GUILTY Austria - Woman Held Captive, Had 7 Children by Father

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from the times online, answers to some of my questions:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article3867629.ece

<FRITZL’S double life began to unravel last month when Kerstin, the eldest of the cellar children, became seriously ill and lost consciousness. Elisabeth convinced her father that unless he took Kerstin to a hospital, she would die.

On April 19, Fritzl drove Kerstin to Amstetten-Mauer clinic where doctors discovered a note that Elisabeth had slipped into her pocket. Fritzl told doctors that she had been left in front of his doorstep and described how his daughter had gone off to join a cult, occasionally sending them children to look after.

“Please help her,” the note said. “Kerstin is afraid of people. She has never been in a hospital before. Please ask my father to help. He is the only person that she knows.”

Doctors were not sure what to make of Kerstin’s illness and launched an appeal for information on the whereabouts of her mother. Elisabeth saw the appeal on television on April 26. She persuaded Fritzl to take her to the hospital.

He led her and the two other children upstairs, announcing to his wife that Elisabeth had suddenly returned with her new children.

He then took Elisabeth to visit Kerstin. An anonymous caller tipped off police that Kerstin’s mother was about to arrive at the hospital. Elisabeth was arrested: she was wanted for having left babies on her father’s doorstep.

At first she stuck to her father’s story about joining a cult. She then began to talk, offering a full account of her ordeal after receiving assurances that she would never have to set eyes on her father again.

Fritzl’s long masquerade was over. He was arrested, and police started to unravel the dreadful story as counsellors rushed in. They witnessed remarkable scenes as the two boys who had lived in the cellar discovered fresh air, sunshine and normality for the first time.>

then it goes onto to say how austria is a patriarchal society where no one questions the men, and that's why his wife never thought to investigate the disappearance of her own daughter, or why her grandchildren started showing up on her doorstep, blah blah blah, whatever.
 
CarpeDiem said:
The crimes of Dennis Radar (BTK) went on for 30 years before he was stopped. His wife never knew either.
Click to expand...

But it wasn't going on in her own basement!

Personally, I'm reserving judgment about whether or not Rosemarie knew anything. The Austrian police seem awfully sure that she didn't, but on the other hand, they seem a bit dimwitted themselves. There's quite a lot they clearly haven't thought of, and some of their remarks seem more than a little admiring of the criminal.

To me, the most compelling evidence for Rosemarie's innocence in all this is that Elisabeth didn't think she was involved. It doesn't rule out the possibility that R.F. was somehow complicit behind the scenes, but after 24 years without much else to think about, I think E. would probably have noticed something.
 
but again,, i think this is where that weird gray area comes in.. that strange psychological twilight zone of knowing something deep down inside, but not wanting to know.. so that part of your mind that wants to protect your sanity, and that illusion of normalcy, shields your awareness. i think the wife led as much of a double life as the husband. surely your gut, your instinct, your common sense, not to mention all the clues and things that did not add up, would be telling you something. but i think because of the patriarchal culture of teaching young girls to NOT question things... and the mental abuse she suffered herself.. it paralyzes the brain. so i think once she feels safe enough to talk herself,, i bet a lot more will come out. in other words,, i don't even think she is aware that she knew something, quite yet. i think her brain is so split, her awareness is so cut off from herself.

that is.. if she is of normal intelligence and otherwise sound mind.
 
"On Saturday, it was also claimed that for the first nine years following her imprisonment in 1984, Elisabeth was kept in only one basement room beneath the house.
Pictures of the complex released so far show an extended basement thought to contain at least four rooms, but Germany's Der Spiegel magazine, citing sources close to the investigation, said the extensions were not carried out until 1993, and that until then Elisabeth was confined to a single basement chamber within what was originally built as a nuclear bunker.
The magazine said it meant that the three children born during those first nine years must have witnessed Fritzl raping their mother at close quarters."



from the Telegraph UK
 
reb said:
but again,, i think this is where that weird gray area comes in.. that strange psychological twilight zone of knowing something deep down inside, but not wanting to know.. so that part of your mind that wants to protect your sanity, and that illusion of normalcy, shields your awareness. i think the wife led as much of a double life as the husband. surely your gut, your instinct, your common sense, not to mention all the clues and things that did not add up, would be telling you something. but i think because of the patriarchal culture of teaching young girls to NOT question things... and the mental abuse she suffered herself.. it paralyzes the brain. so i think once she feels safe enough to talk herself,, i bet a lot more will come out. in other words,, i don't even think she is aware that she knew something, quite yet. i think her brain is so split, her awareness is so cut off from herself.

that is.. if she is of normal intelligence and otherwise sound mind.
Click to expand...

Very good post.
 
They had a good show on this tonite (CNN, I think). It was very informative and very disturbing. It showed them talking to people on the street about it and one man just began to sob. He was so upset something like that could happen and you could tell he just couldn't fathom such a thing. Then again...who could?! It showed another man, one of the tenants, saying he heard banging and things, but never thought about someone actually being down there.
 
A thing i've thought about in our responses to the very idea such an awful crime &#8212; no words can sufficiently describe it, to my mind &#8212; is we who partake of Websleuths are such who would question the oddity of the neighbour schlepping stuff to a basement on regular basis and so forth. but would your neighbour?

i am now of the opinion RF knew, btw. :(
 
They covered that in the story saying that her husband was oppressive and abusive to her. If she had suspicions, she would probably not have been free to express those out of fear. She was told her daughter had run away and she believed him because of the letters he provided in the daughter's handwriting. I can see her wanting to believe that instead of that she might be dead or worse...being held captive and raped for all those years. With the dungeon being sound proofed, she didn't hear anything coming from there and obviously she wasn't allowed to ever go down there. Who knows what he told he was doing down there all that time?! He probably had her scared to death to find out.
 
SeriouslySearching said:
They covered that in the story saying that her husband was oppressive and abusive to her. If she had suspicions, she would probably not have been free to express those out of fear. She was told her daughter had run away and she believed him because of the letters he provided in the daughter's handwriting. I can see her wanting to believe that instead of that she might be dead or worse...being held captive and raped for all those years. With the dungeon being sound proofed, she didn't hear anything coming from there and obviously she wasn't allowed to ever go down there. Who knows what he told he was doing down there all that time?! He probably had her scared to death to find out.
Click to expand...

I do now understand she was probably (surely!) under duress of enormity. i had thought, at one time, she really didn't have a clue.
 
Can you imagine his daughter having those babies all alone with probably nothing? I know everything was torture for her, but that in particular bothers me. My heart breaks for her and her children. They will never recover, but at least they won't be suffering like they were anymore. I hope her mother spends her time with them providing she wants to see her mother. She may feel her mother did nothing to protect her and wants nothing to do with her, too. I can't say I would blame her for it.
 
reb said:
“Please help her,” the note said. “Kerstin is afraid of people. She has never been in a hospital before. Please ask my father to help. He is the only person that she knows.”...

At first she stuck to her father’s story about joining a cult. She then began to talk, offering a full account of her ordeal after receiving assurances that she would never have to set eyes on her father again.
Click to expand...

I 'like' the way the Austrian police's first instinct was to arrest Elisabeth. It seems typical of the whole way they have handled this case from when Elisabeth was 11.

The question of the anonymous tip-off remains an important one. It could (though not necessarily) point to an accomplice. Again it is typical of the Austrian police's attitude that they are just shrugging their shoulders and saying they respect the privacy of the anonymous tipster.

Elisabeth seems almost to have become accustomed to her situation. Her note did not contain any plea for rescue, and she was apparently prepared to go along with her father's deception. I would guess this can only partly be put down to straightforward fear, and shows some of the psychological complexity of situations like this - i.e. Stockholm syndrome.

I heard the leader of Austria is planning some kind of global advertising campaign to restore his country's image. I would say he should focus his money and effort on looking at his own society instead and seeing what needs to be done to change it -- not trying to polish a turd.
 
I think the note didn't have a plea for rescue because he was telling her exactly what to say. She had no choice but to say what he told her. He had all the power over her and could hurt her more if she didn't go along with what he said.
 
Annie said:
I think the note didn't have a plea for rescue because he was telling her exactly what to say. She had no choice but to say what he told her. He had all the power over her and could hurt her more if she didn't go along with what he said.
Click to expand...

That's what I think too. The part about letting her father help her because he is the only one she knows sounds like it came from him.
 
I believe he ahd told authorities he was building a fall out shelter (a nuclear bomb shelter)...that was a good cover story and a plausible one for taking materials down there to expand...it also would explain the food going down as he would have wanted it stocked in case of a bomb or crisis of some sort.
As far as the wife not knowing....maybe she just didnt care what he was doing as long as he wasnt bothering her....
 
wildTrose said:
I believe he ahd told authorities he was building a fall out shelter (a nuclear bomb shelter)...that was a good cover story and a plausible one for taking materials down there to expand...it also would explain the food going down as he would have wanted it stocked in case of a bomb or crisis of some sort.
As far as the wife not knowing....maybe she just didnt care what he was doing as long as he wasnt bothering her....
Click to expand...

I think that's the case, besides she was busy with the children and they reportedly had not had sex in years. They were married in name only by this time.
 
I agree with Carpe Diem in that Dennis Rader's wife was always instructed to stay away from the shed, which he had in his backyard. She followed his orders. The shed contained his souveniers from his victims. Dennis Rader was always a very stirct disciplinarian.

I am amazed that this guy didn't just take the child somewhere and let her die to keep his secret safe. I guess that after 24 years he thought that everyone would go along with his story, which Elisabeth did do at first.

I can see the wife not knowing and believing her husband. She was conditioned to listen to and believe her husband. It is an absolute tragedy for the entire family.

I hope that this family, especially the kids and Elisabeth, can recover their health and sanity. Prayers to them.
 
Austria cellar man 'mentally ill'



Josef Fritzl, the Austrian man accused of abusing his imprisoned daughter for 24 years, should not go to jail as he is mentally ill, his lawyer says. Rudolf Mayer says his client should be in a psychiatric unit rather than facing a trial, which will not be fair because of press coverage of the case.

snip
In my personal opinion, Josef Fritzl is mentally ill and therefore of diminished responsibility. I believe that my client does not belong in prison but in a secure psychiatric unit," Mr Mayer told the German newspaper Bild am Sonntag.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7382986.stm


Maybe they can find a windowless, small, underground, secure psychiatric unit for him :)
 
Josef Fritzl 'will plead insanity' to dodge prison


Josef Fritzl, the Austrian man who fathered seven children with his daughter while keeping her locked up in a subterranean dungeon as a sex slave for 24 years, will plead insanity to avoid a prison sentence.
Lawyers for Fritzl, 73, dubbed the Incest Monster by local media will argue that he was not responsible for his actions and will try to acquire a certificate of insanity for their client.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article3871049.ece
 
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