Australia Australia - William Tyrrell, 3, Kendall, NSW, 12 Sept 2014 - #25

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It would be interesting to know exactly when police started their covert operations into Brett Cowan. Was it before the inquest? Is that why they balked at the inquest? It was not a short covert operation. They befriended Cowan, they followed him to Perth ... this all takes time.
Is that why they are delaying the inquest into William's disappearance? I think it very well could be.

I don't want to underestimate our fine police force. Just as I don't want to negate the probability that Spedding raped two little girls. I think that is unfair to the victims.

How many times does one re-start an investigation? They may already have a lot of traction in this one. We just do not know. But we do know that Jubelin will not give up .... ever.

Yes I agree SA. Or they pulled it all together at speed.
The young bloke in seat 42D on the 8pm back to Perth had the friendliest face Cowan had seen all day. Perhaps too friendly. It was April 1, 2010, and it had been a long couple of days on the stand at the Daniel Morcombe inquest. Lawyer after lawyer had attacked him.
http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...undercover-sting/story-fnl1b568-1226850102402
imo
 
Yes I agree SA. Or they pulled it all together at speed.
The young bloke in seat 42D on the 8pm back to Perth had the friendliest face Cowan had seen all day. Perhaps too friendly. It was April 1, 2010, and it had been a long couple of days on the stand at the Daniel Morcombe inquest. Lawyer after lawyer had attacked him.
http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...undercover-sting/story-fnl1b568-1226850102402
imo

All I know is that the inquest commenced in October 2010, according to Wiki, and the inquest has not finished. It was suspended due to Cowan's arrest. It will resume in late 2016/early 2017, for whatever reason.

Cowan was arrested 10 months after the inquest commenced. How do they start a covert operation to snare Cowan when there is not yet any inquest finding?
I guess it could have happened, but it seems unlikely and, as you say, a very fast covert operation involving an elaborate plan and at least a couple of states, and their authorities.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-08-06/queensland-coroner-to-revisit-daniel-morcombe-case/7697274
https://wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Daniel_Morcombe


ETA: I just realised your link says that the inquest commenced much earlier than October 2010. Bit confusing.
 
Let's not forget the company spedding keeps. AJ for instance.
 
Let's not forget the company spedding keeps. AJ for instance.

When? Does he?. If I'd seen a connection between them to date, I'd probably agree with you all. We can assume because of the lines of business they are both in that they crossed paths more often, but it hasn't been reported. They both move to the coast from a town in central NSW that sits at about the same latitiude. So common when people from the country go on holidays and then decide to move in later life.

http://wauchope.localstats.com.au/demographics/nsw/north-coast/mid-north-coast/wauchope
http://bonny-hills.localstats.com.au/demographics/nsw/north-coast/mid-north-coast/bonny-hills

Above are 2 demographic reports on Warchope and Bonny Hills, I found the percentages of what people do for work interesting or should I say not out of character for the towns 2 of the POI's lived in.
 
BBM: He has already been accused, and charged. Prosecutors in two states feel that there is enough evidence to charge him and bring him to trial.
This is not a Royal Commission inquiry, where people just relate their horrific experiences. There is apparently sufficient real evidence to bring Spedding to trial.

I just get irked because I sometimes feel that the police are being maligned here (not meaning you Karinna, just a general feeling I get at times). Police are doing their absolute best to find William.

It will be interesting to see what evidence they have for sure. I just remember that judge a ways ago that stated it was a very weak case with the historic charges. But maybe there is new evidence?
 
Fair enough. Evidently, some think that Spedding is being framed. I don't personally know why any authority would waste their time and energy doing that. It would not 'recover' William.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...sh-into-thin-air/story-e6frg6z6-1227308929078

The Australian12:00AM April 18, 2015 (This article was published about 1 week before BS was arrested)

The pressure to solve this case is intense, Jubelin says, and all his investigators feel it. There’s the public pressure and the pressure they put on themselves. But, most of all, they want to solve this case for William’s *family. The boy has a complicated family *history. We’ve been told that they can’t be *identified. It makes aspects of this story difficult to report. It also makes it difficult for his *parents to advocate in the media on their son’s behalf. Some of it, frankly, appears a bit ridiculous; bureaucratic overkill from a government department that may be skirting the edge of hampering a homicide investigation.

This investigation must be costing a packet and police and politicians are under huge pressure to resolve it. I think they thought BS did it and the evidence would just come to hand pretty quickly. Police have many tactics to put a POI under pressure and they have applied many to BS. They may well be right about their man, but so far for every accusation, I get the feeling there is a defendable response. I yet again acknowledge that the victims in the historical charges have been the victims of horrific crimes. Whichever one is giving evidence, I do not think she is lying........... I think Strikeforce Rosann pursued these historical charges hard for a number of reasons, to make him known to the public, put him under pressure, isolate him and keep him on a back foot in the WT case. Framed is not the word I would use, I think they have weighed up ethics a few times. My main concern for the victims is I hope they do get their day in court, I hope we do get to hear the evidence. If a stay is granted then obviously I blame the police for going off half cocked and using these victims for their own agenda, (to show to the public that they are making great progress in WT's investigation). I wish the original police interview was found. MOO
 
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...sh-into-thin-air/story-e6frg6z6-1227308929078

The Australian12:00AM April 18, 2015 (This article was published about 1 week before BS was arrested)

The pressure to solve this case is intense, Jubelin says, and all his investigators feel it. There’s the public pressure and the pressure they put on themselves. But, most of all, they want to solve this case for William’s *family. The boy has a complicated family *history. We’ve been told that they can’t be *identified. It makes aspects of this story difficult to report. It also makes it difficult for his *parents to advocate in the media on their son’s behalf. Some of it, frankly, appears a bit ridiculous; bureaucratic overkill from a government department that may be skirting the edge of hampering a homicide investigation.

This investigation must be costing a packet and police and politicians are under huge pressure to resolve it. I think they thought BS did it and the evidence would just come to hand pretty quickly. Police have many tactics to put a POI under pressure and they have applied many to BS. They may well be right about their man, but so far for every accusation, I get the feeling there is a defendable response. I yet again acknowledge that the victims in the historical charges have been the victims of horrific crimes. Whichever one is giving evidence, I do not think she is lying........... I think Strikeforce Rosann pursued these historical charges hard for a number of reasons, to make him known to the public, put him under pressure, isolate him and keep him on a back foot in the WT case. Framed is not the word I would use, I think they have weighed up ethics a few times. My main concern for the victims is I hope they do get their day in court, I hope we do get to hear the evidence. If a stay is granted then obviously I blame the police for going off half cocked and using these victims for their own agenda, (to show to the public that they are making great progress in WT's investigation). I wish the original police interview was found. MOO

Now you’re speaking my language. :) And I apologise if I misunderstood you before.

I agree with just about everything you say here.

And I do think the 6 year old would have clear memory of how (with details) she and her sister were raped by Bill Spedding. That is not to say they were not raped by others, and perhaps there are other court cases happening with other (non-POI) perpetrators too. And perhaps that makes their court case(s) against Spedding weak. Which is a travesty, if their recollection is correct. It sounds like these girls could have been passed around, and for who knows how long and by who.
Heck, I have clear memory of many (non-traumatic) things from that age, just things that stood out to me for one reason or another.
 
I understand your opinion and I'm usually of the same mind, however even in these types of cases, sometimes anomolies happen, and I guess I have so far been willing to give BS the benefit of the doubt as this case has unfolded for the following reasons,
1. He has been separated from the children in his care for a while now and when he was charged with the historical offences he didn't buckle but was adamant he would deny this til the end. He was therefore vulnerable to further people coming forward and making complaints about him, including the kids who had currently been in his care. I have heard of no other victims now in about 16 months.
2. He is a 60 something man who looks like they have been a stable member of the communities he has lived in and has no record. I know people can be different behind closed doors but I think it needs to be taken into account.
3. For someone who has had no experience of jail, he went in on bail and still didn't buckle, with I think more pressure from police while he was in there and isolated from his family and his name associated in MSM with TJ's.
4. His brother-in law was in contact with the victims in January '87 and had intent towards his neices. The offences against the victims were alleged to have happened on a weekend between March and April that year. The hospital, medical report was in May that year. The brother in law was not a garden variety pedo but the worst kind. The victim who was 6 at the time is the only one with memory of it. This seems to be the only incident where there is a medical report and case notes to back up the crime and unfortunately the brother-in-law may well fit into that timeline. My understanding is that the charges in Victoria relate to the same victim who would be even younger when they occurred, no medical records to show something has happened, no observations by the mother at that time have been reported in MSM. The NSW event was obviously the end of BS marriage to CH and with looking at the custody of the children, I think there would have been huge amounts of fear, suspicion, anger and coaching of children very possible. I think it's very possible his ex could have lied to his children cause she felt so guilty and responsible that her brother did this to their children that she thought she would lose custody of them.
5. This is obviously an event he has not hidden from his newer family or relatives, they seemed to allude to it before it hit the papers.
6. I think it's highly possible that in looking at BS during the investigation of the very high profile WT case, his past was agitated and I find it more likely that police approached the victims and their mother in the historical case than the other way around.
7. The fact is that the victims in this case were raped as children, one has no memory of the event and although many of you are confident that the other victim knows what happened to her and by whom, I can't help but consider that her mind may well have been vulnerable to other adults manipulation in her close environment.
8. The way BS was initially portrayed in the MSM gives me cause to think that the police used the media to paint him badly to begin with because they are under enormous pressure to come up with a result around WT, so I think there was prejudice against him by police.
9. That is why I am resistant to the charges levelled at BS. It's ok by me if I'm wrong, but this just seems to me to be one of those extraordinary cases and "POI's"

BS is a good-looking elderly man, tidy dressed, well shaved and mostly neatly combed. If MS is with him he clings to her (because he needs protection) and is holding hands. His family (wife MS and adult children) haven't said a bad word. - Is this enough to give him nothing bad?? If so we may further trust all the priests (bishops, cardinals) or men who ...

... "Appear(s) to be trustworthy and respectable. Ha(s)ve good standing in the community."

http://hellbeasts.com/recognize-paedophiles/

Though there is no hard and fast profile of a pedophile, here are some general characteristics:

Popular with both children and adults.
Appears to be trustworthy and respectable. Has good standing in the community.
Prefers the company of children. Feels more comfortable with children than adults. Is mainly attracted to prepubescent boys and girls. Can be heterosexual, homosexual, or bisexual.
“Grooms” children with quality time, video games, parties, candy, toys, gifts, money.
Singles out children who seem troubled and in need of attention or affection.
Often dates or marries women with children that are the age of his preferred victims.
Rarely forces or coerces a child into sexual contact. Usually through trust and friendship. Physical contact is gradual, from touching, to picking up, to holding on lap, to kissing, etc.
Derives gratification in a number of ways. For some, looking is enough. For others, taking pictures or watching children undress is enough. Still others require more contact.
Finds different ways and places to be alone with children.
Are primarily (but not always) male, masculine, better-educated, more religious than average, in their thirties, and choose jobs allowing them greater access to children.
Are usually family men, have no criminal record, and deny that they abuse children, even after caught, convicted, incarcerated, and court-ordered into a sex offender program. The marriage is often troubled by sexual dysfunction, and serves as a smokescreen for the pedophile’s true preferences and practices.
Are often, but not always, themselves victims of some form of childhood sexual abuse.
Even if the pedophile has no children, his home is usually child-friendly, with toys, books, video games, computers, bikes, swing sets, skateboards, rec room, pool, snacks – things to attract children to his home and keep them coming back. Usually the items reflect the preferred age of his victims.
A female pedophile usually abuses a child when partnered with an adult male pedophile, and is often herself a victim of chronic sexual abuse.
 
Now you’re speaking my language. :) And I apologise if I misunderstood you before.

I agree with just about everything you say here.

And I do think the 6 year old would have clear memory of how (with details) she and her sister were raped by Bill Spedding. That is not to say they were not raped by others, and perhaps there are other court cases happening with other (non-POI) perpetrators too. And perhaps that makes their court case(s) against Spedding weak. Which is a travesty, if their recollection is correct. It sounds like these girls could have been passed around, and for who knows how long and by who.
Heck, I have clear memory of many (non-traumatic) things from that age, just things that stood out to me for one reason or another.
I have a clear memory of a number of non-traumatic things between the ages of three and six. But traumatic things in my early teens, I can't properly remember the details. The 'who', though, I do remember that.
 
It would be interesting to know exactly when police started their covert operations into Brett Cowan. Was it before the inquest? Is that why they balked at the inquest? It was not a short covert operation. They befriended Cowan, they followed him to Perth ... this all takes time.
Is that why they are delaying the inquest into William's disappearance? I think it very well could be.

I don't want to underestimate our fine police force. Just as I don't want to negate the probability that Spedding raped two little girls. I think that is unfair to the victims.

How many times does one re-start an investigation? They may already have a lot of traction in this one. We just do not know. But we do know that Jubelin will not give up .... ever.

Kate Kyriacou has written an excellent book entitled The Sting about the sensational undercover bust of Brett Cowan, revealing extraordinary new details. It is a shocking insight into one of the country's most evil killers, and the operation that brought him down. The Sting is well researched and written as only Kate knows how. It's well worth the read to at least glean a small insight into how undercover police get their man and the professionalism in which they do so. Cowan was obviously no match for these guys.
 
Kate Kyriacou has written an excellent book entitled The Sting about the sensational undercover bust of Brett Cowan, revealing extraordinary new details. It is a shocking insight into one of the country's most evil killers, and the operation that brought him down. The Sting is well researched and written as only Kate knows how. It's well worth the read to at least glean a small insight into how undercover police get their man and the professionalism in which they do so. Cowan was obviously no match for these guys.

Thanks Makara
Extract from that book.
http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...n/news-story/2aa1c20a4a50b9efc874b2ddf1641c7d
 
BS is a good-looking elderly man, tidy dressed, well shaved and mostly neatly combed. If MS is with him he clings to her (because he needs protection) and is holding hands. His family (wife MS and adult children) haven't said a bad word. - Is this enough to give him nothing bad?? If so we may further trust all the priests (bishops, cardinals) or men who ...

... "Appear(s) to be trustworthy and respectable. Ha(s)ve good standing in the community."

http://hellbeasts.com/recognize-paedophiles/

The one thing we (and our children and grandchildren) need to remember is that a CSO does not seem any different, on the surface at least, to a 'non-CSO' (for want of a 'better' moniker).

Also a document mentioned on the Hellbeasts website is an interesting read (discovered when I was searching for an NZ RCSO who could have abducted William):

The Invisible Boy Report: Revisionng the Victimisation of Male Children and Teens (.PDF 287 KB)
 
Fair enough. Evidently, some think that Spedding is being framed. I don't personally know why any authority would waste their time and energy doing that. It would not 'recover' William.

I totally agree. IMO I don't think that Spedding is being framed for the historical child sex offences. IMO it is a case of the angry mother of the two victims trying to right a perceived wrong in her eyes. There is so much we don't yet know about this case and perhaps will never know.

What is really telling IMO is that Spedding, or more to the point his lawyer, is stalling both the NSW and Victorian cases. Why? An innocent man IMO would want to 'get the show on the road' so to speak, clear his name and get on with his life. In reality, both the NSW and Victorian cases could drag on for years. Why anyone would want to live with that hanging over their head is beyond me. And who foots the bill?
 
<modsnip>

There is also the serious matter of the integrity of the Strike Force Rosann investigation into William's disappearance and DCI Jubelin's stated goal of recovering him. I'm sure none of us would want to be responsible for compromising the investigation as it may have serious consequences for William and his extended family.
 
There is also the serious matter of the integrity of the Strike Force Rosann investigation into William's disappearance and DCI Jubelin's stated goal of recovering him. I'm sure none of us would want to be responsible for compromising the investigation as it may have serious consequences for William and his extended family.

Exactly. Thank you.

It has gotten beyond the point of who posts what on Facebook or other social media. What a lot of people don't realise is that there are specialist police squads (in all states and territories of Australia) that are assigned specifically to monitor online social media. They know a whole lot more than we will ever hope to know about everyone even remotely connected to William, his biological family and extended family.
 
I totally agree. IMO I don't think that Spedding is being framed for the historical child sex offences. IMO it is a case of the angry mother of the two victims trying to right a perceived wrong in her eyes. There is so much we don't yet know about this case and perhaps will never know.

What is really telling IMO is that Spedding, or more to the point his lawyer, is stalling both the NSW and Victorian cases. Why? An innocent man IMO would want to 'get the show on the road' so to speak, clear his name and get on with his life. In reality, both the NSW and Victorian cases could drag on for years. Why anyone would want to live with that hanging over their head is beyond me. And who foots the bill?

I think this article on the amount spent on taxpayer-funded appeals for convicted criminals may give us an indication:

Up to $195m NSW taxpayer money funds appeals of criminals
 
Exactly. Thank you.

It has gotten beyond the point of who posts what on Facebook or other social media. What a lot of people don't realise is that there are specialist police squads (in all states and territories of Australia) that are assigned specifically to monitor online social media. They know a whole lot more than we will ever hope to know about everyone even remotely connected to William, his biological family and extended family.

Dang! Does this mean we're out of a job? *searches frantically for knitting basket* ;)
 
it was simply a photograph of the mp, which actually seems pretty relevant. imo, i felt he looked older and larger than in other pics i had seen to date. my post wasn't really about kt, or about sm. i simply felt the pic would be of interest to most on here.
 
it was simply a photograph of the mp, which actually seems pretty relevant. imo, i felt he looked older and larger than in other pics i had seen to date. my post wasn't really about kt, or about sm. i simply felt the pic would be of interest to most on here.

Thank you but unfortunately ----> :confused: and not able to find anything. I will die uninformed.
 
I have a clear memory of a number of non-traumatic things between the ages of three and six. But traumatic things in my early teens, I can't properly remember the details. The 'who', though, I do remember that.

Yes, I think we always remember the 'who' of those who have done us wrong or harmed us, starting from very early in our lives. It is part of our innate makeup, meant to warn us and protect us from further harm.
 
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