AZ - Isabel Mercedes Celis, 6, Tucson, 20 April 2012 - #10

[liz b.]

I do remember hearing early on that Isa's hair was in two long braids. I can't say whether that was the first description in the media, but it was very early. I'll look for a link.

TY for this post. I never read or saw it. I SO wish that LE had done a photoshop of her with those braids... She would probably look quite different...MOO SIGH....

 

[Bodhi]

Liz B., on the KVOA coverage, there was no description at all in the first 3 stories about the search on Saturday, April 21. On Sunday, just after midnight, they gave a description:


Isabel is described as being just under 4- feet tall and weighs approximately 44 lbs. She was last seen with her hair in two long braids. She is missing one front tooth and one bottom tooth.

http://www.kvoa.com/full-coverage/finding-isabel/#fcanchor

 

[AnaTeresa]

If someone has kidnapped a child to keep, rather than immediately dispose of, one of the easiest things to change is the hair. While Isa may have gone to bed with her hair braided, there's no guarantee that her hair was still braided (or even long for that matter) if she's out and about with a perp. I don't think LE needed to put particular emphasis on her hair being braided or photoshop pictures of her with braids.

 

[CarrieBean]

TY for this post. I never read or saw it. I SO wish that LE had done a photoshop of her with those braids... She would probably look quite different...MOO SIGH....

This is all I've seen of her with her hair braided. I imagine she would look similar to any of the photos with her hair pulled back.

 

[~n/t~]

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?...59500548286.116726.56641053286&type=3&theater

 

[Prof]

I think I know what seems odd to ME about this...

Isabel was headed to her bed when he asked if she wanted something to eat. She said no, and apparently (yeah, I know, never assume) she then went to bed. He does not say he tucked her in, put her to bed, etc.

Becky was in bed before Isa, so we can assume SHE did not tuck her in.

BUT...

Sergio said Becky had just finished braiding Isa's hair for the next day before Isa came by looking sleepy (on her way to bed?). So how could Becky have gone to bed before Isa, if she was up braiding her hair?

I DO NOT THINK THE PARENTS ARE INVOLVED but this is the part of the account that gives me trouble.

Yes, it is a bit confusing to me.

We know they went to a baseball game that would end at 9 or 9:30 pm.
We know that at least Sergio (maybe all) stayed after the game to pick up the bases.
That does not leave a lot of time left in the evening.
Isa's hair needs to be braided.
Her mother needs to go to bed before Isa.
Isa must not have been sleepy before mother went to bed?
Isa needs to get sleepy.
Her dad needs to ask a sleepy Isa if she wants food.
Isa needs to say no, she's tired.
Her dad needs to see Isa walking by.

 

[mmmagique]

Asked if he had anything to do with Isabel's disappearance, Sergio closed his eyes for a moment before responding.

"I wish I knew where to begin," he said. "We are so frustrated."
Read more: http://azstarnet.com/news/local/cri...52f-11e1-83dc-0019bb2963f4.html#ixzz1tpL38kQm

Did anyone see the presser?
Why didn't he immediately say "NO" or did he? I didn't see it and the article might have left that out.

He never made any kind of denial. Strong or otherwise.

 

[cluciano63]

Gosh how did I miss so many posts? I can't seem to be on here for more than a few minutes at a time...

Also, Huffington Port seems to go out of their way to get things wrong...they have made at least two major mistakes in Sierra's case, never adjusted or corrected...

 

[~n/t~]

Yes, it is a bit confusing to me.

We know they went to a baseball game that would end at 9 or 9:30 pm.
We know that at least Sergio (maybe all) stayed after the game to pick up the bases.
That does not leave a lot of time left in the evening.
Isa's hair needs to be braided.
Her mother needs to go to bed before Isa.
Isa must not have been sleepy before mother went to bed?
Isa needs to get sleepy.
Her dad needs to ask a sleepy Isa if she wants food.
Isa needs to say no, she's tired.
Her dad needs to see Isa walking by.

Are we sure her hair was braided after the game? I have to listen to the interview again. Maybe mom braided her hair before the game?

 

[GutFeeling!]

Since my post was quoted and then uses a second person address "you," I guess I am expected to respond; although, I am confused.

First of all, I cannot imagine if I did this. Period.

If there was another person in that home, would not that person be very alerted when that person was not called as a potential witness, or involved?
Since posters have suggested that the uncle/cousin is suspect for the very reason he spoke to news media so early--inserted himself-- my thought would be that he would still be inserting himself if he was there the night Isa disappeared.

Again, my disclaimer: I may not be understanding the reply to my post.

Is this post suggesting that some known to the famliy person was in the house when Isa went missing, contrary to what LE has stated or led us to believe for 13 days, and LE instead of simply bringing in that other relative or friend to interview is trying to ignore that person, so that person will make a mistake?

Getting a tad paramoid there? lol "YOU" referred to the person that may or may not have been in the house, I expect no one to respond to my posts, you (this one means you as in the Prof) offered an opinion or posed a question I gave you an opinion and/or attempted to give you an answer

When I give an opinion it is mine - it says so on my signature. I am kinda getting tired of backhand bickering on here (this is NOT aimed at you, Prof) - just a general comment.

The last thing I think of when I sign in here is to argue with people that have the same interests as I, looking at this case and trying to make sense, and even if someone has the EXACT opposite opinion as mine I respect it. I may offer an opinion as to why they may believe that or why I think it doesn't stand up or even that I disagree and offer a reason why I disagree. Please don't think for a minute that I expect a reponse - not ever - unless I particularly say "Prof I would really like YOUR opinion on this post".

As for your earlier request for a copy of the presser - it has been posted quite a few times, I have read it quite a few times, I have read every single post on this entire thread since Isa disappeared. I copied the written report from Reuters which had said "police said" - I assumed that to mean that the police did say it - probably at a presser in which the reporter was in attendence, or maybe even, given that it is reuters and they actually are respected, a private interview. I am sorry I couldn't give you the presser that you requested, but it is on a site somewhere and copy and pasted quite a few times in these threads- somewhere between page one and eight.

The bolded bit in your response - ummm yes this is exactly what I said. That is the "you" I was referring to, not prof, the 'You" that took this child.

 

[liz b.]

This is all I've seen of her with her hair braided. I imagine she would look similar to any of the photos with her hair pulled back.

TY CB, Know what you mean...But, it is just that someone could have seen a little gir who looked a lot like Isabel, say, in a vehicle. They might have only registered that the child's hair was braided.Might not have looked as closely at her as they would if the possible braids were mentioned and highlighted...MOO

I followed the case from the beginning. The actual clothes she was wearing,hair, etc was somehow just not focused on ? MOO

I wonder,did LE know quite early that this child was possibly deceased ? MOO

JMO

 

[cluciano63]

TY CB, Know what you mean...But, it is just that someone could have seen a little gir who looked a lot like Isabel, say, in a vehicle. They might have only registered that the child's hair was braided.Might not have looked as closely at her as they would if the possible braids were mentioned and highlighted...MOO

I followed the case from the beginning. The actual clothes she was wearing,hair, etc was somehow just not focused on ? MOO

I wonder,did LE know quite early that this child was possibly deceased ? MOO

JMO

I wonder that too...
I am not seeing much of importance that could be detected by dogs otherwise...but that is just my opinion and I know there are scenarios, we've been all through them, as well as just about everything else...JMO

 

[GutFeeling!]

That's not a quote, but the reporter's words. Who knows.
If Isabel did go to bed on her own that night, it's certainly possible someone was already in the house.

You're correct it isn't a direct quote, but according to that reporter (and please note this is not a Huff Post often looney blogger/reporter, this is reuters) the police said it. The police may have dropped the F bomb in there (I am sure they didn't this is an example) so the reporter has reworded the cops exact words, leaving out the unnecessary word.

If I directly quoted everything said to me in stories word for word there would be quite a few people that would look like complete buffoons with their stuttering, obvious poor word choices, poor explanations - often caused by nerves or circumstance. But TUCKED in this case seems to be a word mentioned not one added by the reporter for colour. IF the reporter did actually throw that word in off their own back I am sure there would be a retraction and apology because it would certainly mislead readers.

 

[cluciano63]

TY CB, Know what you mean...But, it is just that someone could have seen a little gir who looked a lot like Isabel, say, in a vehicle. They might have only registered that the child's hair was braided.Might not have looked as closely at her as they would if the possible braids were mentioned and highlighted...MOO

I followed the case from the beginning. The actual clothes she was wearing,hair, etc was somehow just not focused on ? MOO

I wonder,did LE know quite early that this child was possibly deceased ? MOO

JMO

I wonder that too...
I am not seeing much of importance that could be detected by dogs otherwise...but that is just my opinion and I know there are scenarios, we've been all through them, as well as just about everything else...JMO

 

[marazul]

About the theory of her parents being involved: most who have shared their theories mentioned an accidental death from abuse followed by a cover-up, and here is why I don't believe that:
It would not be easy to accidentally kill a strong, healthy, sporty six year old with a spanking or a fall after a shove. This is not a shaken baby, it is a strong little girl, and I am not saying spanking necessarily the correct way to discipline a child, but a six year old can take a spanking. Kids this age fall off bikes, wrestle around with each other, have sports injuries, if they die from a beating, it is a deliberate, extreme, forceful, excessive, intended injury beating. The idea of a child this size being spanked and falling and dying by hitting their head is far up there. Some kids ARE sadly beat this way (poor Nixmary comes to mind), but these are cases where there is a past history of abuse or suspicion of abuse, going to school with bruises, being dressed in long clothes to hide bruises, missing school, sports, etc. You would have siblings saying, "mom and dad paddle us". (Bianca) You would have teachers saying something. These things happen more to abused, neglected kids who are not enrolled in activities that the parents take part in, like baseball.
And non-abusive parents, in my opinion, would not go from zero to killing their child in one day.

Regarding the theory she died from abuse (sexual) by uncle: yes, sexual offenders will molest/rape and kill their victims sometimes, especially in stranger abductions, But while family member sexual abuse is very common, it is usually something that takes place over months or years, and these types of pedophiles, while sick and horrible, trend towards creating a "bond" and "secrecy" and (vomit) "special friendship" with their victims. I just can't see the uncle deciding to molest/rape and kill his niece and stage a kidnapping. If it was his first time trying something, and she resisted, it seems he would have denied it to the parents, said he was just checking on her or something, and moved on to a different victim. With no SO history or child predator history, a rape/murder is not a common first offense.

I am not saying it is not possible, but I do not think an accidental death by abuse, either physical or sexual, is the answer here. And even more strongly, I don't buy the idea of the dad helping the uncle cover it up. If a male relative of MINE hurt my kids, their dad would either kill him or call the cops, but not help him stage a kidnapping....JMO

 

[cluciano63]

How long ago did the relative live in the house, if I read that correctly? Did the Celis' buy the house from him? Wondering about keys.

 

[Anita Richman]

About the theory of her parents being involved: most who have shared their theories mentioned an accidental death from abuse followed by a cover-up, and here is why I don't believe that:
It would not be easy to accidentally kill a strong, healthy, sporty six year old with a spanking or a fall after a shove. This is not a shaken baby, it is a strong little girl, and I am not saying spanking necessarily the correct way to discipline a child, but a six year old can take a spanking. Kids this age fall off bikes, wrestle around with each other, have sports injuries, if they die from a beating, it is a deliberate, extreme, forceful, excessive, intended injury beating. The idea of a child this size being spanked and falling and dying by hitting their head is far up there. Some kids ARE sadly beat this way (poor Nixmary comes to mind), but these are cases where there is a past history of abuse or suspicion of abuse, going to school with bruises, being dressed in long clothes to hide bruises, missing school, sports, etc. You would have siblings saying, "mom and dad paddle us". (Bianca) You would have teachers saying something. These things happen more to abused, neglected kids who are not enrolled in activities that the parents take part in, like baseball.
And non-abusive parents, in my opinion, would not go from zero to killing their child in one day.

Regarding the theory she died from abuse (sexual) by uncle: yes, sexual offenders will molest/rape and kill their victims sometimes, especially in stranger abductions, But while family member sexual abuse is very common, it is usually something that takes place over months or years, and these types of pedophiles, while sick and horrible, trend towards creating a "bond" and "secrecy" and (vomit) "special friendship" with their victims. I just can't see the uncle deciding to molest/rape and kill his niece and stage a kidnapping. If it was his first time trying something, and she resisted, it seems he would have denied it to the parents, said he was just checking on her or something, and moved on to a different victim. With no SO history or child predator history, a rape/murder is not a common first offense.

I am not saying it is not possible, but I do not think an accidental death by abuse, either physical or sexual, is the answer here. And even more strongly, I don't buy the idea of the dad helping the uncle cover it up. If a male relative of MINE hurt my kids, their dad would either kill him or call the cops, but not help him stage a kidnapping....JMO

:goodpost:Marazul, very well written and explained! I absolutely agree with you and tried to express it previously, but not as well as you did.

 

[Zuckerschnecke]

Trying to keep up with this thread but it's not easy! I hope everyone will respect each others opinions and realize we are all really 'thinking out loud.' If any of us held the key to the castle, so to speak, we wouldn't be here. I enjoy others opinions just as much as I enjoy expressing mine.

Based on Sergio's reaction to that question, I have to wonder if the parents left the house that night and someone else they trusted was caring for the kids. The cousin/uncle/friend comes to mind but maybe it's someone completely different. I do think they are hating themselves for some reason and because they don't want to make accusations about this person, they are laying low, hoping beyond hope what happened to their precious daughter was really want this person is making them believe. It's kind of how the Anthony's were at first, defending CA and as time went by and realilty sunk in, and they came to their senses.....well we know how that turned out.

 

[BetteDavisEyes]

Transcript now available from this morning's Today show:

http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/47277...ng-tucson-girls-parents-say-theyre-desperate/

 

[Zuckerschnecke]

Regarding the theory she died from abuse (sexual) by uncle: yes, sexual offenders will molest/rape and kill their victims sometimes, especially in stranger abductions, But while family member sexual abuse is very common, it is usually something that takes place over months or years, and these types of pedophiles, while sick and horrible, trend towards creating a "bond" and "secrecy" and (vomit) "special friendship" with their victims. I just can't see the uncle deciding to molest/rape and kill his niece and stage a kidnapping. If it was his first time trying something, and she resisted, it seems he would have denied it to the parents, said he was just checking on her or something, and moved on to a different victim. With no SO history or child predator history, a rape/murder is not a common first offense.

I am not saying it is not possible, but I do not think an accidental death by abuse, either physical or sexual, is the answer here. And even more strongly, I don't buy the idea of the dad helping the uncle cover it up. If a male relative of MINE hurt my kids, their dad would either kill him or call the cops, but not help him stage a kidnapping....JMO

It would not surprise me if she WAS being molested. This has nothing AT ALL to do with her family in particular. Only that kids hide it for so long.