Autopsy

[rwesafe]

Exactly my concern. Clearly a homicide, clearly what caused her death has been determined, but the means of being only "likely" causes me angst. And again, if BC is not a POI or been named a suspect or anyone else for that matter....how can they say with a 100% degree of confidence that this was not a random act? I find that a bit disturbing.

 

[raisincharlie]

Thank you both. So if she died of asphyxia, that means she was murdered?

The fracture to the hyoid bone suggests that someone applied pressure to her throat, thus cutting off her means of obtaining air. This is the implication obtained from the fracture and the apprent faint mark on her neck in the area of the frontal neck.

 

[raisincharlie]

Exactly my concern. Clearly a homicide, clearly what caused her death has been determined, but the means of being only "likely" causes me angst. And again, if BC is not a POI or been named a suspect or anyone else for that matter....how can they say with a 100% degree of confidence that this was not a random act? I find that a bit disturbing.

The defnition of a random act is not determined by COD alone. In this case if you watch the July 14th presser somewhere about 11 minutes in, Chief Bazemore gives LE's reasons for this not being a random crime. Hope I have the right presser, I'm not inclined to sit through them all again to note ths time.

LE gave reasons - one of which was no one other than Brad saw Nancy on the morning she disappeared - no one.

 

[jmflu]

The fracture to the hyoid bone suggests that someone applied pressure to her throat, thus cutting off her means of obtaining air. This is the implication obtained from the fracture and the apprent faint mark on her neck in the area of the frontal neck.

Right, I remember reading that, but if they are not 100% sure that this was the cause, what else could it be??

 

[SleuthyGal]

Thank you both. So if she died of asphyxia, that means she was murdered?

If the asphyxia was caused by someone else (which in this case it was) then yes, she was murdered. She didn't asphyxiate herself and it wasn't an accident. The fractured hyoid bone is tell-tale.

 

[SleuthyGal]

Right, I remember reading that, but if they are not 100% sure that this was the cause, what else could it be??

Pillow over the face in combination with something up against her throat is one such possibility.

 

[rwesafe]

Well, I admit that I am not the queen of logic, but I don't see how the fact that thus far, BC being the last person to see her alive (allegedly), that makes the crime "not random".

 

[jmflu]

The defnition of a random act is not determined by COD alone. In this case if you watch the July 14th presser somewhere about 11 minutes in, Chief Bazemore gives LE's reasons for this not being a random crime. Hope I have the right presser, I'm not inclined to sit through them all again to note ths time.

LE gave reasons - one of which was no one other than Brad saw Nancy on the morning she disappeared - no one.

Either I read this somewhere recently, or I dreamt I read it, but I remember reading something about a police officer telling someone down at the station something about the chief just telling people it was safe so as not to cause panic. Maybe it was on GOLO, but it was more of a factual "this is what happened" kind of story being related to us rather than a snarky comment that "this is probably the way it was." Does anyone remember seeing this?

 

[jmflu]

Pillow over the face in combination with something up against her throat is one such possibility.

That's still strangulation, though, isn't it?

 

[raisincharlie]

Right, I remember reading that, but if they are not 100% sure that this was the cause, what else could it be??

Picture someone holding a person down by the neck and placing a pillow over ther face. There will be pressure to the hyoid bone and air will be cut off by the pillow - which may have killed the person first ? In this case, there was evidence of manual force as evidenced by the fracture. The advanced state of decomp and the blackening of the skin may have hid bruising to a degree it could not be seen. The strap muscles show a darkening but no hemorage - the darkening supports manual force.

 

[jmflu]

Picture someone holding a person down by the neck and placing a pillow over ther face. There will be pressure to the hyoid bone and air will be cut off by the pillow - which may have killed the person first ? In this case, there was evidence of manual force as evidenced by the fracture. The advanced state of decomp and the blackening of the skin may have hid bruising to a degree it could not be seen. The strap muscles show a darkening but no hemorage - the darkening supports manual force.

Right, but that's still strangulation, isn't it?

 

[raisincharlie]

Well, I admit that I am not the queen of logic, but I don't see how the fact that thus far, BC being the last person to see her alive (allegedly), that makes the crime "not random".

That was one reason - watch the presser the Chief explains it - more than one reason. So no one seeing her does nothing to influence you that maybe no one saw her because she simply was not out and about combined with the other reasons the Chief gives ? The probable cause section of the search warrant for the house denoting the observations made and the condition of the house gives you no pause to think she never left her house that morning ? There are many layers, not just one.

 

[raisincharlie]

Either I read this somewhere recently, or I dreamt I read it, but I remember reading something about a police officer telling someone down at the station something about the chief just telling people it was safe so as not to cause panic. Maybe it was on GOLO, but it was more of a factual "this is what happened" kind of story being related to us rather than a snarky comment that "this is probably the way it was." Does anyone remember seeing this?

That was Hiller's comment - after the good cop bad cop episode.

 

[SleuthyGal]

Right, but that's still strangulation, isn't it?

Depends which action caused death first: air cut off from a pillow over the face (asphyxia via mouth & nose blocked) or the pressure on the throat (strangulation)? Sometimes it cannot be easily determined. But a pillow pressed against your face and a fractured hyoid bone--well that is a homicide (unlawful death on purpose by someone else).

And if you notice they were able to determine the hyoid bone was definitely fractured so they KNOW some kind of manual force was against her throat.

 

[jmflu]

That was Hiller's comment - after the good cop bad cop episode.

Oh, thank goodness... thanks, RC!!

I remember thinking that was not a very professional thing to tell a possible suspect. And if he (the officer) didn't say it, can MH be called on it?

 

[jmflu]

Depends which action caused death first: air cut off from a pillow over the face (asphyxia via mouth & nose blocked) or the pressure on the throat (strangulation)? Sometimes it cannot be easily determined. But a pillow pressed against your face and a fractured hyoid bone--well that is a homicide (unlawful death on purpose by someone else).

And if you notice they were able to determine the hyoid bone was definitely fractured so they KNOW some kind of manual force was against her throat.

Oh, ok... so she was strangled, or smothered to death, one of the two is what they are saying.

 

[SleuthyGal]

Oh, ok... so she was strangled, or smothered to death, one of the two is what they are saying.

No. They are saying 'likely strangled.' They said nothing about smothering.

 

[jmflu]

No. They are saying 'likely strangled.' They said nothing about smothering.

Oh. I thought pressing a pillow over someone's face to stop them breathing was smothering?

 

[rwesafe]

That was one reason - watch the presser the Chief explains it - more than one reason. So no one seeing her does nothing to influence you that maybe no one saw her because she simply was not out and about combined with the other reasons the Chief gives ? The probable cause section of the search warrant for the house denoting the observations made and the condition of the house gives you no pause to think she never left her house that morning ? There are many layers, not just one.

Sure, it is a possibility, but there is also a possibility that someone did see her and just did not realize it was her. I see joggers in my area all the time, that does not mean if they went missing or I saw a picture of them that I would recognize them. Most days, when hubby is on travel, the only person I see at the end of each day is my mom. If I went missing and she cleaned my house while I was gone and she was the last one to see me, does that mean she killed me and cleaned up the evidence? No. It just means she was the last person who actually recognizes me who saw me last. I am sure that there are countless women who have left their husband at home, unnoticed by others, to run an errand, go running...whatever and have been the victim of a random killer. Just not a convincing argument for "he definitely did it".

 

[raisincharlie]

Sure, it is a possibility, but there is also a possibility that someone did see her and just did not realize it was her. I see joggers in my area all the time, that does not mean if they went missing or I saw a picture of them that I would recognize them. Most days, when hubby is on travel, the only person I see at the end of each day is my mom. If I went missing and she cleaned my house while I was gone and she was the last one to see me, does that mean she killed me and cleaned up the evidence? No. It just means she was the last person who actually recognizes me who saw me last. I am sure that there are countless women who have left their husband at home, unnoticed by others, to run an errand, go running...whatever and have been the victim of a random killer. Just not a convincing argument for "he definitely did it".

If you prefer to stick with one aspect of the definition, then true enough that it is not a convincing argument. But if you stick to only looking at one aspect, you are also fooling yourself. There are a significant number of facts in the press conferences, search warrant affidavits, and other legal docs if one cares to look.