GUILTY Austria - Woman Held Captive, Had 7 Children by Father

[JBean]

I don't know; and I don't know if it matters. Stockholm Syndrome is more than just a great band (they are a great band, and are also good friends of mine). You asked earlier in the thread if he was in love with his daughter. That is irrelevant, in my opinion. He captured and held his own child and her children prisoner in an underground torture chamber for twenty-four years. That is not love, by anyone's definition. Whatever the children may have felt about the only human being they were ever allowed to see, the fact remains that they were prisoners. Regardless of whether they loved this alien who brought them food and raped their mother and them even, their whole perspective was intentionally skewed and horribly distorted by the man who held them captive. Elisabeth wanted to be promised that she would never see her father again. That is good enough for me.

Much of the info leads me to believe that he was in love with her in his own very sick way and loved his cellar family. Obviously it's not healthy, good, or true love, but still another piece of the puzzle that is very relevant to the whole mess. What I am trying understand is what was in his mind.

I asked about the children because I wonder if they are having trouble being separated from one of the few people in the world that they knew. Obviously they are better off without him, but kids especially kids raised under these conditions might not understand that...yet. Understanding their feelings towards him can help in the separation and treatment of these poor children.

 

[philamena]

Truly,
I loveeeeee reading your post.

 

[LinasK]

I know there are times to protect a child's image of a parent after a divorce, etc. These kids, imo, deserve the truth. There is nothing right or good about the man who imprisoned them against the sunlight and against every joy which every woman or child has the absolute right to experience. I do admire Elisabeth for her resilience in the face of her fathers diabolical actions. I do not think she or her children owe him any kind of niceties, or any pretending that he is their daddy. He is their mother's torturer and rapist. That is all he is. I do wonder when his soul died, it is sad...but he is the one who killed everything good in his life. He dug his own grave. Now let him lie in it. And let the children go on without ever so much as another moment's interference by him in their lives.

Once again I agree with you. They are no "extension" of this monster. He committed incest, rape, and torture. :furious:Just because they share his genes does not mean they will turn out with his personality!

 

[mysteriew]

I agree with JBean. The children who were imprisoned knew two adults. Only two. They had their own feelings about that adult. Those feelings might be good or bad. If they felt love for him, then to tell them their feelings are wrong is destructive.

They are out in the open now. They are seeing what they missed. I don't think anyone should lie to them about why they were imprisoned but now free, but most likely they will have to give that explanation gradually. And at the same time I don't think the kids should be shamed for what they feel. As they get used to their freedom, their feelings about him will probably change, but it shouldn't be pressured, they should come to that on their own.

 

[Floh]

Josef Fritzl could be charged with murder over death of newborn

The Austrian will appear in a closed court hearing today, in the presence of his lawyer, the prosecutor and the judge, who is expected to extend his remand custody for one month.

Mr Fritzl could be kept for up to two years without charges if the investigation continues, provided his remand custody is regularly extended by the court. Police believe that the investigation is expected to take another six months.
Austrian prosecutors now say that it is “increasingly likely” that Mr Fritzl would face charges of manslaughter or "murder out of negligence" for failing to provide medical attention for the newborn that died in the cellar where he imprisoned his family.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article3900355.ece

The certainly should charge him with murder, IMO. amongst many other things.

 

[golfmom]

Interview where he claims he had to SAVE her because she was a terrible child who ran away and went to bars ... so, obviously, it was her own fault that he imprisoned her. :furious:

http://news.scotsman.com/latestnews/Josef-Fritzl-In-his-own.4066900.jp

Man who had seven children with captive daughter speaks out
THE twisted mind of Josef Fritzl has been laid bare in a prison interview in which he defends the 24-year imprisonment and rape of his daughter Elisabeth.

Fritzl maintains he acted out of love in imprisoning Elisabeth when she was 18 and keeping her in his cellar dungeon, where she was tortured and raped, giving birth to seven children.

 

[kuriouskate]

I agree with JBean. The children who were imprisoned knew two adults. Only two. They had their own feelings about that adult. Those feelings might be good or bad. If they felt love for him, then to tell them their feelings are wrong is destructive.

They are out in the open now. They are seeing what they missed. I don't think anyone should lie to them about why they were imprisoned but now free, but most likely they will have to give that explanation gradually. And at the same time I don't think the kids should be shamed for what they feel. As they get used to their freedom, their feelings about him will probably change, but it shouldn't be pressured, they should come to that on their own.

I agree with this! Getting into the childrens' heads and hearts will certainly provide more guidance into the next step of intervention towards the healing path! Parents are huge god like prominent roles in children's worlds whether they are horrific or not. And not only that attachment albeit unhealthy is stronger where there is trauma. How children process is not like adults by any means. It's a fragile road to walk to not do any more damage. Good post.

 

[believe09]

i just want to revisit the fact that he continually threatened them with extermination by poison gas if they made noise or tried to escape, and the children who were brought into the light and adopted by him were the ones who were not crybabies. In this way, he had total complete control, as if he were God, and that was his kick. In his current interviews, he is tacitly blaming Elisabeth for being a "behavior" issue-clearly this is why he raped her repeatedly starting at 11?

What happened was he was both afraid that when she became a woman she would "tell" and that he knew he had the perfect victim in her...he is beyond monsterous, and he is also blaming his mother for kicking out his father when he was 4 and being a strong woman.

He is the sperm donor to his children, but as for parent, I would categorize him more as a prison camp commandant who had no rules that applied to him- I would make this charecterization regardless of his cultural background but the fact that he is from Austria and was 10- around the time of WWII makes it all the more curious as to how he decided to construct this fantasy world.

JMO

 

[kuriouskate]

i just want to revisit the fact that he continually threatened them with extermination by poison gas if they made noise or tried to escape, and the children who were brought into the light and adopted by him were the ones who were not crybabies. In this way, he had total complete control, as if he were God, and that was his kick. In his current interviews, he is tacitly blaming Elisabeth for being a "behavior" issue-clearly this is why he raped her repeatedly starting at 11?

What happened was he was both afraid that when she became a woman she would "tell" and that he knew he had the perfect victim in her...he is beyond monsterous, and he is also blaming his mother for kicking out his father when he was 4 and being a strong woman.

He is the sperm donor to his children, but as for parent, I would categorize him more as a prison camp commandant who had no rules that applied to him- I would make this charecterization regardless of his cultural background but the fact that he is from Austria and was 10- around the time of WWII makes it all the more curious as to how he decided to construct this fantasy world.

JMO

No he wasn't a "parent" by any means! I agree.

 

[nanandjim]

I bet that this guy raped his other daughters. If he didn't, it is because they were totally under his control and did not rebel in any way. Elisabeth, OTOH, rebeled in some way. The rape was a power thing for him. He probably did starting raping her at 11 years old. She continued to rebel. He then showed her who had total control. He built a prison and housed her in it. Eventually, she totally submitted to him. However, it was just an act. She won in the end. Thank God. He trusted her so much that he finally let her out to see her daughter. What a nightmare for Elisabeth and the cellar children. Sad, sad, sad. This guy is pure evil. He deserves the severest of punishments.

 

[Vegas Bride]

The evil one has to be in control with everything in his world, so what is he going to do now that he's lost it? I would not be surprised if we hear he's killed himself, it's the only thing now he could control.

VB

 

[nanandjim]

The evil one has to be in control with everything in his world, so what is he going to do now that he's lost it? I would not be surprised if we hear he's killed himself, it's the only thing now he could control.

VB

Nope. He loves himself too much to ever kill himself, IMO.

 

[shana]

I agree with JBean. The children who were imprisoned knew two adults. Only two. They had their own feelings about that adult. Those feelings might be good or bad. If they felt love for him, then to tell them their feelings are wrong is destructive.

They are out in the open now. They are seeing what they missed. I don't think anyone should lie to them about why they were imprisoned but now free, but most likely they will have to give that explanation gradually. And at the same time I don't think the kids should be shamed for what they feel. As they get used to their freedom, their feelings about him will probably change, but it shouldn't be pressured, they should come to that on their own.

Excellent and insightful post!

I would hope that each child is treated individually in terms of when and how much is disclosed to him/her, with questions answered as they are asked.

I had read in an article some days ago that the 'upstairs children' were told only so much. It will take time for them too to reconcile their feelings about their father(/grandfather) and they may not all progress at the same pace. Also as we have seen in some cases of a spouse murdering the other, the children may side with one or the other parent and remain divided even after the trial.

 

[Floh]

Nope. He loves himself too much to ever kill himself, IMO.

I agree.

on the plus side, i hope he is incarcerated for the rest of his miserable life.

 

[mysteriew]

I bet that this guy raped his other daughters. If he didn't, it is because they were totally under his control and did not rebel in any way. Elisabeth, OTOH, rebeled in some way. The rape was a power thing for him. He probably did starting raping her at 11 years old. She continued to rebel. He then showed her who had total control. He built a prison and housed her in it. Eventually, she totally submitted to him. However, it was just an act. She won in the end. Thank God. He trusted her so much that he finally let her out to see her daughter. What a nightmare for Elisabeth and the cellar children. Sad, sad, sad. This guy is pure evil. He deserves the severest of punishments.

I read somewhere that Elisabeth was quiet and shy when she was young. Yes, when she got older she tried to escape, but her siblings eventually got out of the house- but for some reason he wouldn't let her go. When she ran and was brought back, I wonder if she even told anyone why she was running? I think he chose Elisabeth because she was the most vulnerable, the one who was the most defenseless, the one he had the most control over. The one who was the least risk for him.

Saying that she was rebellious is just his way of trying to excuse his own monstrous acts.

 

[Niner]

Hi all - I'm almost caught up in reading all of this thread - only 3 more pages to go!! But I wanted to post a few comments after reading some of the articles that you all have posted. Excuse me IF these have already been stated!! :crazy:

You all were discussing whether the statement in one of the articles implys that Fritzl is the father of the 5 year old Felix - according to this statement:

The picture was taken seven years ago at vile Fritzl's favorite restaurant... in Linz. By this time he had already kept daughter Elisabeth imprisoned as a sex slave for 17 years beneath his house in Amstetten. He had also fathered six of seven children by her after repeated rapes.

I believe that is stating that by that time - 17 years beneath his house - he had fathered 6 of Elisabeth's children... NOT including Felix yet! Don't ya think?? As Felix wasn't born yet... this is from the link:
http://www.newsoftheworld.co.uk/0405_fritzl.shtml

also from the above article:

Austrian cops have reopened the inquiry into the murder of 17-year-old Anna Neumayr in 1966 and want to see if DNA links Fritzl to the crime.

 

[Niner]

and in this article from link:
http://newsvote.bbc.co.uk/mpapps/pagetools/print/news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7373172.stm

They believe the underground dungeon was originally one room, equipped only with washing facilities, which was gradually enlarged over the years. It is thought Mr Fritzl may also have expanded under the house's garden.

so it does sound like the underground part WAS under the garden AND the house!

 

[Niner]

Also I noticed the mention of WHEN Lisa was brought up from the cellar - in this article:

http://www.spiegel.de/internationa/europe/0,1518,druck-551451,00.html

it says:

It was May 19, 1993, and it was the happiest day in the life of little Lisa Fritzl because it was the first time she had ever seen the light of day. She had been born almost nine months earlier.

Also in the same article - it looks like Elisabeth named the dead twin - Michael.

 

[Niner]

okay one more comment!! LOL!

I would say - according to this article Fritzl is NOT mentally insane...

Speaking to the Times at a press conference yesterday, Colonel Franz Polzer said that Mr Fritzl had planned the imprisiong and sexual abuse of Elisabeth in astonishing detail
"Firtzl acted with premeditation when he began building the underground cellar of his home in 1978", he said. "We assume he had already selected his daughter Elisabeth, who was to become a prisoner of the concrete dungeon."

 

[Niner]

snip...
so this seems like a GOOD thing (the regret that is ever-so-slowly dawning on him).. and yet, bad for his defense... because in showing an understanding that what he did may have actually been wrong.... well, there goes his insanity defense.

YES!! His defense is crumbling... he DOES understand WHAT he did was WRONG!!!! :furious: