Australia Australia - William Tyrrell, 3, Kendall, NSW, 12 Sep 2014 - #72

[FromGermany1]

Children can walk away

They can get fair distances too. I’m struggling with why did fm go for a drive but not tell FGM she was leaving sister with her

I don't remember, if FFC was the one, who said, the 2 strange cars were perhaps there for abducting both little W and his sister. IF it was indeed FFC, then why didn't she make sure, that L was strictly guarded by FGM (preferably IN the home, doors closed) immediately after little W's disappearing? Being 2 foster children, even stemming from the same bio family, both planned to be adopted by the fosters in the near future, it is doubtful, why FFC would only have fears re the little boy (and in addition the "problem kid"). IMO MOO

 

[Mauig’ma]

I don't remember, if FFC was the one, who said, the 2 strange cars were perhaps there for abducting both little W and his sister. IF it was indeed FFC, then why didn't she make sure, that L was strictly guarded by FGM (preferably IN the home, doors closed) immediately after little W's disappearing? Being 2 foster children, even stemming from the same bio family, both planned to be adopted by the fosters in the near future, it is doubtful, why FFC would only have fears re the little boy (and in addition the "problem kid"). IMO MOO

I think the ffc needed to make a quick get a way without fgm knowing. Fgm was sitting on the patio drinking tea watching William’s sister color. We could see Lindsey was pretty content by the picture. I’m sure she didn’t even notice both ffc and William were gone until more time passed. Then fgm realized they weren’t around & wondered where they were. So that’s when she started looking for them. A car ride to & from wouldn’t have taken long. Imo the death of the fgm was brought on my the stress of not knowing what really happened. Stress can literally kill a person. Remember she was told what happened. And only by her daughter the ffc. I don’t believe she was part of any of it. Accident or deliberately. I think all her theories and own suspicions stressed her out to the end. She wanted to believe her daughter. Imo she knew more than she ended up telling everyone. What was the cause of fgm death? I’d love to know. Has anything been noted anywhere on msn? Do we know? I’d love to know Imo moo

 

[Megnut]

I don't want the female caregiver involved. I don't want a pedophile involved. I don't want Wm lost and deceased. Frankly, if I could, I'd wish scampered after a joey and is alive and well, living in the bush with a kangaroo family...

But statistics say....

Who saw him last?

This just occurred to me:

If this part of the story is at least generally true and correctly ordered, Wm ran around the side of the house, the female caregiver noticed it was too quiet, and then she went around the corner as well, we've got a problem.

If Wm wasn't in the side yard, she'd go around to the front, yes? Then the far side, then all the way around. If she didn't complete that loop, IMO it's because she did find Wm. (Otherwise she'd have gone all the way around, to seee if he'd returned to where he started!!!!!)

She had to have found him.

I wish we coulid ask the foster grandma to nail down the timeline. Did the female caregiver sit down on the deck twice? Where exactly did the foster grandma encounter the female caregiver after she couldn't find them (the FC and Wm)?

I don't think the foster grandma was fuzzy on details. I think she was trying to make sense of fuzzy details.

The confusion was warranted.

JMO

 

[JLZ]

If Wm wasn't in the side yard, she'd go around to the front, yes? Then the far side, then all the way around. If she didn't complete that loop, IMO it's because she did find Wm. (Otherwise she'd have gone all the way around, to seee if he'd returned to where he started!!!!!)

Yes. I don't believe FFC crossed to AMS without first circling the house. Yet that is FGM's story.

I don't think the foster grandma was fuzzy on details. I think she was trying to make sense of fuzzy details.

I think that by the time of the walkthrough FGM had been over it in her mind and clarified some of the fuzziness for herself. But in some things her clarifications were wrong. I remember an occasion I was having an argument with someone about the complicated end of a football match I'd attended. I'd thought it over for myself, I was brilliantly unfuzzy, and I really remembered it that way--but I was wrong, I'd oversimplified, and the person I'd spent ten minutes contradicting knew what he was talking about and I didn't. The clarity of a recollection does not guarantee its accuracy, particularly after putting one's thoughts in order.

 

[nightrider17]

What you say "Megnut" makes so much sense.

If the FFC ran in the direction she last saw W and couldn't see him. She would have even have view of the street coming down the steep hill, even if it was cursory.

It would make sense to go the full perimeter of the property as a first option - so you would then be heading back up.

That would tie in with her asking the Grandmother if he was there, because you might think you are travelling a bit behind him and he may have had a chance to return back to the patio.

Possibly this is when she takes the FFGM's car out. MOO

 

[Couldbe]

Along with other feasible scenarios, just putting this one out there:

Presuming the timeline is correct (LE have said could have occurred as early as 10.10 am / FFC thinks it was about 10.25 am), then looking at that scenario:

When William first jumped off and ran around the side while roaring (out of their sight), FFC would have probably expected him to return to them on the back deck;

…. Otherwise she would have immediately gone and brought him back (not waited for 5 minutes, or more) ;

…. It might be the case, that he would NOT be making a noise and roaring the whole time;

…. So in my opinion, the reason for FFC going to look for him was that William hadn’t returned to where they were sitting drinking tea on the back deck.


However maybe that timeline isn’t correct, and William had disappeared earlier …. Following the photos showing creation time 9.37 am:

…. At that time, when FFGM, FFC and the children were there, it was at this possible earlier time that William jumped off and ran around the side (as described by FFGM, but it was earlier than she seemed to remember. She may have been following the time estimate suggested by FFC.

…. Just suppose it was at some time between say 9.45 am and 10.10 am that FFC had found William’s lifeless body, and she had then cradled him in her arms and placed him initially, somewhere in the vicinity (maybe where neighbours were away);

…. At some time noticing that her clothing was stained from William’s blood/body fluid, and realising FFGM would wonder if she saw FFC’s clothing soaking in laundry, figured that she would drive the Mazda down Batar Creek Road and dispose of her stained clothing. (Of course, FFGM wouldn’t necessarily notice her in a different top);

…. FFC may have then phoned MFC (to tell him the details), and for him to return and remove William’s body, and he complied with that.

…. Following that, FFC then returned to kitchen, made more tea and joined FFGM on the back deck at around 10.25 am.

…. It was then at 10.30 am, that FFC began her searching.....involving others.

MOO

 

[JLZ]

…. FFC may have then phoned MFC (to tell him the details), and for him to return and remove William’s body, and he complied with that.

I don't think she could have called him. Police would have been on to the phone records straight away.

 

[Couldbe]

I don't think she could have called him. Police would have been on to the phone records straight away.

JMO - Could it have been possible that MFC was at FFGM's house at the time, so FFC told him the details then .... he then left with William's body and drove to have his Zoom Mtg at Lakewood ..... before disposing of it between then and getting his script at the Pharmacy?

 

[JLZ]

JMO - Could it have been possible that MFC was at FFGM's house at the time, so FFC told him the details then .... he then left with William's body and drove to have his Zoom Mtg at Lakewood ..... before disposing of it between then and getting his script at the Pharmacy?

Not if the photo time is right.

 

[Mauig’ma]

I wish le would give us something to gnaw on for a while while we patiently wait for the foster carers’ court dates. What if the iconic last photo proving William’s proof of life wasn’t correct. That would change everything if it had been manipulated and fooled around with. That would change time line and everything that happened since. Imo moo

 

[Couldbe]

I wish le would give us something to gnaw on for a while while we patiently wait for the foster carers’ court dates. What if the iconic last photo proving William’s proof of life wasn’t correct. That would change everything if it had been manipulated and fooled around with. That would change time line and everything that happened since. Imo moo

JMO – Many details of this case have been reported in varying descriptions over time.

One that stands out to me (because it was written so soon after the event {on the following Thursday after William’s disappearance (6 days later)} is:

In this article, it was reported that the phone on which the last photograph of William was taken has been analysed — and the photo was taken “within an hour” of his disappearance.
https://www.theaustralian.com.au/ne...l/news-story/55fe696ecdf5361c3f164bec8bd03e4d

With what has now transpired, ….. that FFC used her camera which was purchased in July 2014 in Bali, I guess we have to accept that a phone was not used to take the photos …..


I guess this has been left for the Experts to conclude the origin of those photos.

 

[Couldbe]

JMO – Many details of this case have been reported in varying descriptions over time.

One that stands out to me (because it was written so soon after the event {on the following Thursday after William’s disappearance (6 days later)} is:

In this article, it was reported that the phone on which the last photograph of William was taken has been analysed — and the photo was taken “within an hour” of his disappearance.
https://www.theaustralian.com.au/ne...l/news-story/55fe696ecdf5361c3f164bec8bd03e4d

With what has now transpired, ….. that FFC used her camera which was purchased in July 2014 in Bali, I guess we have to accept that a phone was not used to take the photos …..


I guess this has been left for the Experts to conclude the origin of those photos.

MOO -
Was that iconic photo actually taken on a phone (which showed the correct time)?

OR - If at that time, the camera (and not the phone, as was reported) was analysed .... and showed that the photo was taken "within an hour" of his disappearance:-
....... was the earlier Bali time changed to NSW time by Fosters?
....... was the earlier Bali time changed to reflect NSW time by LE?
....... had it been verified by an Expert at that time?

I think that I remember reading that FFC said that she had not altered the time on the camera!

 

[Mauig’ma]

Children can walk away

They can get fair distances too. I’m struggling with why did fm go for a drive but not tell FGM she was leaving sister with her

So she could sneak away with William before anyone noticed a thing. Imo moo

 

[Detective Willy]

If a person or persons were ever charged by Police for Williams murder or manslaughter or a lesser charge, I wonder if they would ask for a judge only trial?

There has been a lot of publicity about this case over the last 7 years and I wonder how many people could honestly say they have not heard about this case or don’t have an opinion already?

The statistics show that you have a much better chance of being found NOT Guilty in a judge only trial in NSW.

Trial by jury vs trial by judge alone – what’s the difference?

What’s better, trial by jury or by a judge alone? NSW statistics indicate that defendants are more likely to be acquitted by a judge alone.

www.stacklaw.com.au

I guess in complex cases like this, it confirms how difficult it can be to prove Guilt in a court of law based on circumstantial evidence and especially if it were to be a judge only trial?

It will be interesting what the Coroner’s findings are at the end of all this.

 

[kiwi50]

If a person or persons were ever charged by Police for Williams murder or manslaughter or a lesser charge, I wonder if they would ask for a judge only trial?

There has been a lot of publicity about this case over the last 7 years and I wonder how many people could honestly say they have not heard about this case or don’t have an opinion already?

The statistics show that you have a much better chance of being found NOT Guilty in a judge only trial in NSW.

Trial by jury vs trial by judge alone – what’s the difference?

What’s better, trial by jury or by a judge alone? NSW statistics indicate that defendants are more likely to be acquitted by a judge alone.

www.stacklaw.com.au

I guess in complex cases like this, it confirms how difficult it can be to prove Guilt in a court of law based on circumstantial evidence and especially if it were to be a judge only trial?

It will be interesting what the Coroner’s findings are at the end of all this.

That surprises me, I’ve always thought if I was charged with a crime and knew I was guilty I’d choose a trial by jury, after seeing some of the bizarre decisions juries can make, and attending quite a few high profile trials in Nz.
if I was innocent I’d be more than happy with a Judge only trial.

 

[FromGermany1]

MOO -
Was that iconic photo actually taken on a phone (which showed the correct time)?

OR - If at that time, the camera (and not the phone, as was reported) was analysed .... and showed that the photo was taken "within an hour" of his disappearance:-
....... was the earlier Bali time changed to NSW time by Fosters?
....... was the earlier Bali time changed to reflect NSW time by LE?
....... had it been verified by an Expert at that time?

I think that I remember reading that FFC said that she had not altered the time on the camera!

It would be interesting to know, why the FPs just then bought a new camera during their last vacation at Bali. Where is the old camera? Was it given to someone as a "gift"? With meaningful photos on it (other pics perhaps deleted)?

 

[FromGermany1]

JMO - Could it have been possible that MFC was at FFGM's house at the time, so FFC told him the details then .... he then left with William's body and drove to have his Zoom Mtg at Lakewood ..... before disposing of it between then and getting his script at the Pharmacy?

IF it was like you are saying, why did FFC leave per car before?
Because MFC sometime was crying in the bathroom, I can imagine, he was involved somehow, yes.

 

[Megnut]

I wish le would give us something to gnaw on for a while while we patiently wait for the foster carers’ court dates. What if the iconic last photo proving William’s proof of life wasn’t correct. That would change everything if it had been manipulated and fooled around with. That would change time line and everything that happened since. Imo moo

Yes, I think we have to challenge the narrative.

Why? Because Wm is missing. Because Wm appears to have evaporated after "5 minutes".

It happens. Abductions, in the blink of an eye. Lina. Unreal accidents occur. Baby Jessica, in the well. Here, LE is looking at the foster mother so it behooves us to look at her story. And dissect it.

Look what we've got. He was playing. He was roaring. He left the frame. He vanished.

Then time is added.

5 minutes of quiet.

20 minutes of searching. First just the foster mother, then the foster mother and grandma together (the circumstances under which the foster mother reconnects with the foster grandma remain unclear to me). Then the foster father returns home and yet Wm's only been missing for the original five minutes.

The foster mother took a drive.

For me, that changes everything.

The photo of Wm, IMO, encapsulates the first story. But consider: even if the timestamp is correct, that was 9:47. Wm is roaring on the deck. (Or showing his mouth. He's playing Daddy Tiger or his rolling dice incorrectly but he is alive and accounted for.) Is she saying he popped up from that photo, was quiet for 5 minutes and by 9:52 he was unfindable? By 10:12, the 20 minutes if searching were done? That would move the call for help up quite a bit.

What time was that call?

If we back up the call from the time it occurred, minus the 25 minutes he was "missing" (5 minutes too quiet plus 20 for searching) and we stick to the 9:47 timestamp, Wm must have been near frozen in place on the deck, for all that time, crouched and roaring.

I don't think ANYONE planned for Wm to disappear/die.

I don't think photos were taken for scrapbooking.

If anything, I think the photos were taken, of Wm, to capture his unreasonableness. To show the foster father. "See, he misbehaves for me. He won't even roll dice nicely." Then when Wm did go "missing", that became his most recent photo and IMO that's where the deck story had its birth. As if Wm went from THAT crouch to one final roar and was gone.

I want to know what REALLY was happening in the final moments. Was Wm being scolded?

Did the foster mother go inside, not to make tea, but to get, say, a wooden spatula?

I think some details have been purposefully omitted.

JMO

 

[SouthAussie]

I wonder if they ever located this vehicle.
I wonder if it was seen on the tennis club CCTV, and if it wasn't, why not?

From the Crabb's testimony ....


Both remembered hearing what they assumed was the postie enter the street. They were half-listening for him [sic], because the [holidaying residents of No.52, across the road] had asked them to take in the mail while they were in Queensland.

'It was a very, very quiet street, you can always hear somebody coming up the road,' [Mr C] said, recalling that he turned to his wife when he heard the car, saying: 'That could be the postie.'

He thought the car had stopped to do a U-turn, or maybe turn in a circle [?], before heading off again.

'It didn't stop at [PS's], it stopped at [FGM's],' he said. 'I don't know how long, about as long as it takes to put a letter in the box. It stopped, and then it kept going.'

[Ms C] also remembers hearing that car.

'You do hear quite a lot,' she said, of Benaroon Drive. 'And I thought this could be the postie. Because it wasn't going slow, it was going reasonably fast, like the postie does.'

[Ms C] said the car paused before it went off again, and it was only when police came asking about unfamiliar vehicles in the street 'that we sat back and started to think that was maybe somebody stopping and picking William up?' said [Mr C]."

"Missing William Tyrrell", 2020, chapter 4, pp.75-6.
Thread 55, post 551

 

[SouthAussie]

Where did FA go with the little boy? What little boy was it? Whose car did he take? Did he take a woman and a little boy, or did he take RP and a little boy?


Ms Rowley told the court another local man, Iris Northam’s husband, came into her shop and said Abbott was upset because he’d driven a “woman and a little boy” to Tamworth and hadn’t been paid. Mr Northam told her he was concerned it was “related to William Tyrrell”.
Lia Harris Twitter - March 12, 2020 from Taree

A dying man confessed to a nurse that he had picked up his best mate and missing toddler William Tyrrell and drove them 300km, a NSW inquest has heard.
Ms Okpegbue told Taree Coroners Court on Tuesday that Mr Porter, who has since died, claimed he gave a friend and William a lift north.
Man claimed he drove William Tyrrell north


Tamworth is about 275km from Kendall.
.