the foster grandma that mere minutes had elapsed and that she'd been searching outside/nearby and that they should together go inside to search, where she then doubled down, calling LE saying Wm had only been gone briefly and the only delay was minor, the time it took her to "search the block" and then the house, IMO completely erasing her drive time from both her timeline and the foster grandma's awareness -- as in, remember how we are on the patio, then Wm went around the corner with a growl and then I went to look for him and just a few minutes later you and I went inside to search for him?

How much easier to manipulate the story with a young child, the FD. As in, you were drawing, Wm roared, we starting looking for him within minutes.

I would like to have asked her, Big Sister, you were coloring. How many pictures did you draw from when Wm left the patio until everyone was worried he was lost?

She might not have been any better at quantifying the passage of time than the foster grandma, but I can imagine she might've had a fair sense of how many drawings she knocked out during that gap!

My point, should it be lost in my paragraphs, I think the female caregiver was successful -‐ at least for a very long time -- convincing young foster daughter and old foster grandma -- that ten minutes elapsed when closer to 30 or more did!

And I don't think she would have told anybody about the lil drive she took, except that the truck driver engaged her in such a way she had to cop to it.

How familiar was she to the area? Didn't know cross streets. Did she know landmarks? Did she pick a random one of which she was marginally aware, to pretend that's what she was driving to? Only she didn't? Did she pull off the side of the road, go deep into the bush (scratches, cuts?), and was just getting into her car when the truck driver came 'round the bend? And she volunteered (presplained), oh me, I was just stopped her to lean out the window and call for him. Nope, nothing to see here. I wasn't outside my car at all. Just me, in the car, calling out.

Suss.

FWIW I still maintain that there's a fair chance that wherever Wm may have been placed on that dreadful day, it's not where he stayed.

JMO
Megnut what a great scenario and well thought out. I think your dead on with your thinking. Hopefully le is as smart as you are. The number of pages of the coloring book would have been a great way for le to gage time. Nice job
 
I thought I had seen a few of those aggravating factors in the news....... AND this article states it was a "strong prosecution case"........

The article by AAP has been shared on a multitude of news sites, I counted 20 sites and then gave up counting.

"The magistrate said it was a strong prosecution case with several aggravating factors including that one incident occurred in front of another child, and that SD was in a position of trust and authority given she was family."

Tyrrell foster mum loses mental health bid

The difference being that AAP has reported their opinion, whereas news.com has directly quoted the magistrate.

Perhaps AAP missed the word 'not'?
 
JMO - Maybe the Prosecution are not 'showing their hand' completely at this stage, but all will be revealed when the Hearing of the Alleged Assault cases takes place on 16 January 2023.

Yes if they are smart, they would be imo

I fully agree Couldbe. The prosecution would have to hold most of their information, as the FMFC is involved in the charges as well, and they are to face the charges together in January.

I don't think that the prosecution gets to pick & choose what evidence they present . That's not how it works ....

The defence has a right to disclosure by the prosecution.

I don't have the time to provide a link so I'll just add IMO
 
The difference being that AAP has reported their opinion, whereas news.com has directly quoted the magistrate.

Perhaps AAP missed the word 'not'?
On looking at the article you mention, the quotation marks in the news.com article only embrace the words "strong prosecution case". They do not include the word not.

"Mr Feather said there were considerable aggravating features involved in the alleged offending, however he conceded it was not a “strong prosecution case”."


 
I don't think that the prosecution gets to pick & choose what evidence they present . That's not how it works ....

The defence has a right to disclosure by the prosecution.

I don't have the time to provide a link so I'll just add IMO
JMO - you are partly right ..... a timeframe for disclosure of their evidence to be presented during the Hearing applies.
 
And this article says “parts“ of the case were not particularly strong …

This type of exchange between parents and children often occur in the family setting,” magistrate Peter Feather said, calling parts of the police prosecution case “not particularly strong“.




Were any of us actually there to hear the exact words?

Once again, we appear to have a case of conflicting information from media reports about this case ….
imo
 
I definitely get there are multiple theories, and no actual evidence that we, the public, know of.

Imo I think the allegations of the FP‘s lying and the assault of a child in their care might lead some people to see the FFC and The MFC have the capacity to be involved in some way.

I am not saying they are involved, but as you stated there is a lack of evidence. So the evidence we are presented is all we can go off. While they are only allegations at this stage, if proven to be correct and they’re found guilty of these allegations, then the evidence will state the foster parents of William are people Capable of lying to a crime commission, as well as child abusers. So how can we be sure they haven’t lied about other things involved in this case, and how can we know that the alleged abusive behaviour hasn’t happened before? Imo, moo
SOME, of the other potential suspects have been charged and convicted with sexual abuse of children so they also would fit the 'capacity' of having been involved in some way.
 
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On looking at the article you mention, the quotation marks in the news.com article only embrace the words "strong prosecution case". They do not include the word not.

"Mr Feather said there were considerable aggravating features involved in the alleged offending, however he conceded it was not a “strong prosecution case”."



This is the article I am referring to, with the direct quote.



The magistrate questioned today whether there is a "strong prosecution case".

"I don't know whether there is a particularly strong prosecution case," the magistrate said.

"These exchanges often occur between parents and children in a family setting."

(Sourced from 9news.com.au)
 
It just isn't true--that whatever isn't impossible must have been the case. That's an extremely deterministic worldview which is not supported by physics, psychology or religion.
Well I can tell you that children don't just disappear off the face of the earth, whether I understand philosophy properly or not. Someone did something, and hid what they did.
 
The difference being that AAP has reported their opinion, whereas news.com has directly quoted the magistrate.

Perhaps AAP missed the word 'not'?
Quite similar to when you referenced not long ago how the DM used the phrase “up to 15 mins” in regards to the alleged tirade of verbal abuse.

Whereas the original article by The Australian, who broke that story never used the words “up to”. They clearly stated “a 15 min“.

Sometimes a few words make a difference imo
 
This is the article I am referring to, with the direct quote.



The magistrate questioned today whether there is a "strong prosecution case".

"I don't know whether there is a particularly strong prosecution case," the magistrate said.

"These exchanges often occur between parents and children in a family setting."

(Sourced from 9news.com.au)
Yes, I think we have worked out it all depends on what the Journalist wishes to put in quotation marks. We have a few conflicting quotes.

Another example of different views provided by the Journalist.....

"The court heard that the foster mother at one point called a friend and allegedly said 'I need to break her', with police having a strong case for the charges because of audio surveillance in the home at the time."

 
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Quite similar to when you referenced not long ago how the DM used the phrase “up to 15 mins” in regards to the alleged tirade of verbal abuse.

Whereas the original article by The Australian, who broke that story never used the words “up to”. They clearly stated “a 15 min“.

Sometimes a few words make a difference imo

Were either of those direct quotes from an official? I can't remember.

Direct quotes tend to be more accurate, when reporting on things that were said by an official. imo
 
The other potential suspects have been charged and convicted with sexual abuse of children so they also would fit the 'capacity' of having been involved in some way.
I agree with this statement. That’s why I personally can’t eliminate some of the others who have been mentioned and even the possibility that it was someone we know nothing about.
 
The other potential suspects have been charged and convicted with sexual abuse of children so they also would fit the 'capacity' of having been involved in some way.
I don’t think this is quite accurate Katie… I think the only POI’s that fit what you have stated is FA and TJ and PB …

I can’t recall other POI’s in the case as being convicted CSO’s ???
RD doesn’t even fit that criteria as his abuse was of adults with an intellectual impairment ….

JMO and happy to be incorrect on this if you can supply links for all the POI’s in this case being convicted CSO’s ….
 
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