AZ - Isabel Mercedes Celis, 6, Tucson, 20 April 2012 - #15

[Lark2]

And I havent either, but I have seen some things to suggest MAYBE some people they know or MAYBE people in family MIGHT BE.

Who knows, the only thing I care about is:

WHERE IS ISABEL?

Then please post the things that SUGGEST this, or I think it should be dropped.

 

[Considering]

I find Sergio's demeanor on the 911 call odd as do others. However, I can't read much into it. Let me explain why. I have a much younger little sister, SusieQ. When SusieQ was four she was attending a model all-day preschool, considered to be one of the best. One morning SusieQ's preschool class went on a field trip to a local farm. Our mother went along to help. They returned from the field trip around 11:00 that morning and everyone went inside. One of SusieQ's teachers asked SusieQ if she wanted some ice cream. Of course, SusieQ did and she went with the teacher to get some, leaving our mother standing near the door. Mom went out the door, got in her car and drove home. Three hours later, Mom returned to pick-up SusieQ from preschool. When she pulled up into the pick up line, SusieQ's teacher opened the car door and said to Mom, "What are you doing here?" Our mother thought that was a rather strange question since she picked up SusieQ everyday, but she politely answered, "I'm here to pick-up SusieQ." All the color drained from the preschool teacher's face and she ran back inside the building, leaving Mom sitting in the car. Mom reached over and pulled the door shut, drove around to the side of the building, parked and went inside. SusieQ's teacher was inside crying hysterically. She couldn't sit down. She couldn't stand still. She was trying to explain to the director that something was wrong but she could barely talk and when she did it was difficult to understand what she was saying. She finally got out, "Call the police!" When they returned from the farm, SusieQ's teacher left our mother standing by the door when she took SusieQ to get ice cream. After she gave her an ice cream cone, she said "Bye. See you tomorrow," to SusieQ and sent her toward the door where Mom was waiting (she thought). SusieQ went to the door. Mom was gone, but the teacher had told her "Bye" so she thought she had to leave so that's exactly what SusieQ did. SusieQ left with her ice cream cone and since Mom was gone she decided that she had to walk home so she started on her journey. Maybe I should mention here that SusieQ cannot hear and she had a limited verbal skills at this point in her life. Now, if you were SusieQ's mom, how would you react? Rather, how do you think you would react because in reality you don't really know because you are not SusieQ's mother, you do not even know SusieQ, you do not have SusieQ's mother's life experiences or personality. Here's how our mother reacted. The police cars came flying into the parking lot with their sirens blaring. The one preschool teacher was still hysterical and the others were crying. The director was pacing. SusieQ's mother sat in one of the small children's chairs at one of the tables trying to calm everyone else down. She described SusieQ to the officer and told him what she was wearing. She told him that SusieQ was most likely headed home and although there were several streets to cross and various turns to be made that SusieQ was very good with things like that and she was sure that if she could leave now and go drive the route that she always took on the way home that she would find SusieQ. Mom even suggested how far she thought SusieQ might have gotten. The officer taking the information was visibly shaken and our mother assured him that she was sure it would all turn out fine. They didn't want Mom to leave the preschool in case someone should find SusieQ or in case SusieQ should return to the preschool on her own, but several officers took off in different cars to check out various parts of the route that Mom drove when taking SusieQ home everyday. One of them found her not too far from where Mom thought she might be. SusieQ came riding back to the preschool in a police car. We went home. SusieQ went back to preschool the next day. The preschool teacher was so upset that she took a couple of days off. Mom never did fall apart. When she was asked how she kept it together in such an awful situation, she always said, "What good would it have done if everyone fell apart? Getting upset wouldn't have helped SusieQ or anyone that needed to help find her. The best thing I could do for SusieQ was to remain calm." To this day, Mom laughs about the look on the preschool teacher's face when she told her that she was there to pick up SusieQ. That's just our mother. I saw the whole incident. Mom's always been like that. Would I act like her in the same situation? Of course, I wouldn't. I'm a different person. I have absolutely no idea how I would act. I don't think I'd act as odd as Sergio did in the 911 call, either. Then, again, I'm not Sergio. I'm not Isa's parent. I don't know Isa. I don't have the same life experiences and personality of Sergio. I can't possibly know how Sergio would act. Do I find his demeanor odd? I do. Do I think it shows guilt? No. I don't believe it can be interpreted as meaning anything at all.

 

[Lava]

I really feel like we are getting some conflicting information about the rules here at WS. From what I understand, locals are allowed to post rumors (which I think is awesome, because he could lead to the truth). However, are we supposed to just thank these locals and move on? Or can we discuss these rumors in our theories as long as we clearly state they come from local rumors?

For example, this cartel/FF rumor. IMO it is completely plausible, even if it might be a really really rare event. It started based on local rumors, so there is no MSM article we can link to in regards to this specific case, however several people have posted links to show that it HAS happened. I don't think it has to have happened in Tuscon specifically for it to be plausible. It is no secret the cartels are coming farther and farther into the US - and the whole "supposed" purpose of FF was to target people INSIDE the US.

I honestly feel those posting about this theory have done a pretty good job of connecting it to specific facts in this case in theory. For example, certain people in the family have lived in areas where smuggling may be common, the family does seem to live outside their mean (although there are many explanations for this, and there was those two FF suspects who changed their pleas after Isabel disappeared. These are all connections based in theory, not fact, but we all talk about different theories.

I personally will keep the FF/Cartel theory on my table as I do think SC has some involvement in this, but I can't see him as a pervert - so I have to consider other alternatives. And I do thank everyone who has been posting about this unpopular theory for their insights, because it is all very interesting.

 

[Shelby2]

This is what was posted yesterday regarding rumors

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - AZ AZ - Isabel Mercedes Celis, 6, Tucson, 20 April 2012 - #14

 

[PAXIMUS]

You don't have access to the Celis case files, the Celis interviews, the FBI reports, any forensic or trace lab results, the reports from the canine handlers, the Celis parents, kids, uncles, cousins, the house, the grounds, the videos, the interviews of the neighbors, the interviews of the RSOs, or any of the likely hundreds of other pieces that have been amassed in this case.

A bunch of databases are tools to look things up, but they are not Celis-specific case information.

Without direct access to the body of knowledge amassed in this specific case, which can only be obtained by being inside the investigation at a high enough level, we have very little if anything. We are part of the general public. We know a mere fraction and some of what we know may be incorrect because of incorrect MSM reports.

So what is the point of all of us being here then, if we cant speculate and discuss things that we CANT ABSOLUTELY 100% WITHOUT ANY DOUBT WHATSOEVER PROVE, this whole exercise seems rather futile and complete waste of everyone's time.

 

[Madeleine74]

I will post this here on the record so that we can move on and discuss cartels and kidnappings from here on forward:


From, Judicial Watch:

Mexican Cartels Make Phoenix U.S. Kidnap Capital

http://www.judicialwatch.org/blog/2009/02/mexican-cartels-make-phoenix-kidnap-capital/

Snipped




Like I said before I am shocked that people arent aware of this, it has happened to kids in California, Texas, Arizona, many of which never make the news or get reported to police because the parents are illegals. It happens to both kids and adults alike and a simple google search produces hundreds of results and stories and cases of CARTELS KIDNAPPING US CITIZENS FOR RANSOM.

What portion of those who are kidnapped are:

- Children under the age of 10, specifically females under the age of 10.
- Kidnapped by themselves, with no other family member being taken as well.
- Taken out of their house, out of their room, out of their beds, at some point between 11pm and 6:30am
- No contact is made by the kidnapper after the abduction

Just showing articles where it says cartels kidnap people doesn't say anything about the Isa case specifically. We know there are drug and gun cartels. We know "people" get kidnapped. We know certain areas of the country are at risk with the influx of cartel activity.

Where is the information about young children taken out of their beds in these U.S. cities by these cartel gangs?

 

[PAXIMUS]

I really feel like we are getting some conflicting information about the rules here at WS. From what I understand, locals are allowed to post rumors (which I think is awesome, because he could lead to the truth). However, are we supposed to just thank these locals and move on? Or can we discuss these rumors in our theories as long as we clearly state they come from local rumors?

For example, this cartel/FF rumor. IMO it is completely plausible, even if it might be a really really rare event. It started based on local rumors, so there is no MSM article we can link to in regards to this specific case, however several people have posted links to show that it HAS happened. I don't think it has to have happened in Tuscon specifically for it to be plausible. It is no secret the cartels are coming farther and farther into the US - and the whole "supposed" purpose of FF was to target people INSIDE the US.

I honestly feel those posting about this theory have done a pretty good job of connecting it to specific facts in this case in theory. For example, certain people in the family have lived in areas where smuggling may be common, the family does seem to live outside their mean (although there are many explanations for this, and there was those two FF suspects who changed their pleas after Isabel disappeared. These are all connections based in theory, not fact, but we all talk about different theories.

I personally will keep the FF/Cartel theory on my table as I do think SC has some involvement in this, but I can't see him as a pervert - so I have to consider other alternatives. And I do thank everyone who has been posting about this unpopular theory for their insights, because it is all very interesting.

Thank you for saying what I am too lazy to type!

 

[LisaB]

We have assumed because of his age he is referred to as Uncle by the kids, he is a cousin to BC, 2nd cousin to Isabel. It's all linked up way back yonder lol

Now I am confused all over again. I thought someone in the last thread had found that JM is actually the son of the woman Becky's father married after divorcing from her mother, and is therefore Becky's step-brother and Isa's step-uncle (or "Uncle" to simplify matters). Help? Can you direct me to the post that confirms that he is Becky's cousin?

 

[bessie]

I had this page translated from Spanish. It shows that Cartels will pay up to $500,000 for a child to work in the US as spies and eventually turned into killers for the cartels. They are recruited from Mexican and latino families. The article says they start recruiting under 11 yrs of age but who knows what a parent would do for a debt owed or for that large amount of money (OMG, I would hate to think that)!!

http://translate.google.com/transla...s+unidos&hl=en&rlz=1T4GGLL_enUS305&prmd=imvns

Dolly, the article says children 11-17. Someone else posted an Anderson Cooper piece on the same subject. Many of us know this is a fact. It's a tragic situation, but it doesn't really support a scenario involving a 6 year old girl.

 

[LisaB]

You really dont need to go over to the house to get pictures use street veiw on Google Maps by dragging the little man fron under the compass onto the street, from there you can walk virtually the entire way around the home. The wall around the back and side should be 6 feet and the wall in the front 5 feet and the wooden section of fence on the west side of the home is about 4 to 5 feet and its a mix between an RV gate and a Foot gate.

The Address to enter in Google is 5602 N. 12th Street, Tucson Az.

Actually, if you look carefully (and have the street names turned on) you will see that you can't walk around the house. There is an alley behind the house, but when you try to walk into it, you are magically transported over to Cooper Street which is the NEXT road after the alley.

 

[Shelby2]

Then please post the things that SUGGEST this, or I think it should be dropped.

But there are no links to show that SC was abusing Isabel either. No link to show that there was *advertiser censored* on SC's computer. Both theories have been discussed here.

It's not like there is just one local talking about this. There are a few, who have all heard the same thing.

It's not up to you to say which theory should be 'dropped'.

 

[crystalgenie]

I will post this here on the record so that we can move on and discuss cartels and kidnappings from here on forward:


From, Judicial Watch:

Mexican Cartels Make Phoenix U.S. Kidnap Capital

http://www.judicialwatch.org/blog/2009/02/mexican-cartels-make-phoenix-kidnap-capital/

Snipped




Like I said before I am shocked that people arent aware of this, it has happened to kids in California, Texas, Arizona, many of which never make the news or get reported to police because the parents are illegals. It happens to both kids and adults alike and a simple google search produces hundreds of results and stories and cases of CARTELS KIDNAPPING US CITIZENS FOR RANSOM.

Thanks wasn't enough. It is sad that so many people have no idea how many missing there are in the border states.

I am suprised a lot of people do not remember all the stories out of El Paso, TX and Phoenix. The abductions by the cartels on US soil was all over the news last year.

 

[Whisperer]

...Looking forward to the Search Warrant being released later this month.

 

[mamamia54]

Now THIS, shouts out to me -

But after three weeks of searching for the missing girl, police haven’t named a suspect or sought the public’s help in finding one, and that is the most telling thing about the Celis case, said Steven Pitt, a forensic psychiatrist whom police called on during the JonBenet Ramsey homicide investigation.
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articl...red-from-contact-with-his-other-children.html

 

[FrayedKnot]

So what is the point of all of us being here then, if we cant speculate and discuss things that we CANT ABSOLUTELY 100% WITHOUT ANY DOUBT WHATSOEVER PROVE, this whole exercise seems rather futile and complete waste of everyone's time.

You beat me to it. I provided links to news articles showing names and court dates, and presented the theory as just that. A THEORY.

Since we don't have but about 4 facts as confirmed by LE, and are not allowed to hypothesize unless we use these 4 facts, this is really pretty pointless.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[LisaB]

Can I find a google view from today? My understanding is that the views are taken at different times and are updated occasionally. I want to know what the yard and wall looks like right now. (If someone took a photo of my backyard a year ago, it would look like a completely different place today.)

No. There is no "live" version of this. You may find some webcams that are live in the area, but none of them will allow you to walk around houses, as they are primarily concerned with traffic or tourist attractions (Ocean City MD boardwalk has a couple, and a lot of our traffic cams stream live).

 

[Lava]

But there are no links to show that SC was abusing Isabel either. No link to show that there was *advertiser censored* on SC's computer. Both theories have been discussed here.

It's not like there is just one local talking about this. There are a few, who have all heard the same thing.

It's not up to you to say which theory should be 'dropped'.

I was just about to say this, Thank you!

There are no real facts so support ANY theory in this case. All we know is Isabel is gone and SC can't contact his sons. There are no links to support the parents being guilty, or innocent. There are no links to support a stranger kidnapping in this case specifically. LE has said they are looking at all possibilities, so should we.

 

[txanmom]

Actually, if you look carefully (and have the street names turned on) you will see that you can't walk around the house. There is an alley behind the house, but when you try to walk into it, you are magically transported over to Cooper Street which is the NEXT road after the alley.

Hi Lisa! I know what you mean, I have tried to make that dadgum google man walk around that alley forever!! It has frustrated me to no end!

 

[PAXIMUS]

I was just about to say this, Thank you!

There are no real facts so support ANY theory in this case. All we know is Isabel is gone and SC can't contact his sons. There are no links to support the parents being guilty, or innocent. There are no links to support a stranger kidnapping in this case specifically. LE has said they are looking at all possibilities, so should we.

Thanks for this!

 

[Lava]

I don't think there's one universal answer of why people are here or what value it is to them.

I'm just saying that the real "sleuthing" (and I consider those to be the people who are inside the investigation, be they local LE or FBI) who have access to the case files and the amassed body of knowledge, which includes all evidence, interviews, testing which has been conducted.

Do you disagree? Do you have access to the Celis case files? I sure don't.

All I've personally seen are news articles, blog posts, some portion of the 911 calls, some LE press conferences.

In a prior post you've encouraged us to sleuth and research to find out more. I'm willing to find out more! I need access to the Celis case files or at least more case information and facts in order to do that.

There are several ways to sleuth without needing the specific case files. We have seen it several times in different cases. I have my theories, and I have researched and tried to draw connections to those theories with plain old public information online.