Autopsy

[mahmoo]

I have a right to my opinion as well.

I believe in Karma too as well as your quoted statement :blowkiss:

Now....back to the autopsy

Hope ya'll didn't discuss this already and I missed it but........the pink nail clipping collected during the search of the house and the autopsy notation of pink nail polish on the toes (none noted on the fingers).....my mind keeps wondering if one of NC's toenails got torn/ripped during a struggle and was bleeding all over the place Could be one of the reasons BC needed cleaning supplies.

Are there more notes from the autopsy that haven't been made public yet? I'm seriously hoping there was some dried blood/tissue under NC's fingernails.......wish we could read the results from the scraping. Whether she was attacked from the front or back....she would still have had the chance to grab at the fingers around her neck........hope she grabbed deep and hard.

 

[raisincharlie]

She announces in the presser on the 15th that the case in "now declared a homicide", so how would she have listed any reasons that it was a random act of violence on the 14th if it was not deemed a true homicide until the 15th?

If my opinion is that a person is innocent until proven guilty then it has as much right to application as your interpretation of the so called "facts".

The body was found on the 14th. And I will take LE's presentation of explanations and affidavits as fact as I respect their expertise and see no reason to believe they are doing anything other than the best they can.

So show me a fact - show me a search warrant for someone other than BC, anything that proves he is not involved.

 

[rwesafe]

Can we please continue just the autopsy discussion on this thread? Pretty please? There's a shiny new thread just waiting for all those good discussions and debates on the matter of BC's presumption of innocence or why he's not the perp, or what have you.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=72398

Yes, and I apologize for straying.....

I did a google search for broken hyoids due to strangulation....most of what I read indicates that there is much more damage to the tissue that what is indicated in the autopsy report. Everything is listed as slight, subtle and likely....and I am still baffled by 1.3" faint mark on the neck. For a violent act, you would just expect to see more markings, more defensive wounds, especially from a woman as physically fit as NC....I don't know, it is indeed puzzling.

 

[SleuthyGal]

most of what I read indicates that there is much more damage to the tissue that what is indicated in the autopsy report.

Did what you read say anything about the level of decomposition in those corpses? I would imagine there is a correlation between how much decomp vs. how obvious/clear the signs of strangulation might be.

 

[rwesafe]

The body was found on the 14th. And I will take LE's presentation of explanations and affidavits as fact as I respect their expertise and see no reason to believe they are doing anything other than the best they can.

So show me a fact - show me a search warrant for someone other than BC, anything that proves he is not involved.

You show me a fact that proves beyond a reasonable doubt that he was involved.

I too believe they are doing the very best they can. I also agree as per the article, the body was discovered on the 14th and on the 15th it was declared a homicide.

 

[rwesafe]

Did what you read say anything about the level of decomposition in those corpses? I would imagine there is a correlation between how much decomp vs. how obvious/clear the signs of strangulation might be.

Yes, I did. The article that I read, and I will try to find it and link it, said that when advanced decomposition is an issue that the severity of the tissue damage in the area was the determining factor. I suspect that the lack of tissue damage was the reason it was deemed "likely".

 

[mahmoo]

Good point SG......what I took from the autopsy was that NC had been in a fast state of decomposition and that the insects had taken quite a toll on her body as well.

I'm no expert by any means but if her body had been found much sooner more marks around her neck would have been visible.....I believe the autopsy report stated that insects had destroyed a large portion of the neck area.

The hyoid is just below and center of the jaw......it's not that easy of a bone to break. She wasn't strangled around the adams apple area.....it was just a bit higher than that.

 

[SleuthyGal]

For me there is absolutely NO DOUBT that she was murdered. She did not asphyxiate or strangle herself. The fact that the underlying neck tissue or strap muscles aren't showing an extreme level of damage or bruising or that there aren't red fingerprints or an ear-to-ear ligature wound around her neck does not in any way lead me to believe that her death was anything but an intention to murder her.

And it does not lead me to conclude that the murder is now a 'random' one.

I believe what LE is saying and there is nothing in the autopsy that I've seen so far that conflicts with the basic facts of the case.

And IMHO she did not walk or run to that spot she was found--that was a dump site and I think we'll come to find that there is no evidence to indicate she was killed in that spot.

 

[SleuthyGal]

As for the level of decomposition, which was fairly advanced, I believe it points to a TOD (at least in my mind) that is EARLIER on Saturday than later. Why? Because there was more decomp, more bugs, a lot of damage from the bugs (i.e. the bugs had more time to do their work), she was already bloated, skin was sloughing off. Weather of course plays a huge part here, but it's common sense that an additional 5 or 6 hours of exposure would allow more insect activity, etc.

 

[raisincharlie]

You show me a fact that proves beyond a reasonable doubt that he was involved.

I too believe they are doing the very best they can. I also agree as per the article, the body was discovered on the 14th and on the 15th it was declared a homicide.

Too funny :crazy:

 

[rwesafe]

Good point SG......what I took from the autopsy was that NC had been in a fast state of decomposition and that the insects had taken quite a toll on her body as well.

I'm no expert by any means but if her body had been found much sooner more marks around her neck would have been visible.....I believe the autopsy report stated that insects had destroyed a large portion of the neck area.

The hyoid is just below and center of the jaw......it's not that easy of a bone to break. She wasn't strangled around the adams apple area.....it was just a bit higher than that.

I think it said, I would have to read again, that the left side of her face was largely decomposed. They hyoid is not an easy bone to break, but people with Crohns disease normally take prednisone to control intestinal inflammation and long term use of prednisone thins the bones....but there is not indication or information that suggests her Crohns required steroidal treatment....but it is a possibility...

 

[rwesafe]

Too funny :crazy:

What is funny about a homicide?

 

[SleuthyGal]

I think it said, I would have to read again, that the left side of her face was largely decomposed. They hyoid is not an easy bone to break, but people with Crohns disease normally take prednisone to control intestinal inflammation and long term use of prednisone thins the bones....but there is not indication or information that suggests her Crohns required steroidal treatment....but it is a possibility...

So do you think it's a possibility her hyoid bone just happened to break on it's own or from some innocent explanation or that it thinned-out due to possible steroid treatment and again, broke, but it wasn't from a homicide? (please say 'no!')

Do you doubt the ME's assertion that Nancy's death was the result of a homicide?

 

[momto3kids]

....and I am still baffled by 1.3" faint mark on the neck.

rwesafe...this is my post from 2 days ago. It has photo's in the book which I can't load, but here is a small description to maybe better explain the mark. Basically from reading this chapter the book is stating...she was attacked from behind, head jerked back with only her trachea elevated to make the mark much less in length.


I just pulled out my daughters book"BODIES of EVIDENCE" by Brian Innes, chapter is 'Breath of Life.'

Congestion, cyanosis and petechiae will develop if the pressure is maintained for more than 15 seconds. A strip of soft fabric is likely to leave a relatively faint and undefined mark; a broad cloth, such as a scarf or towel, can leave one or more narrow marks. If the killer has attacked from behind, the mark will be only across the front of the throat.

 

[raisincharlie]

rwesafe...this is my post from 2 days ago. It has photo's in the book which I can't load, but here is a small description to maybe better explain the mark. Basically from reading this chapter the book is stating...she was attacked from behind, head jerked back with only her trachea elevated to make the mark much less in length.


I just pulled out my daughters book"BODIES of EVIDENCE" by Brian Innes, chapter is 'Breath of Life.'

Congestion, cyanosis and petechiae will develop if the pressure is maintained for more than 15 seconds. A strip of soft fabric is likely to leave a relatively faint and undefined mark; a broad cloth, such as a scarf or towel, can leave one or more narrow marks. If the killer has attacked from behind, the mark will be only across the front of the throat.

Might be a reason why LE collected the piece of childs clothing.

 

[rwesafe]

So do you think it's a possibility her hyoid bone just happened to break on it's own or from some innocent explanation or that it thinned-out due to possible steroid treatment and again, broke, but it wasn't from a homicide? (please say 'no!')

Do you doubt the ME's assertion that Nancy's death was the result of a homicide?

No, as I stated before, I do believe it was a homicide.

 

[mahmoo]

rwesafe...this is my post from 2 days ago. It has photo's in the book which I can't load, but here is a small description to maybe better explain the mark. Basically from reading this chapter the book is stating...she was attacked from behind, head jerked back with only her trachea elevated to make the mark much less in length.


I just pulled out my daughters book"BODIES of EVIDENCE" by Brian Innes, chapter is 'Breath of Life.'

Congestion, cyanosis and petechiae will develop if the pressure is maintained for more than 15 seconds. A strip of soft fabric is likely to leave a relatively faint and undefined mark; a broad cloth, such as a scarf or towel, can leave one or more narrow marks. If the killer has attacked from behind, the mark will be only across the front of the throat.

Yes.....to suffocate.....I don't know if a scarf strangulation could break the hyoid though......I believe it is a pliable bone....not easy to break.....a scarf could cut off oxygen but i'm not sure about breaking a bone.

 

[rwesafe]

rwesafe...this is my post from 2 days ago. It has photo's in the book which I can't load, but here is a small description to maybe better explain the mark. Basically from reading this chapter the book is stating...she was attacked from behind, head jerked back with only her trachea elevated to make the mark much less in length.


I just pulled out my daughters book"BODIES of EVIDENCE" by Brian Innes, chapter is 'Breath of Life.'

Congestion, cyanosis and petechiae will develop if the pressure is maintained for more than 15 seconds. A strip of soft fabric is likely to leave a relatively faint and undefined mark; a broad cloth, such as a scarf or towel, can leave one or more narrow marks. If the killer has attacked from behind, the mark will be only across the front of the throat.

Yes, I did read this post and yet I am still baffled because the autopsy report indicates signs of what might be petechiae and minimal congestion....

It is just still difficult for me to believe that even if attacked from behind, someone with her fitness level would not have fought her attacker like a mad woman.....it almost seems as if the act was committed by someone she trusted....

 

[SleuthyGal]

It is just still difficult for me to believe that even if attacked from behind, someone with her fitness level would not have fought her attacker like a mad woman.....it almost seems as if the act was committed by someone she trusted....

He could have taken her completely by surprise or at a time when she was less able to fight back--we don't know the details and I doubt he's going to tell us. Remember that the detectives DID note he had small red scratches on the back of his neck when they interviewed him on the afternoon of 7/12. It's possible she tried to fight back.

 

[rwesafe]

He could have taken her completely by surprise or at a time when she was less able to fight back--we don't know the details and I doubt he's going to tell us. Remember that the detectives DID note he had small red scratches on the back of his neck when they interviewed him on the afternoon of 7/12. It's possible she tried to fight back.

True. But adrenaline only takes seconds to kick in and to be attacked from behind you would most assuredly have to be standing up. The first reaction when someone puts something around your neck is to grab at what is at your neck at which point I would suspect that would have left deep scratch marks on her own neck. And of course, that maybe the case, we have yet to hear of any DNA that was found from her fingernails....