Australia Australia - William Tyrrell, 3, Kendall, Nsw, 12 Sept 2014 - #60

[Edgar70]

First time listening to this.

I hear a sobbing, grieving FF who was described as the apple of William's eye, who states more than once "I didn't know what to believe."

I heard FM state:
"...picked him up and 'moved him on'". I would use this phrase if a child was being silly or naughty where I would pick them up and "move them on" to something else. I would more expect words to the effect of "took him" or "abducted him".

"...how can a little 3 year old boy 'vanish into nothing'?" "Nowhere" is the word I probably would have used here. IMO.

 

[PinkPower]

I agree TGY, it's heading that way.

It's actually quite different because these people have been charged with assaulting a minor in their care and have been called POI's or in some news reports, suspects.
This was never true of the CS case. IMO.

 

[DDDddd]

Isn't tea with sugar given for shock?
I'm missing the relevance of the cup or pot of tea.

someone said the lawyer was asking questions about the tea at the inquiry. I'm considering why he did that.

 

[Shadow@light]

IMO,I wonder is it PS who gave new information.
As you said Stormyseas his misguidedness to the late Foster Grandmother may have been protecting her in misguided way. I felt he was running around circles with JB even baiting leading down the merry path.
Yesterday in a interview, he said He knows one of the Bio Family Member, does not day which one.
Online Daily Mail Australia.

 

[Tigerlily75]

They were interviewed by GJ, he didn’t get to DCI by not knowing his craft, I am struggling with how unlikely it is to be foster care type person, then interfere with the corpse of the kid being cared for, then front up like that didn’t happen. What’s missing here?

I’m not sure why it would be unlikely, abuse in foster care is actually a huge problem. I’m not an expert, but I think people underestimate how hard it can be to care for someone else’s child. In this scenario, foster mother has said William didn’t take to her, abut bonded instantly with the foster father. She said the bond between William and the foster dad was “beautiful to watch” but perhaps underneath it wasn’t so lovely for her.

Hundreds of children in care abused last year, report finds

 

[Deleted member 161976]

Caroline Overington (CO) is also saying FF left at 9:30am and phone records have been checked.....

About 9.30am, William’s foster father left the house. We know this is true because his phone has been tracked. He made a Skype call from an area with better internet connection, then picked up a paper and dropped by the chemist to fill a script.

But from previous statements (timeline)

8.55-9.00 MFC leaves, FFC said in her evidence that the MFC had already left when kids were riding bikes on the driveway.

The day little William vanished into thin air … (theaustralian.com.au)

IMO

Not to pick at hairs but MFC said himself in the Lia Harris podcast it was a GoTo meeting, not Skype. It's a different technology with similar functionality, i.e. for meetings with remote participants. I've used GoTo meetings myself in work.
Also I thought it was closer to 903 that MFC left, might have been stated at inquest IIRC?

 

[JBowie]

polygraphs are unreliable, they are inadmissible for a reason.

They may be unreliable, and yes they are inadmissible, but they have their place.

Truly innocent people under investigation are not usually averse to taking a polygraph test. In fact some may even request one.

"Though evidence from a polygraph is inadmissible in court, the [NSW Lie Detectors Act 1983] does not prohibit police from using such testing during their investigations."

 

[marellajubes]

I was just trying to re-visit this, with the possible time line discrepancies......

To see if it fit or not????

Council for the Coroner asked a lot of questions about the "tea" at the inquest..... it seemed quite odd at the time, but there must have been some point he was trying get across..... or question he trying to get answered to prove or disprove a point.....

We don't know the answer yet.... but the tea was still warm when the first officer arrived at the home......

I guess we need to ask who really made the tea??? Was the tea actually made while FM was on her drive???

None of it seems to be making sense atm

All IMO

The FGM was recovering from knee surgery I think. So lets assume she was in no state to go out and look. So maybe she was looking after william's sister in the house and to busy herself cause of worry she made tea for the arriving police officers. You do weird things in a state of panic.You just go into automation mode.

I don't think the tea is a smoking gun, cause do you really go and hide a body and then come back and make yourself a tea?

 

[JoeDetective]

I held onto hope William was still alive, I know it's a long shot but DC Supt. Bennett shut the book on that one. The question is, if this investigation isn't successful in finding evidence of his death or his remains, nothing. Is the prospect he could be alive back on the table?

Until you have definitive evidence, you should not rule out the possibility he is still alive, however unlikely that may be. Keeping an open mind and following the evidence is vital in these investigations however unlikely it is, it is still possible until it is not.

 

[BigT]

But isn’t the current police commissioner (and many others) insinuating that he didn’t do a thorough investigation? I don’t think I’m saying anything controversial when I say that GJ probably isn’t a reliable source of information regarding this case and how it previously unfolded.

GJ was rock star status in this forum at one stage, going hard at everyone, no apologies. He has met many murderers, and is a reliable source when he says, “I didn’t think the FP were involved”. He says he keeps an open mind now, But Now, we are considering one or both FP are killers or have disposed of a body, AND fooled GJ. It just strikes me as less likely than likely.

 

[BigT]

But isn’t the current police commissioner (and many others) insinuating that he didn’t do a thorough investigation? I don’t think I’m saying anything controversial when I say that GJ probably isn’t a reliable source of information regarding this case and how it previously unfolded.

GJ was rock star status in this forum at one stage, going hard at everyone, no apologies. He has met many murderers, and is a reliable source when he says, “I didn’t think the FP were involved”. He says he keeps an open mind now, But Now, we are considering one or both FP are killers or have disposed of a body, AND fooled GJ. It just strikes me as less likely than likely.

 

[Tigerlily75]

Isn't tea with sugar given for shock?
I'm missing the relevance of the cup or pot of tea.

The coroner was asking questions about the tea.

 

[they'll get you]

I held onto hope William was still alive, I know it's a long shot but DC Supt. Bennett shut the book on that one. The question is, if this investigation isn't successful in finding evidence of his death or his remains, nothing. Is the prospect he could be alive back on the table?

Unless a credible, honest witness comes forward with a video, finger prints and 4x5 glossy photos.

Its hard to believe anyone anymore. Someone retracted seeing BS’s van in the bush, the two cars racing with William’s face at the window, someone giving William and a pedo a lift up the coast and another who saw BGM and William on a park bench.
All would swear on a stack of bibles!

I say let the cops do their process of elimination and we’ll see if William’s file gets put into the ‘cold case’ basket.

 

[Shadow@light]

I'm not sure either. Something about how long the tea stayed hot for ?

Being with my Grandparents, they liked their tea in a teapot with coszy on it. Teapot would be quite warm for awhile. My Grandparents would drink tea halfway in their cup and top it up to the brim.
Always loose tea leaves better flavor(holds heat more) more refreshing.
And the Tea leaves reading.

 

[PrimeSuspect]

I would also like to know a what age a child can be called as a witness in an inquest or even if they can be at all ?

In this Guide, it mentions children can attend an inquest but I can't find whether a child can give evidence, I assume they can.

https://coroners.nsw.gov.au/documen...or families and friends of missing people.pdf

 

[PrimeSuspect]

It's actually quite different because these people have been charged with assaulting a minor in their care and have been called POI's or in some news reports, suspects.
This was never true of the CS case. IMO.

It's an alleged assault, and FM is a POI.

Yep, headed that way.

 

[TootsieFootsie]

Child Witnesses (NSW) - Go To Court

It is common for courts to hear evidence from children in criminal matters. Child witnesses are often the alleged victims of crimes but they may also give evidence in circumstances where they are not directly involved in the alleged offence.

Child witnesses are competent to give evidence provided they can demonstrate that they understand the difference between truth and lies. How the court will establish this depends on the age and maturity of the child.

When child witnesses give evidence in court, different procedures are followed from when adults give evidence. Particular measures can be taken to ensure the child feels comfortable and is not unnecessarily traumatised.

 

[JoeDetective]

They may be unreliable, and yes they are inadmissible, but they have their place.

Truly innocent people under investigation are not usually averse to taking a polygraph test. In fact some may even request one.

"Though evidence from a polygraph is inadmissible in court, the [NSW Lie Detectors Act 1983] does not prohibit police from using such testing during their investigations."

Yes and no.
One major issue is that people can convince themselves of things that never happened, especially after extended periods of time.

The value is really at the initial stages to gauge the intent from the parents who should be willing to do almost anything to find their child and ensure the police stay focused on real suspects. The parents should have been statistically speaking the prime suspects in a missing child case very early on and until ruled out and they would likely have been asked to do a polygraph so the police could rule them out and focus on other lines of enquiry.
If they had engaged a lawyer before this was proposed to them the lawyer would likely have advised against it but often a desperate parent will overrule this in the insistence of their innocence and a desire to get the police looking at real suspects.
It is not definitive either way, that said the foster parents come across as quite aloof to me which is not uncommon with individuals in higher socioeconomic areas and thus I would not be surprised at all if they dismissed the notion out of hand as frivolous.

It is very hard to read too much into it in this context of this case.

 

[marellajubes]

They may be unreliable, and yes they are inadmissible, but they have their place.

Truly innocent people under investigation are not usually averse to taking a polygraph test. In fact some may even request one.

"Though evidence from a polygraph is inadmissible in court, the [NSW Lie Detectors Act 1983] does not prohibit police from using such testing during their investigations."

Ive never committed a crime, nor think I ever will yet I would never sit for a polygraph just because I know how unreliable they can be. Take my DNA, fingerprints whatever, but nope, would not take a polygraph.

Its not the movies, we really need to move away from oh that person is guilty cause they are protecting themselves by not participating in something that can provide inaccurate results. Its the same with the lawyer thing. As soon as someone asks for a lawyer, guilt is implied. But based on how much LE can screw up or have blinders, have in the past coerced inaccurate confessions, I'd be getting a lawyer if I was ever formally questioned. Happy to answer all questions truthfully, but I want someone by my side to know what exactly is going on and knows my rights better than I

 

[BigT]

I’m not sure why it would be unlikely, abuse in foster care is actually a huge problem. I’m not an expert, but I think people underestimate how hard it can be to care for someone else’s child. In this scenario, foster mother has said William didn’t take to her, abut bonded instantly with the foster father. She said the bond between William and the foster dad was “beautiful to watch” but perhaps underneath it wasn’t so lovely for her.

Hundreds of children in care abused last year, report finds

Abuse a huge problem is agreed. Kill or dispose of a body, that’s an escalation from abuse. I am just not buying in at this stage.