Australia Australia - William Tyrrell Disappeared While Playing in Yard - Kendall (NSW) #77

[investikater]

If the FP were bad parents, what tf is the point of removing a kid from their home and family because you don't think their parents are good enough, and then putting them with parents who are just as bad or worse? Just leave them with their suboptimal parents and they will probably be better off by the time you take into account all the instability.

 

[investikater]

I also don't understand it because nowadays - as far as I understand - it is basically impossible to adopt children, and extremely difficult to foster, especially healthy babies and toddlers?

You have to foster for many years, during which the birth parents could get the child back at any time. I understand the desire to reunite birth families if possible, but this seems to me unfair to the foster family and importantly possibly to the children. On the other hand if they are still removing children for stupid reasons then it is necessary, but surely they should stop doing that instead.

If children are so in demand, rather than desperate for homes, how did the FPs manage to get two, let alone healthy young children? Am I incorrect?

 

[SouthAussie]

If the FP were bad parents, what tf is the point of removing a kid from their home and family because you don't think their parents are good enough, and then putting them with parents who are just as bad or worse? Just leave them with their suboptimal parents and they will probably be better off by the time you take into account all the instability.

It's all very well making these types of comments, but my state has children who have been in the eye of our DCP who have died because they were NOT removed. How are they supposed to know where the line is when it is so murky?

2015 -- Chloe Valentine (4) died while her mother forced her to "play" on a little motorcycle, despite Chloe sustaining injuries every time she crashed - injuries that then killed her
2022 - An 11-week old boy died due to living in squallor
2022 - Charlie (6) died in his home - criminal neglect
2022 - Makai (7) died in his home - criminal neglect

There are more, but I think this is enough to show my point.

 

[TootsieFootsie]

It's all very well making these types of comments, but my state has children who have been in the eye of our DCP who have died because they were NOT removed. How are they supposed to know where the line is when it is so murky?

Multiplied many times all over the whole of Australia

 

[LolaAngelina]

I also don't understand it because nowadays - as far as I understand - it is basically impossible to adopt children, and extremely difficult to foster, especially healthy babies and toddlers?

You have to foster for many years, during which the birth parents could get the child back at any time. I understand the desire to reunite birth families if possible, but this seems to me unfair to the foster family and importantly possibly to the children. On the other hand if they are still removing children for stupid reasons then it is necessary, but surely they should stop doing that instead.

If children are so in demand, rather than desperate for homes, how did the FPs manage to get two, let alone healthy young children? Am I incorrect?

Where has it been said it’s extremely difficult to foster or that children “are so in demand”? William and his sister were in permanent care of the state, they were not being returned to the bio family

 

[iiiii's]

Have you got a link to the event you're describing, please and the appropriate court documents if relevant?

The following event occurred before WT was born when his sister was in her 1st year. I know that in the past I have read that police contacted FACS after this event as they were so concerned at the bio mother's behaviour. If anyone else can find that missing link I'd be grateful. Seems to be in articles published from January to May 2017

Missing toddler: William Tyrrell's mother has violent past
In 2010, Tyrrell had gone to the Ryde area to celebrate her 22nd birthday with family members at her father's house. One relative was at the time subject to a court-ordered curfew.


Police were called to the house after neighbours reported noise in the street and they found Tyrrell in the road.

During a heated exchanged which ensued with a female police officer, she punched the officer in the face.

Tyrrell was convicted and sentenced in Ryde Local Court in August 2010 on charges of assaulting an officer and resisting an officer in the execution of duty, fined a total of A$500 (NZ$535)and placed on a 12-month bond.

 

[iiiii's]

All the stuff that has come out about the FPs behaviour. Are we sure that it's not just discipline that is being viewed through a dark lens?
I don't believe in smacking but some people do, and it used to be normal.

Good questions, and I think it's possible some of the vile things said were not said directly to the child but were picked up on surveillance... at least I think that will be argued by the MFC.

 

[investikater]

Where has it been said it’s extremely difficult to foster or that children “are so in demand”?

Its something I've been told by soooo many people trying to have children over the years. I'd definitely say it's at least a belief that's out there amongst a lot of people. I always assumed it must be true because ive heard it so many times - that's why I was asking if it is correct?

William and his sister were in permanent care of the state, they were not being returned to the bio family

'Permanent care of the state' - so they can never be adopted then? That sounds like what I've heard is correct?

And they were having recurring visits with their birth family. Which I always think seems like a good idea. But are you sure they were never able to go back then? Doesn't W have birth siblings who still live with his birth family?

ALL JUST MY OWN OPINION

 

[investikater]

It's all very well making these types of comments, but my state has children who have been in the eye of our DCP who have died because they were NOT removed. How are they supposed to know where the line is when it is so murky?

2015 -- Chloe Valentine (4) died while her mother forced her to "play" on a little motorcycle, despite Chloe sustaining injuries every time she crashed - injuries that then killed her
2022 - An 11-week old boy died due to living in squallor
2022 - Charlie (6) died in his home - criminal neglect
2022 - Makai (7) died in his home - criminal neglect

There are more, but I think this is enough to show my point.

I know its a damned if you do and damned if you don't situation.

I have no idea how they decide? From the outside it seems quite arbitrary and like it's up to the whim of individual social workers and judges and the tides of political forces.

ALL JUST MY OWN OPINION

 

[investikater]

The following event occurred before WT was born when his sister was in her 1st year. I know that in the past I have read that police contacted FACS after this event as they were so concerned at the bio mother's behaviour. If anyone else can find that missing link I'd be grateful. Seems to be in articles published from January to May 2017

Missing toddler: William Tyrrell's mother has violent past
In 2010, Tyrrell had gone to the Ryde area to celebrate her 22nd birthday with family members at her father's house. One relative was at the time subject to a court-ordered curfew.


Police were called to the house after neighbours reported noise in the street and they found Tyrrell in the road.

During a heated exchanged which ensued with a female police officer, she punched the officer in the face.

Tyrrell was convicted and sentenced in Ryde Local Court in August 2010 on charges of assaulting an officer and resisting an officer in the execution of duty, fined a total of A$500 (NZ$535)and placed on a 12-month bond.

Have the various birth family members been ruled out now? Its confusing because of all the secrecy there was at the time. All I remember before the current focus on the foster parents was a lot of focus on the neighbours and then a lot of focus on workmen in the area. So it's possible they were pois for a while but it wasn't publicly known or reportable in Australia at the time?

ALL MY OWN OPINION

 

[investikater]

How come the foster parents identities are still secret?
We are allowed to know now that he is a foster child.
We are allowed to know now the identity of his birth parents.
We are allowed to know his name and face because he is still missing.
So why the secrecy over their identities still?

 

[bearbear]

All the stuff that has come out about the FPs behaviour. Are we sure that it's not just discipline that is being viewed through a dark lens?
I don't believe in smacking but some people do, and it used to be normal.

what about kicking hard enough to leave a large bruise and emotional abuse?

 

[investikater]

Good questions, and I think it's possible some of the vile things said were not said directly to the child but were picked up on surveillance... at least I think that will be argued by the MFC.

The current prosecution of the FPs is a bit bizarre to me. It's like they are being alleged and judged more as bad parents but not for anything actually illegal like abuse as far as I can tell.
Before this they were prosecuted over a financial crime.
And before that LE did this huge search of the bushland in front of the media, which seemed to me almost like a performance.

ALL MY OWN OPINION

 

[LolaAngelina]

Its something I've been told by soooo many people trying to have children over the years. I'd definitely say it's at least a belief that's out there amongst a lot of people. I always assumed it must be true because ive heard it so many times - that's why I was asking if it is correct?


'Permanent care of the state' - so they can never be adopted then? That sounds like what I've heard is correct?

And they were having recurring visits with their birth family. Which I always think seems like a good idea. But are you sure they were never able to go back then? Doesn't W have birth siblings who still live with his birth family?

Foster care in Australia: How does it work?

Around 46,000 children are in 'out of home care' in Australia and there is a shortage of foster parents. So just how do you become a foster carer?

www.myforeverfamily.org.au

“Around 46,000 children are in ‘out of home care’ in Australia.
There is a shortage of foster parents in the country and in some cases there is a need for people from a specific cultural background”

 

[investikater]

what about kicking hard enough to leave a large bruise and emotional abuse?

FMs explanation was that the kid had attacked the other kid and she was trying to show the kid that kicking was bad. Trying to elicit empathy.

I mean its plausible I think? It seems at least kind of logical to me. I'm not super knowledgable about childhood development though.
Would such a thing work? Would it do more harm than good?

But whether or not it would have actually worked as a lesson for the alledgedly violent child, if the foster parent did it with good intentions, I'm really not sure it rises to the level of abuse?


Emotional abuse is definitely very bad, but it also seems even more subjective as the different between smacking or spanking and abuse.
I have no idea how you objectively tell the difference between an audio recording of a bunch of arguements between a teenager and parents, and an emotionally abusive situation? Especially if everyone is stressed and suffering from bereavement or POSSIBLY mental illness?

ALL MY OWN OPINION

 

[iiiii's]

FMs explanation was that the kid had attacked the other kid and she was trying to show the kid that kicking was bad. Trying to elicit empathy.

I mean its plausible I think? It seems at least kind of logical to me. I'm not super knowledgable about childhood development though.
Would such a thing work? Would it do more harm than good?

But whether or not it would have actually worked as a lesson for the alledgedly violent child, if the foster parent did it with good intentions, I'm really not sure it rises to the level of abuse?


Emotional abuse is definitely very bad, but it also seems even more subjective as the different between smacking or spanking and abuse.
I have no idea how you objectively tell the difference between an audio recording of a bunch of arguements between a teenager and parents, and an emotionally abusive situation? Especially if everyone is stressed and suffering from bereavement or POSSIBLY mental illness?

ALL MY OWN OPINION

The magistrate hearing the case has stated there is a prima facie case to answer to, so that means, to her mind, assault has been proven by both and she will have to consider submissions from the defendants if there are any, such as extenuating circumstances, psychological reports, asking for and being knocked back on seeking extra support etc. The FFC is pleading guilty to 2 counts of assault but defending the charge of intimidation. In Australia, if corporal punishment is used it is with an open hand, no implements, below the shoulder and above the knee. Corporal punishment may not be used on foster children. They are also not to sleep in the same bed as foster parents but did the night before WT disappeared. Usually, when the family visited the FGM the foster parents would sleep on blow up mattresses in the loungeroom and the children had the rooms. The MFC is pleading not guilty to assault and also intimidation. I don't think we have heard either defence as yet. MOO

 

[iiiii's]

Have the various birth family members been ruled out now? Its confusing because of all the secrecy there was at the time. All I remember before the current focus on the foster parents was a lot of focus on the neighbours and then a lot of focus on workmen in the area. So it's possible they were pois for a while but it wasn't publicly known or reportable in Australia at the time?

ALL MY OWN OPINION

At the 1st tranche of the inquest the counsel assisting the coroner stated that both sets of parents were cleared but the same could not be said of their associates.

 

[investikater]

Foster care in Australia: How does it work?

Around 46,000 children are in 'out of home care' in Australia and there is a shortage of foster parents. So just how do you become a foster carer?

www.myforeverfamily.org.au

“Around 46,000 children are in ‘out of home care’ in Australia.
There is a shortage of foster parents in the country and in some cases there is a need for people from a specific cultural background”

Thank you.

So more quotes from that article:

Monica* and her husband have three foster children, all from the same birth mother. They are five, three and a half and one years of age.

After applying through an agency to become foster parents, they got approved for up to three children — zero to 10 years of age.

so when their 3 kids reach 10 years old, they lose them? They go back to their birth family, or to another foster family? They have to apply to adopt the kids they have raised since they were babies, and they might get turned down? Or they can just decide they dont want their kids anymore? Poor kids.

"When a child initially comes into care, they come into care on what are called 'interim orders'. So the court will grant an order for a short period of time in order for work to be done regarding what the overall goal for that child will be," Ms Hughes explains.
In some cases, a child who joins a family for short-term, may end up staying with them long-term or vice versa, but it’s almost impossible to know for sure from the beginning, Ms Hughes clarifies.
Other times, a long-term carer that has a child in their care for years, can express an interest in guardianship or adoption.
Monica admits, especially at the beginning, it was not easy not come to terms with the uncertainty of foster parenting.
"It's just always something that doesn't feel as permanent as a child who's adopted or your own birth-child."

So what ive heard is true.

The social worker and or the journalist in this article contradicts herself a few times IN MY OPINION. For example she said the above and also she says:

Ms Hughes says people can put up their hand for different types of foster care. "We have everything, from short-term emergency carers, long-term carers, carers that are seeking adoption or guardianship of the children in their care, and we have respite carers as well — so carers that just provide care as and when they can. So, that might be one weekend, a month, or two weekends a month," she explains.

People can chose the permanent option. Except when they chose that, they might get the short term option.

I understand that it's about what is best for the children not what is best for the adults, but I don't see how the instability is what is best for the kids!?

And adults have feelings too. If there really is a shortage of foster parents then maybe it would help to give foster parents more stability!?

As for this:

There is a shortage of foster parents in the country and in some cases there is a need for people from a specific cultural background”

Sigh. I realise having connection to your cultural roots is important but IN MY OPINION it is not more important than having a stable loving home and good parents of any background. Good parents can always take the child to culturally enriching activiities.

This current fashion of keeping kids in institutions because of lack of optimal foster parents, or even ripping kids away from good foster parents because they are not the optimal race or ethnicity or religion is disgusting IN MY OPINION.

 

[SouthAussie]

<modsnip - quoted post, response removed>

The police should have notified DCJ right away .. in Jan 2021. If a child (and us) can't rely on our police departments to protect the child when they clearly knew what was going on, I don't know what our society has stooped to.

 

[thunderwombat]

<modsnip - quoted post and response removed>

I don't know how early on in the tapes the first episode of abuse was heard. I find it hard to believe that the foster parents were kind and patient and the abuse only began when the surveillance started. I don't know why the police acted why they did. <modsnip> My own experiences as a foster child, a foster parent of 27 years experience and over a decade working in child welfare services has maybe given me a differnt perspective than most people.

<modsnip - what happens at other forums is irrelevant here>