GUILTY Austria - Woman Held Captive, Had 7 Children by Father

[concernedperson]

I do not have a link for my own hypothetical surmises. The only facts that have been published in reference to parentage are the ones stating that DNA showed that all of the children had Josef the Monster as their father.
Nothing was stated as to the mother.
I am only surmising that Elizabeth at 37 might not have been able to bear a child, due to her advanced physical age.
I therefore surmised that Kirsten might have borne the last child, or possibly others.
My guess only.

Actually nothing would surprise me with this case. And, yes Elisabeth was aging rapidly. And seemingly becoming more withdrawn. Pregnancy with an ill equipped granddaughter and probably unhealthy to begin with would have a myriad of complications down the road.

One thing that stands out is Elisabeth had twins alone in that basement. The pain and risk are all too explainable but the fact of tears is another real possibility. I think you know where I am going with that.

If this man would rape his own daughter over and over then I can't believe he would eliminate his granddaughter as part of his prey.

 

[JBean]

I totally agree that it is possible for him to have raped the grandchildren. He has gone beyond the worst of the worst. I just know they have taken DNA samples to see if the mother or any other fmaily member have been in the prison and they have taken DNA samples from her *notes* to make sure she was the one that wrote them. So I was thinking they would have checked that too. Who knows maybe they did and they haven't released that info. Unfortunately i wouldn't be at all surprised. ugh.

 

[JBean]

Austria cellar probe 'oppressive'



Forensic work in the dungeon where an Austrian man allegedly held his daughter for 24 years is "oppressive", police chief Franz Polzer has said. Officers wearing special masks can only work one hour at a time because of the lack of oxygen in the windowless cellar, he told AP news agency.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7382156.stm

 

[concernedperson]

The lack of oxygen could cause retardation in young children and contribute to advanced aging in adults. It seems he was murdering them all slowly. This is the worst case involving brutality of so many I have seen since Duncan.

 

[JanetElaine]

Parentage....
Yes, we all know for certain that the monster fathered all the children....
but we do not know for certain that his daughter is the mother of all of them....especially the youngest.
It is also hypothetically possible that Kirsten fell ill due to a complication of pregnancy....I would not expect the authorities to reveal such an awful detail, if true....

I doubt that five years down the road... unless she might have gotten pregnant again... Other than that I have the same thought about the 5 year old as you do. I wish they would just come out and say they also checked to see if Elizabeth is the mother of all of them... so far they have only said Fritzl fathered all of them... and it is just assumed really that Elizabeth is the mother of all children.

 

[Annie]

This is an interesting article about the mother.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor.../Austria-The-horror-of-being-Frau-Fritzl.html

 

[JBean]

I doubt that five years down the road... unless she might have gotten pregnant again... Other than that I have the same thought about the 5 year old as you do. I wish they would just come out and say they also checked to see if Elizabeth is the mother of all of them... so far they have only said Fritzl fathered all of them... and it is just assumed really that Elizabeth is the mother of all children.

So you all don't think they would compared and tested for her DNA also? I would think that the authorities would have the very same concerns that NNY mentions and would have tested for it. As I said maybe they did and have not released results yet.

 

[JBean]

has anyone heard anything else about this:

>.
But Fritzl told police that the heavy steel door shutting the basement dungeon could open automatically if he were absent for a long period.
This would give an explanation as to how Elisabeth and the children survived while Fritzl went on holidays. The door is still being checked by police but if they were able to open the door from the inside, then Elisabeth may have been able to leave the dungeon for provisions.
But if this is the case, why didn't they escape? It is possible the years in the dungeon had disturbed Elisabeth so much she was too scared to escape. Also, Fritzl said he threatened the captors with gas if they tried to leave.<<

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/apr/30/austria.internationalcrime3

 

[philamena]

Former lodgers at the family house and school friends of Elisabeth have admitted that they heard she was being sexually abused and mistreated, yet none contacted police or social services either before or after she disappeared.

There is no excuse for not reporting this abusive slug.
Thinking about 'people' knowing that he was abusing Elisabeth and ignoring that fact makes me ill.

Doctors said the 24 years she spent underground had taken a terrible toll on her appearance and health.

She won't survive...how can she?
How many freakin people kidnap and continually rape their child?
Anyone know anything about the facility where the rapist/abuser/incestuous pig is being kept? Is he in solitary confinment?

 

[JanetElaine]

So you all don't think they would compared and tested for her DNA also? I would think that the authorities would have the very same concerns that NNY mentions and would have tested for it. As I said maybe they did and have not released results yet.

Like I said, I wish they would just come out and say so. They haven't said one way or another.

 

[reb]

a perfect example of 'kitty genovese' syndrome... no one wanted to 'get involved', or they didn't want to get kicked out of their precious apartment,.. whatever. they are just as sick, clueless and evil as fritzl himself.

 

[philamena]

a perfect example of 'kitty genovese' syndrome... no one wanted to 'get involved', or they didn't want to get kicked out of their precious apartment,.. whatever. they are just as sick, clueless and evil as fritzl himself.

Yes, they are reb.

 

[reb]

You guys just wait. Any minute now,, it's gonna come out that Mrs. Fritzl knew everything... she just didn't 'want to know'. There is absolutely no way in hell that Mrs. Fritzl 'had no idea' about any of this. Sorry,, I ain't buyin' it. Yes I understand how easily a young, naive girl can get into an abusive marriage with a tyrannical man and how it breaks her down to the point where she becomes mentally numb and stops questioning things....but COME ON. 24 YEARS?????? no no no no no no NO. NO way in hell she didn't know. This is probably one of the most extreme cases of denial in modern history (most well-known, anyway)... but really, when does denial end and being an accomplice, and taking responsibility, begin....???

So..... let me get this straight. In 1995, mr. monster extends the cellar, presumably to include 2 bedrooms. He carries ALL those cement blocks into the cellar, along with all the mother materials, does the ENTIRE build-out, all by himself.... and somehow does this at age 59, which woulod have taken weeks or months,, with hiw wife above & all those tenants in there.. and with no one suspecting a thing.........??? yeah right!!

Also, help me understand this: suddenly Mrs. Fritzl's daughter appears in the house after 24 yrs, with 2 children, all strangely pale and bent over, and what does he say to his wife? 'Hey guess what, they came back from the sect! It's a miracle!' and what does the wife say.. 'oh..... OK. whatever you say, Mein Fuhrer. And... hhhmmm... might this have anything to do with the mysterious basement downstairs that I HAVE NEVER SEEN, that you will not let anyone go near???? Well, gosh,, nevermind. I better not ask about that.'

Then again..... they WERE receiving $$ BENEFITS $$ from the Austrian govt. for the 3 above-ground kids. Kind of makes being 'in denial' a little easier,, doesn't it....???

 

[concernedperson]

You guys just wait. Any minute now,, it's gonna come out that Mrs. Fritzl knew everything... she just didn't 'want to know'. There is absolutely no way in hell that Mrs. Fritzl 'had no idea' about any of this. Sorry,, I ain't buyin' it. Yes I understand how easily a young, naive girl can get into an abusive marriage with a tyrannical man and how it breaks her down to the point where she becomes mentally numb and stops questioning things....but COME ON. 24 YEARS?????? no no no no no no NO. NO way in hell she didn't know. This is probably one of the most extreme cases of denial in modern history (most well-known, anyway)... but really, when does denial end and being an accomplice, and taking responsibility, begin....???

So..... let me get this straight. In 1995, mr. monster extends the cellar, presumably to include 2 bedrooms. He carries ALL those cement blocks into the cellar, along with all the mother materials, does the ENTIRE build-out, all by himself.... and somehow does this at age 59, which woulod have taken weeks or months,, with hiw wife above & all those tenants in there.. and with no one suspecting a thing.........??? yeah right!!

Also, help me understand this: suddenly Mrs. Fritzl's daughter appears in the house after 24 yrs, with 2 children, all strangely pale and bent over, and what does he say to his wife? 'Hey guess what, they came back from the sect! It's a miracle!' and what does the wife say.. 'oh..... OK. whatever you say, Mein Fuhrer. And... hhhmmm... might this have anything to do with the mysterious basement downstairs that I HAVE NEVER SEEN, that you will not let anyone go near???? Well, gosh,, nevermind. I better not ask about that.'

Then again..... they WERE receiving $$ BENEFITS $$ from the Austrian govt. for the 3 above-ground kids. Kind of makes being 'in denial' a little easier,, doesn't it....???

Good point and I can't disagree.

 

[reb]

from the guardian UK:

'Authorities have declined to comment on who tipped off the police, but an Austrian newspaper said it was a senior doctor at the hospital who sensed something strange about the family.'

thank god SOMEONE FINALLY had the sense to investigate what was going on... after DECADES of this pig's strange behavior, strange occurrences surrounding the family, his prior rape & arson records, JAIL time, the fact that he was a voyeur at a young age who exposed himself, AND a missing daughter, who it was known by MANY PEOPLE (apparently, it has now come out) they he RAPED and abused.. plus babies that just show up on the doorstep.... geez.. it took someone THAT long to finally look into things....????? he or she is a true hero, though. he/she could have just been another person to say 'well, it was odd.. but i don't wanna get involved...' (like the idiot tenants who heard and saw weird stuff but did not want to get kicked out and lose their precious apartments!!)

i also find it odd that elisabeth could be brought above ground for the first time in 24 years without freaking out or acting visibly traumatized (just by the light, if nothing else).. it's definitely an interesting example of the psychology of captivity.. how people give up after being controlled for so long. you'd think she would have made a run for it or said something to someone.... but it's not that simple.

i am glad the austrians are questioning their national identity and doing some serious soul-searching. they definitely need to. yes it could happen anywhere, and it does.... but it seems to have happened way too many times there, in recent years...

 

[reb]

(geez.. lots of typos tonight. that was supposed to read OTHER materials, not 'mother' materials.)

<<He carries ALL those cement blocks into the cellar, along with all the mother materials, does the ENTIRE build-out, all by himself>>

 

[reb]

i am also interested as to what developments will happen concerning mr. monster's mental state. will he have a breakdown now that his little fantasy world, his double life, has unravelled?? does he have any remorse or have the slightest clue that anything he's done is WRONG? or does he still feel totally justified.. just pissed at himself, for getting caught?
here is a picture-perfect TEXTBOOK example of a true SOCIOPATH. perfectly functional guy, seemingly normal, with a good job, nice home & family, people who know his say 'he seemed normal', etc... and yet,, the worst kind of sicko, in secret.
what is also unbelievable is how he could hold such a secret for so long without a slip of the tongue, or without breaking down under the pressure of holding the secret. for most people, harboring a shameful secret is too much work for them to hide for very long,, it drains them, and it's a relief when it's finally out. then again, that's what makes people sociopaths... they can lie so well and it doesn't seem to bother them.. the lies are seamlessly woven into the fabric of their daily life, and they have no sense of ethics concerning how their lies & manipulations affect people..

 

[Mr. E]

That doesn't prove who the mother is though. I have thought the same thing as NNY. The five year old comes quite a ways after the others (the next ones up are 12, 14, 15, 18, 19).

Oh, yes. My sleep-deprived mind (I have a 3-month old who is fussy) didn't get what was being said. Good idea. I wonder...I also wondered about the big age difference, but I am just a couple of years younger than Elisabeth, and my youngest and middle daughters are 12 years apart. I wouldn't be surprised to find out Felix is the oldest daughter's son, though.

 

[CarpeDiem]

You guys just wait. Any minute now,, it's gonna come out that Mrs. Fritzl knew everything... she just didn't 'want to know'. There is absolutely no way in hell that Mrs. Fritzl 'had no idea' about any of this. Sorry,, I ain't buyin' it. Yes I understand how easily a young, naive girl can get into an abusive marriage with a tyrannical man and how it breaks her down to the point where she becomes mentally numb and stops questioning things....but COME ON. 24 YEARS?????? no no no no no no NO. NO way in hell she didn't know. This is probably one of the most extreme cases of denial in modern history (most well-known, anyway)... but really, when does denial end and being an accomplice, and taking responsibility, begin....???

So..... let me get this straight. In 1995, mr. monster extends the cellar, presumably to include 2 bedrooms. He carries ALL those cement blocks into the cellar, along with all the mother materials, does the ENTIRE build-out, all by himself.... and somehow does this at age 59, which woulod have taken weeks or months,, with hiw wife above & all those tenants in there.. and with no one suspecting a thing.........??? yeah right!!

Also, help me understand this: suddenly Mrs. Fritzl's daughter appears in the house after 24 yrs, with 2 children, all strangely pale and bent over, and what does he say to his wife? 'Hey guess what, they came back from the sect! It's a miracle!' and what does the wife say.. 'oh..... OK. whatever you say, Mein Fuhrer. And... hhhmmm... might this have anything to do with the mysterious basement downstairs that I HAVE NEVER SEEN, that you will not let anyone go near???? Well, gosh,, nevermind. I better not ask about that.'

Then again..... they WERE receiving $$ BENEFITS $$ from the Austrian govt. for the 3 above-ground kids. Kind of makes being 'in denial' a little easier,, doesn't it....???

The crimes of Dennis Radar (BTK) went on for 30 years before he was stopped. His wife never knew either.

 

[JanetElaine]

Oh, yes. My sleep-deprived mind (I have a 3-month old who is fussy) didn't get what was being said. Good idea. I wonder...I also wondered about the big age difference, but I am just a couple of years younger than Elisabeth, and my youngest and middle daughters are 12 years apart. I wouldn't be surprised to find out Felix is the oldest daughter's son, though.

Heh. Well it is definitely possible (my two will be 10 years apart) but still makes one wonder... especially since they haven't said 'DNA tests also proved that Elizabeth is the mother of all children' or something like that, KWIM? I sure hope this isn't the case though (Kerstin being the 5 yr. old's mother). It's horrific enough as it is....