Autopsy

[longtimelurker]

I have been reading these posts from the very beginning. As I have a medical background I feel compelled to comment on the autopsy. From my reading I would say that the pathologist felt that NC was strangled probably with some sort of “ ligature.” In these cases it take 10-15 seconds for a person to become unconscious, very little time to fight back! If the ligature was something from the home( not the sports bra) then forensic testing can be performed on the ligature and DNA from the victim may be found, see below(11/14 cases) . If the bra was used this will not be helpful. If the item is something that would not normally have human skin on it and it was found in the home this would be very strong evidence that the strangulation occurred in the home. Although forensic pathology texts say that the fracture of the hyoid bone is uncommon or rare in strangulations there are a number of reports in medical literature stating that the fracture of the hyoid bond is common in ligature strangulation. The victims of this type of strangulation most often evacuate urine and feces. The autopsy said the bladder was empty but did not mention fecal staining on the buttocks or legs, perhaps because this area was too decomposed . There has been at least one case where DNA of the assailant was found under the fingernails of the victim who was strangled. However if NC was caught by surprise, ie assailant was behind her and caught her quickly in the neck with a ligature, she may not have been able to get her fingernails into the assailants skin.

In hanging and ligature strangulation, the noose mostly causes a mark or groove which is formed partly by compression of the skin and partly by abrasion with loss of the upper epidermal layers. The horny scales abraded from the neck may be transferred to the strangulation device or to the interposed textiles where they are sometimes visible at stereomicroscopic examination or even to the naked eye as silver–grey particles. The morphologic features of the epidermal transfer due to hanging and ligature strangulation is demonstrated by 14 case examples. The biological traces may be sufficient for comparative DNA typing by means of PCR-based methods. In 9 out of the 14 cases, genomic DNA typing was successful. Analysis of mtDNA succeeded in another two cases, although genomic DNA could not be detected. Beside the accumulation of solid epidermic particles the paper describes deposition of serous and fatty tissue fluid at the ligature (mainly adjacent to skin ridges).Forensic Science International
Volumes116, Issues 2-3, 15 February 2001, pages 107-115

So I expect they are a. trying to determine what was used as ligature, if it was not the sports bra, they may be looking for Nancy’s DNA on that, they obviously are looking for
the assailants DNA under her fingernails, evidence of feces/urine in the house/car etc
Another interesting note is that the mud was on the medial aspect of the left leg. Meaning if she was dragged that the inside of the left leg was what got dragged through the mud.

Unfortunately due to the weather, decomposition, time and insect infestation there may have been more evidence or forensic clues that had been there but were not able to be determined by the time the body was found and the autopsy performed.




LL

 

[ncnative]

Thanks, Longtime. Welcome.

I keep thinking about BC saying that he cleaned the wood floors with vinegar and water. Was he concerned that they would find evidence of vinegar on the floors, from his cleaning? Vinegar could be used to neutralize bases, such as chlorine bleach. Vinegar works well to remove the chlorine bleach feel (slick and slimy) from the hands, as well as to help neutralize the odor. (The old acid/base thing from high school chemistry class).

Why would he mention that he used a vinegar and water rinse on the floors anyway? Plus, that would smell awful in the home. There are too many other things to clean a floor that don't stink, like soapy water. Their wood floors aren't old and in disrepair, with a home of that age. You can see the photos of the foyer floor in the photo of Nancy being silly, with her keys in one hand, wearing the flip flops...shiny,clean looking floor.

What else could he have needed vinegar for? Some people use it for animal urine stains/odor. Would he have used it for urine stains? Don't know. There are too many specialized products for that purpose. And again, vinegar stinks.

I keep thinking about why he had to mention that he used a vinegar and water mixture to clean the wood floors. I will try to find where he stated that.

 

[ncnative]

OK. Here's the mention of vinegar and water rinse on the wood floors, by Brad:

Item #13 in Brad Cooper's amended rebuttal

http://www.wral.com/asset/news/local...rad_Cooper.pdf

If that link doesn't work, look on the index of Nancy Cooper's WS page, go to Legal Documents and look for Brad Cooper's Amended Rebuttal

ETA: my link doesn't work, but you can find it the "hard way", listed above, a few clicks and you're there, item #13, BC's Amended Rebuttal doc.

 

[SleuthyGal]

Vinegar & warm water is recommended for the cleaning of wood floors to keep them in good condition. (1/2 - 1 cup of white vinegar to 1 gallon of warm water is what is recommended.) Per Brad's affidavit he did NOT clean the wood floors before Nancy returned from HH.

Whether it was truly common for the Coopers to clean their floors with vinegar & water we don't know. And of course what he used to 'scrub' the floors clean on 7/12 we also don't know.

 

[SleuthyGal]

WELCOME LONGTIMELURKER!

Great info; it's nice to have folks with medical expertise to draw upon.

 

[jmflu]

I have been reading these posts from the very beginning. As I have a medical background I feel compelled to comment on the autopsy. From my reading I would say that the pathologist felt that NC was strangled probably with some sort of “ ligature.” In these cases it take 10-15 seconds for a person to become unconscious, very little time to fight back! If the ligature was something from the home( not the sports bra) then forensic testing can be performed on the ligature and DNA from the victim may be found, see below(11/14 cases) . If the bra was used this will not be helpful. If the item is something that would not normally have human skin on it and it was found in the home this would be very strong evidence that the strangulation occurred in the home. Although forensic pathology texts say that the fracture of the hyoid bone is uncommon or rare in strangulations there are a number of reports in medical literature stating that the fracture of the hyoid bond is common in ligature strangulation. The victims of this type of strangulation most often evacuate urine and feces. The autopsy said the bladder was empty but did not mention fecal staining on the buttocks or legs, perhaps because this area was too decomposed . There has been at least one case where DNA of the assailant was found under the fingernails of the victim who was strangled. However if NC was caught by surprise, ie assailant was behind her and caught her quickly in the neck with a ligature, she may not have been able to get her fingernails into the assailants skin.

In hanging and ligature strangulation, the noose mostly causes a mark or groove which is formed partly by compression of the skin and partly by abrasion with loss of the upper epidermal layers. The horny scales abraded from the neck may be transferred to the strangulation device or to the interposed textiles where they are sometimes visible at stereomicroscopic examination or even to the naked eye as silver–grey particles. The morphologic features of the epidermal transfer due to hanging and ligature strangulation is demonstrated by 14 case examples. The biological traces may be sufficient for comparative DNA typing by means of PCR-based methods. In 9 out of the 14 cases, genomic DNA typing was successful. Analysis of mtDNA succeeded in another two cases, although genomic DNA could not be detected. Beside the accumulation of solid epidermic particles the paper describes deposition of serous and fatty tissue fluid at the ligature (mainly adjacent to skin ridges).Forensic Science International
Volumes116, Issues 2-3, 15 February 2001, pages 107-115

So I expect they are a. trying to determine what was used as ligature, if it was not the sports bra, they may be looking for Nancy’s DNA on that, they obviously are looking for
the assailants DNA under her fingernails, evidence of feces/urine in the house/car etc
Another interesting note is that the mud was on the medial aspect of the left leg. Meaning if she was dragged that the inside of the left leg was what got dragged through the mud.

Unfortunately due to the weather, decomposition, time and insect infestation there may have been more evidence or forensic clues that had been there but were not able to be determined by the time the body was found and the autopsy performed.LL

WOW. Where have YOU been all this time??!!! I am so glad you came out of lurker mode! You are a HUGE bounty of information and I hope you don't go back into lurking mode!

Welcome!!!

 

[ncnative]

Vinegar & warm water is recommended for the cleaning of wood floors to keep them in good condition. (1/2 - 1 cup of white vinegar to 1 gallon of warm water is what is recommended.) Per Brad's affidavit he did NOT clean the wood floors before Nancy returned from HH.

Whether it was truly common for the Coopers to clean their floors with vinegar & water we don't know. And of course what he used to 'scrub' the floors clean on 7/12 we also don't know.

Sleuthy, I'm not referring to whether BC cleaned their floors w/vin./H2O BEFORE Nancy returned from Hilton Head. I KNOW that it is a recommended solution to use for wood floors (I have wood floors but never use that, only vacuum and use damp mop if necessary, not that it matters).

I AM saying that Brad Cooper's rebuttal affidavit speaks of Brad's cleaning the floors w/vinegar and water. I don't see why he had to mention the cleaning solution he used. Was he concerned that LE would notice he'd cleaned the floors with that (being a diluted acidic solution...sometimes used for other reasons, such as neutralizing bases (chlorine bleach is a basic as opposed to acid) or maybe he thought he could clean up urine or other bodily fluids with the vinegar/H2O, so he thought he'd mention he CLEANED the floors with it, maybe to cover up why he really used it.

An example of acid sol. (vin/H2O) neutralizing a basic sol.(such as chlorine bleach) is using vinegar to remove the slick, smelly chlorine from your hands after cleaning with the chlorine bleach sol.

Now, I can't even find that rebuttal affidavit by Brad. I WILL, but the guys just got here to cut up a tree that fell on our lawn.....

 

[jilly]

I KNOW that it is a recommended solution to use for wood floors (I have wood floors but never use that, only vacuum and use damp mop if necessary, not that it matters).

I recommend the vinegar and water!:crazy:I wouldn't do it any other way.
I don't think that it's odd that BC mentioned what he used. If you use it all the time, you'd probably say it without thinking. Maybe LE asked what he used or maybe they could smell it and asked about it.

 

[garner_nc]

This was in his rebuttal..so, I suppose he had heard all the media reports about him buying bleach at HT. If he only stated he cleaned the floors, then people would speculate that he did so with bleach. I believe he mentioned the cleaning solution specifically to end the gossip that he cleaned (the floors) with bleach. Otherwise, it adds no value to the rebuttal. What he really wanted to say was "I cleaned with vinegar and water, so there....I did not use bleach, stop the speculation".

 

[rwesafe]

I recommend the vinegar and water!:crazy:I wouldn't do it any other way.
I don't think that it's odd that BC mentioned what he used. If you use it all the time, you'd probably say it without thinking. Maybe LE asked what he used or maybe they could smell it and asked about it.

I don't think it is odd either, especially since he was accused of purchasing bleach to clean with. I'm sure he felt like it was necessary to state specifically what he used.

 

[Roy23]

Do we know that Nancy's shorts and shoes were not found at the dump site? I know they were not on her person but maybe in the location.

 

[jumpstreet]

Do we know that Nancy's shorts and shoes were not found at the dump site? I know they were not on her person but maybe in the location.

I think that would be an 'unknown' Roy... good question... but an 'unknown'.

 

[jmflu]

This was in his rebuttal..so, I suppose he had heard all the media reports about him buying bleach at HT. If he only stated he cleaned the floors, then people would speculate that he did so with bleach. I believe he mentioned the cleaning solution specifically to end the gossip that he cleaned (the floors) with bleach. Otherwise, it adds no value to the rebuttal. What he really wanted to say was "I cleaned with vinegar and water, so there....I did not use bleach, stop the speculation".

LOL... Excellent thought on why he mentioned it!

 

[ncnative]

No one in their right mind WOULD use bleach to clean wood floors, unless they wanted to ruin it. Maybe a very dilute amount... I think he mentioned vinegar and water in the rebuttal/amendment aff for a reason other than that. I think maybe he did some cleaning with vinegar and water, but it wasn't because he wanted things spiffy and squeaky, but maybe he was using the acidic solution to try and neutralize something of a bodily fluid sort that had soiled the floor.

That's just what I am thinking. Not knowing. It has been bugging me all along that he felt he needed to come back and say vinegar and water in his rebuttal/amended aff. You know, "cover all the bases" Brad.

 

[ncnative]

I recommend the vinegar and water!:crazy:I wouldn't do it any other way.
I don't think that it's odd that BC mentioned what he used. If you use it all the time, you'd probably say it without thinking. Maybe LE asked what he used or maybe they could smell it and asked about it.

Do you really think Brad "used it all the time"? It seems that Brad went into excessive cleaning mode after Nancy's "disappearance". I don't think he kept his sleeping quarters clean, if Nancy reported brown and yellow stained sheets and little brown bugs in the mattress. I don't think he was much of a cleaner if she cleaned her home nicely before she left for Hilton Head, then returned to nastiness caused by Brad, who did not clean it up himself. No, I don't think Brad would rattle off his using vinegar and water to clean wood floors because he "did it all the time".

 

[reddress58]

I know I'm a day (or 2) late and a dollar short of the conversation; but I had a thought. Some on the board were wondering why evidence didn't show NC fighting much against her attacker, given her height and fitness. Even though LE saw scratches only on the back left side of Brad's neck, Nancy may have fought like a madwoman for all we know and the evidence was hidden under Brad's long-sleeved attire.

 

[hroark2112]

I know I'm a day (or 2) late and a dollar short of the conversation; but I had a thought. Some on the board were wondering why evidence didn't show NC fighting much against her attacker, given her height and fitness. Even though LE saw scratches only on the back left side of Brad's neck, Nancy may have fought like a madwoman for all we know and the evidence was hidden under Brad's long-sleeved attire.

I'm sure LE checked his arms and any other areas that might have been injured by someone fighting him. I'd say it's probably a safe bet that his lawyers have full upper body photos saved for use later as well. They'd be fools not to have them, unless they showed claw marks.

From personal experience, both times I was involved in a domestic disturbance case (my ex-wife had a temper, and wasn't afraid to take a swing at me!) the police insisted on seeing me without a shirt on, and they also had a female officer check her for marks/bruises/signs of being hit.

If he had refused to take his shirt off for the detectives, I'll bet they would have released that incriminating tidbit to the news by now.

 

[reddress58]

I'm sure LE checked his arms and any other areas that might have been injured by someone fighting him. I'd say it's probably a safe bet that his lawyers have full upper body photos saved for use later as well. They'd be fools not to have them, unless they showed claw marks.

From personal experience, both times I was involved in a domestic disturbance case (my ex-wife had a temper, and wasn't afraid to take a swing at me!) the police insisted on seeing me without a shirt on, and they also had a female officer check her for marks/bruises/signs of being hit.

If he had refused to take his shirt off for the detectives, I'll bet they would have released that incriminating tidbit to the news by now.

But, wouldn't they need a SW to make him take his shirt off? And, by the time they got one, the marks could have dissappeared; especially if they were only surface like the ones on his neck.

 

[jmflu]

I know I'm a day (or 2) late and a dollar short of the conversation; but I had a thought. Some on the board were wondering why evidence didn't show NC fighting much against her attacker, given her height and fitness. Even though LE saw scratches only on the back left side of Brad's neck, Nancy may have fought like a madwoman for all we know and the evidence was hidden under Brad's long-sleeved attire.

You know, it's possible that he put something on a cloth, came up to her from behind, and put something over her mouth to keep her from screaming and waking the children, as well as fighting back.

 

[reddress58]

You know, it's possible that he put something on a cloth, came up to her from behind, and put something over her mouth to keep her from screaming and waking the children, as well as fighting back.

I thought that stuff just existed in James Bond movies. So you think there is really some liquid that would make you pass out? I have no idea.