Australia Australia - William Tyrrell, 3, Kendall, NSW, 12 Sept 2014 - #24

[koios]

Koios, the owners of the two cars have never come forward. Whether they were visiting a pole or whatever, they have never answered the request by police to identify themselves and state what they were doing in Benaroon Drive that morning.

The temptation is to take the fact that the drivers of the two cars have not come forward, and to reach the conclusion that the two cars MUST be relevant.
That is a risky assumption to make, because I think by far the commonest abduction scenario is a lone perpetrator, who cannot drive two cars at once.
I can find many cases of abduction which involve a vehicle, but none that involve two vehicles simultaneously.
Here is a useful reality check - has there ever been a case of an abduction by two people, who take two vehicles to do the abduction?

 

[Bohemian]

What was the time interval between hearing "raar", and going round the corner of the house and seeing WT was not there?
Some reporting implies it was as much as even 5 minutes. However the following suggests that it may have been a much shorter interval.

From 60minutes at 8:54s: "he went just around to the right, I could still hear him, he was roaring, and then nothing"
And at 9:10s: "my last sound memory of William is 'raar'. and then it's nothing, it's just silence and he's vanished"

Relying on the verbatim words of the witness, rather than on possibly inaccurate press reports, I think the interval (between hearing 'raar' and discovering WT was not there) may be only a few seconds?

Another indication that the interval (between hearing 'raar' and discovering WT was not there) may have been only a few seconds, is the shock expressed on finding he is not at the perceived location of the 'raar', and even circling on that spot.

Verbatim from an interview (sorry I forget the link but will find if anyone wants it):
"I walked around ... it was just 2 metres, 3 metres away from where we were sitting ... and I just see nothing ... I hear nothing ... I'm walking around in a circle on the spot thinking where is he, why can't I see him"

The temptation is to take the fact that the drivers of the two cars have not come forward, and to reach the conclusion that the two cars MUST be relevant.
That is a risky assumption to make, because I think by far the commonest abduction scenario is a lone perpetrator, who cannot drive two cars at once.
I can find many cases of abduction which involve a vehicle, but none that involve two vehicles simultaneously.
Here is a useful reality check - has there ever been a case of an abduction by two people, who take two vehicles to do the abduction?

Unless there were two cars for two abductions, ie; William and his sister. Two escape routes. Less likelihood of both being caught. Only trouble was, William's sister made a spontaneous diversion from their play (her visit to the toilet) and/or perp(s) bottled it when their Mum realised she could no longer hear William's roaring and came looking for him. (Just how long her 'realisation' took is anyone's guess. Traumatic memory is laid down differently to other forms of memory. I suggest you read Bessel van der Kolk et al's publications on 'Complex Trauma Disorder' to get a better understanding of William's mother's recall of events on the day William disappeared.)

William's big sister has been quoted as saying words to the effect of, 'The bad man took William but Gary (DCI Jubelin) is going to bring him home.'

My questions have always been, 'Did William's slightly older sister see someone in the yard that she recognised, ie; 'the bad man', take flight in response and refuge in the bathroom without telling anyone why?'; 'If so, who (or even what) is that little girl's 'bad man'? The person of whom she is sufficiently terrified to take flight?'

Also, we don't know why police asked for information on the two cars parked in Benaroon Drive that morning. The drivers are obviously POIs that need to be ruled in, or out, of their investigations into William's disappearance. Also if you have concerns regarding an aspect of Strike Force Rosann's investigations, it might be a good idea to contact one of their number, koios.

 

[richieswan]

http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/william-t...-abduction-investigation-20160906-gr9n80.html

Last year a photo came across the desks of NSW detectives showing a young boy and a woman in a McDonald's in Central Queensland.
The boy looked eerily similar to William, and the woman he was with looked like his grandmother, Natalie Collins.

William's complicated background prevents reporting of certain aspects of his family life. However Ms Collins is not the grandmother who lived at the Kendall house where William disappeared from.
Fairfax Media reported last year that the hopes of detectives were dashed when police on the ground in Queensland confirmed the mother and boy were not who they hoped.
Ms Collins had already been tagged as a person of interest in the investigation, a suggestion she strenuously disputes.
The Sydney woman said she didn't know where William was staying at the time he disappeared or that he was going to be in Kendall.

According to Wikipedia, Central Queensland includes bother the interior and coast (orange area below). McDonald's restaurants are concentrated around major towns near the coast: Rockhampton (6), Gladstone (5); and then along the major road heading west: Blackwater (1), Emerald (1).

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Queensland

https://mcdonalds.com.au/find-us/restaurants

 

[sosocurious]

Thanks Soso. Is that article actually quoting the police or is it just an assumption on the part of the journalist I wonder?

Ms Collins had already been tagged as a person of interest in the investigation, a suggestion she strenuously disputes.

BBM
Not sure Makara
Though the ACA interview seemed to indicated that could the case.
NC said if I had William I would not hide him. I would tell the world.
I am not sure. Have the police actually been quoted as naming any poi's? BS, maybe.
imo

 

[koios]

Unless there were two cars for two abductions, ie; William and his sister. Two escape routes. Less likelihood of both being caught. Only trouble was, William's sister made a spontaneous diversion from their play (her visit to the toilet) and/or perp(s) bottled it when their Mum realised she could no longer hear William's roaring and came looking for him. (Just how long her 'realisation' took is anyone's guess. Traumatic memory is laid down differently to other forms of memory. I suggest you read Bessel van der Kolk et al's publications on 'Complex Trauma Disorder' to get a better understanding of William's mother's recall of events on the day William disappeared.)

William's big sister has been quoted as saying words to the effect of, 'The bad man took William but Gary (DCI Jubelin) is going to bring him home.'

My questions have always been, 'Did William's slightly older sister see someone in the yard that she recognised, ie; 'the bad man', take flight in response and refuge in the bathroom without telling anyone why?'; 'If so, who (or even what) is that little girl's 'bad man'? The person of whom she is sufficiently terrified to take flight?'

Also, we don't know why police asked for information on the two cars parked in Benaroon Drive that morning. The drivers are obviously POIs that need to be ruled in, or out, of their investigations into William's disappearance. Also if you have concerns regarding an aspect of Strike Force Rosann's investigations, it might be a good idea to contact one of their number, koios.

I understand the necessity to trace both the two cars, just saying that most abductions are by a lone perpetrator, using one vehicle at most. Although I do agree it is a mystery why the cars were there, where all the houses have large driveways. And thanks for the traumatic memory information, I will consider it next time I listen to the interviews.

 

[SouthAussie]

Ms Collins had already been tagged as a person of interest in the investigation, a suggestion she strenuously disputes.

BBM
Not sure Makara
Though the ACA interview seemed to indicated that could the case.
NC said if I had William I would not hide him. I would tell the world.
I am not sure. Have the police actually been quoted as naming any poi's? BS, maybe.
imo

MSM says the police named Spedding as a POI. I can't find any other references to police naming other POIs. Although, I would not be surprised if MSM have heard about other specific POIs through their sources.
However, the way your link says it, it sounds as if MSM 'suggested' to Ms Collins that she is/was a POI.


BBM

"BILL SPEDDING, the man police named as a person of interest in the disappearance of William Tyrrell, has recorded a video denying any involvement in the case.
The washing machine repairman, who is the only named person of interest in three-year-old William’s disappearance although police are also investigating other lines of inquiry, posted the video on YouTube yesterday.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/la...t/news-story/5a302011d1542762774853c9b25102d7

 

[SouthAussie]

I understand the necessity to trace both the two cars, just saying that most abductions are by a lone perpetrator, using one vehicle at most. Although I do agree it is a mystery why the cars were there, where all the houses have large driveways. And thanks for the traumatic memory information, I will consider it next time I listen to the interviews.

I don't think it is impossible that the cars were visiting #35 Benaroon (the creepy house, that was for sale at some point during or soon after William's disappearance).
I also don't think it is impossible that the drivers of the cars have not come forward if they were at #35 doing or buying something illegal.
Or were they looking at #35 as a potential purchase? People don't usually pull into the driveway when they are casually looking at an advertised house for sale.

It is also possible that the drivers of the cars have come forward by now, or been found by now. They may not have even realised they were being looked for until their cars hit MSM. I feel pretty sure that the police aren't going to update us as they clear people (unless they cleared Spedding, of course ).

 

[koios]

I don't think it is impossible that the cars were visiting #35 Benaroon (the creepy house, that was for sale at some point during or soon after William's disappearance).
I also don't think it is impossible that the drivers of the cars have not come forward if they were at #35 doing or buying something illegal.
Or were they looking at #35 as a potential purchase? People don't usually pull into the driveway when they are casually looking at an advertised house for sale.

It is also possible that the drivers of the cars have come forward by now, or been found by now. They may not have even realised they were being looked for until their cars hit MSM. I feel pretty sure that the police aren't going to update us as they clear people (unless they cleared Spedding, of course ).

Yes visiting 35 is possible. But another mystery is why two cars? If two people wanted to visit 35 they would normally go in one car. A common situation in which two people may arrive at a property in two different cars is a potential buyer and an estate agent. But the mystery remains - why park at the roadside when there is a big driveway. If one of the people is an estate agent, they would use the driveway.

 

[bearbear]

it was reported williams sister hadnt seen anything, so i think the "bad man" reference is because she has possibly been told a bad man took her brother?

 

[SouthAussie]

Yes visiting 35 is possible. But another mystery is why two cars? If two people wanted to visit 35 they would normally go in one car. A common situation in which two people may arrive at a property in two different cars is a potential buyer and an estate agent. But the mystery remains - why park at the roadside when there is a big driveway. If one of the people is an estate agent, they would use the driveway.

I have met my DD at properties for sale to have a casual look. We were coming from different directions. Two cars. We did not pull into the driveways as they were not official visits with a real estate agent, just an initial casual look. We did not want neighbours to think we were up to no good, so left the cars very visible and obviously 'just visiting'. Just a thought.

 

[Bohemian]

The temptation is to take the fact that the drivers of the two cars have not come forward, and to reach the conclusion that the two cars MUST be relevant.
That is a risky assumption to make, because I think by far the commonest abduction scenario is a lone perpetrator, who cannot drive two cars at once.
I can find many cases of abduction which involve a vehicle, but none that involve two vehicles simultaneously.
Here is a useful reality check - has there ever been a case of an abduction by two people, who take two vehicles to do the abduction?

Recent example of two vehicle, multiple abductors, familial abduction (2014):

'The abductors fled in two cars, a white Holden Commodore and a silver Mitsubishi sedan, and police are seeking public assistance to find the two-year-old.'

http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/que...-from-home-by-four-people-20140510-zr9ak.html

'Acting Inspector Alison Jewell said police followed several leads after information had been received from members of the public.

The investigation stretched into New South Wales before vital information tracked the toddler down to the inner-Brisbane suburb of Archerfield.'

http://m.qt.com.au/news/child-abduction-alert-after-girl-2-taken-willowban/2254749/

 

[koios]

I have met my DD at properties for sale to have a casual look. We were coming from different directions. Two cars. We did not pull into the driveways as they were not official visits with a real estate agent, just an initial casual look. Just a thought.

Yes that is a possible explanation South Aussie. It would explain why two cars. And it would explain parking on the roadside. The only mystery remaining would be why they did not come forward.

 

[SouthAussie]

Yes that is a possible explanation South Aussie. It would explain why two cars. And it would explain parking on the roadside. The only mystery remaining would be why they did not come forward.

Could be that they didn't twig that they were at Benaroon Drive immediately prior to a crucial time period.
Could be that they knew they were not there at 10am-10:30am so did not want to get involved.
Could be that they did not understand that police wanted to know about everyone who was at Benaroon Drive that day, no matter what time, until they saw their cars in MSM.
Could be that they were visiting the occupant of that house (was there one? sort of looks like it in the 'for sale' pics) and none of them wanted to disclose why they were visiting (but it was not to do with William). It is a long (skinny) driveway, but perhaps they knew not to block the car that may have been parked there already by a resident of the property.

:dunno:

 

[sosocurious]

MSM says the police named Spedding as a POI. I can't find any other references to police naming other POIs. Although, I would not be surprised if MSM have heard about other specific POIs through their sources.
However, the way your link says it, it sounds as if MSM 'suggested' to Ms Collins that she is/was a POI.


BBM

"BILL SPEDDING, the man police named as a person of interest in the disappearance of William Tyrrell, has recorded a video denying any involvement in the case.
The washing machine repairman, who is the only named person of interest in three-year-old William’s disappearance although police are also investigating other lines of inquiry, posted the video on YouTube yesterday.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/la...t/news-story/5a302011d1542762774853c9b25102d7

I agree and I was just looking through some articles to see just how poi hit the media.

The Daily Telegraph revealed earlier this month that Jones was under the microscope in relation to the disappearance of Spiderman-loving William. He was part of a group called GAPA (Grandparents As Parents Again) which police believe harboured a paedophile ring operating in the area.

But I got side tracked by this one short sentence. Mr Spedding once sold Jones’s daughter a washing machine.

Just made me think about the ever so short and clearly edit (imo) sentence from KL in the ACA interview. Something like "To think my sister went out with him back then"

I wonder if a child was the result of that union.

Because if that was the case then KL would be the aunt of AJ child. Didn't she mention her nieces being there when BS fixed the washer.
imo
http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/ne...d/news-story/1be3e310268cd03272fffaf31997d89a

 

[bearbear]

I have met my DD at properties for sale to have a casual look. We were coming from different directions. Two cars. We did not pull into the driveways as they were not official visits with a real estate agent, just an initial casual look. We did not want neighbours to think we were up to no good, so left the cars very visible and obviously 'just visiting'. Just a thought.

yes i agree, the car owners may have been on the property for sale having a sneaky look around the empty house through windows etc to get a look before going through with an agent

 

[bearbear]

i wonder if there was a police warning at the time in the kendall area alerting families to a possible child abductor?
and unless theyve moved away, the person who took william is possibly walking around kendall with this dark secret and nobody may ever know!
and may have even helped with the search!

 

[crabstick]

A population of more than 10000 people

I wonder if William played on McDonalds playground during the trip on the way down

I was always suss on the stop at McDonalds and the potential for being followed. I had put that in an earlier post.

According to Wikipedia, Central Queensland includes bother the interior and coast (orange area below). McDonald's restaurants are concentrated around major towns near the coast: Rockhampton (6), Gladstone (5); and then along the major road heading west: Blackwater (1), Emerald (1).

https://mcdonalds.com.au/find-us/restaurants

 

[crabstick]

How many houses were 'for sale' in Benaroon drive?

yes i agree, the car owners may have been on the property for sale having a sneaky look around the empty house through windows etc to get a look before going through with an agent

 

[crabstick]

Thats interesting BBM

Recent example of two vehicle, multiple abductors, familial abduction (2014):

'The abductors fled in two cars, a white Holden Commodore and a silver Mitsubishi sedan, and police are seeking public assistance to find the two-year-old.'

http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/que...-from-home-by-four-people-20140510-zr9ak.html

'Acting Inspector Alison Jewell said police followed several leads after information had been received from members of the public.

The investigation stretched into New South Wales before vital information tracked the toddler down to the inner-Brisbane suburb of Archerfield.'

http://m.qt.com.au/news/child-abduction-alert-after-girl-2-taken-willowban/2254749/

 

[SouthAussie]

yes i agree, the car owners may have been on the property for sale having a sneaky look around the empty house through windows etc to get a look before going through with an agent

The thing I don't get about the cars (if they were involved in William's disappearance), is why on earth would you park in such a visible area - noticed by William's mother, and probably others - where your rego numbers could be seen, where your cars can be identified. Where someone could even see clearly inside your car if they were out having a morning stroll, and if you were in the car they'd have a clear vision of your face.

There was no need to park there, if you were after William. There is the track further up the road that would conceal your cars. Plenty of forest and trees to conceal yourself.
It can't have been strategic parking, because they would have no idea that William would run around that particular side of the house, all alone, at any time - let alone that morning when William wasn't even supposed to be there yet.