AZ - Isabel Mercedes Celis, 6, Tucson, 20 April 2012 - #21

[bethofalltrades]

I can't see LE intentionally changing this man's statement; what would be the point? They would not be able to use him as a witness if he denied ever saying what was in the reports. These reports are a form of legal docs; it would be pretty egregious for LE to put down info slanted against the parents on purpose, IMO.

I do wonder though if people who talked to police had any idea that their words would be published. I hope that anyone who may have had real info already gave it, before this doc came out, or they might well think twice.

JMO

I haven't had time to go through all the docs, but could the "statement" that was allegedly misquoted have been instead an officer's accounting of what was said, intended to be used internally as part of further investigation? So rather than a formal statement, signed by the witness, it's a write-up after the fact that wouldn't be used in court?

I ask because I know that police in my hometown don't always have witnesses sign formal statements. Instead, they record what was said and use it as a compass to direct their next moves in the investigation. Obviously if someone says "I saw Sally shoot Joe," the statement would be signed, but if it was just "Sally and Joe didn't always get along," then that might be recorded more informally. I did grow up in a place much smaller than Tucson, but nonetheless, the idea that the statement might not have been recorded accurately seems very plausible to me.

In general, I hesitate to suspect Isa's parents. Just the other day, I read a blog from several weeks ago, written by someone who analysed an interview with Sierra Lamar's mom. The writer made some very convincing arguments that SL's mom's word choice indicated she knew more than she was saying, and wasn't behaving as one would expect the mother of a missing girl to. We all know now that she wasn't involved in what happened to her daughter. I'll stay firmly on the fence until more evidence is available. MOO.

 

[panthera]

I am in Tucson and used a storage unit for valuables and CD's ect while I was renovating my home. I don't know why but things were just fine. The unit did not get that hot inside although it was 100 or more on the outside. I did not pay for air conditioning.

Thank you for the input! Am still trying to imagine what was on those CDs, however.

 

[LisaB]

I think we all take the info presented and ponder it in relation to our own lives. I've read many express concern that Isa wore street clothes to bed, or why would someone sleep on the couch... even why would someone was dishes when a child is missing.

(snip)

I have put my grandkids to bed in soft clothes - knit tee shirt, knit shorts, when mom forgets to bring PJs. You do what you need to do - improvise, do your best with what you have. Actually knit clothes with an elastic waist and stretchy fabric are no different than PJs with soft fabric and an elastic waist!

(snip)

Thanks for allowing my rant!

My :twocents::
Part 1: The concern was not that she wore street clothes to bed. It was a question that goes something like this... if your child had been to a playground for several hours, came home, showered, and then presented herself for hair braiding in the filthy (assumption) clothes she'd palyed "hard in the dirt" in, would you ask them if they had, in fact showered yet? And if they said they had, would you not question her choice to re-dress in their dirty play clothes afterward when they have, and presumably usually wear (BASED ON THE BROTHER'S STATEMENT TO 911, NOT ON IT BEING "RIGHT" OR "WRONG" TO DO SO) pajamas. If nothing else, the bedsheets would end up full of sand. If they had said she was too tired to shower and they braided her hair and put her to bed, that's all fine and good with me. But when you consider what the parents say she had on, compare to what she had on at the park, and what SHE normally slept in, it's hard to believe she showered. There's no reason to LIE about that! Had it ever been suggested their kids were not clean and well cared for and they just wanted to put that to rest quickly?

I think a lot of people take Sergio sleeping on the sofa as the stereotypical "mom is mad at dad so dad sleeps on the couch" scenario to let themselves believe there was a reason Sergio did not sleep with Becky that night. Others may think that he "set it up" by saying he was going to watch the game, so she would not wonder why he was not in bed while he did something nefarious, and that when he finished his evil deed, around 5am, he went to bed. Some people (me) think that after a long day he was tired. He wanted to see that evening's game so he would be able to discuss it with the other Dads at Isa's Saturday game, and dozed off.

Doing dishes sounds like it could be something done out of nervousness, but I would probably have known to WAIT FOR LE. If you thought the child had been abducted, you would not want to touch ANYTHING that could have a fingerprint or DNA on it, and washing the dishes seems unwise. But how many dishes were in the sink, anyway? Were they washing up to try to make the house appear to be tidier than it was normally kept? Neighbor D.P. said he rarely saw Becky who worked all the time... maybe she just was a little behind on the dishes and wanted the house to look nice when LE arrived? Had it ever been suggested their home was not clean enough and they did not want their housekeeping to become a focal point?

Part 2: Assuming you are talking about little children <10, there actually IS a good reason to put them in actual pajamas, and it is FLAMMABILITY. Lounge pants, t-shirts, shorts, tank tops and sweat suits are flammable. Childrens' sleepwear is not. Anything loose fitting that you put a child to sleep in should be non-flammable. Tighter things are less of an issue and a regular sized tank top (not "oversized") and underpants is not likely to pose a flammability hazard.

Part 3: Rant on. It's the American way!

 

[winterrose]

On April 21st LE went to the apt of two of RC's brothers, checked it and interviewed three of the brothers and her father in the apt, on E Lakeside Parkway. Two days later her brother RR's truck was taken at night with a search warrant to police evidence. Also on 4 23 they were checking traffic cameras for Isa in a vehicle for as early as 9pm April 20th to 10am April 21st. So it seems like the last time she was seen by anyone other than family was 9pm that night at the ballpark.

 

[LisaB]

I can't see LE intentionally changing this man's statement; what would be the point? They would not be able to use him as a witness if he denied ever saying what was in the reports. These reports are a form of legal docs; it would be pretty egregious for LE to put down info slanted against the parents on purpose, IMO.

I do wonder though if people who talked to police had any idea that their words would be published. I hope that anyone who may have had real info already gave it, before this doc came out, or they might well think twice.

JMO

I think there was some misunderstanding between the officer and the interviewee. No notes were taken, nothing was recorded in spite of this being a PRE-SCHEDULED INTERVIEW. The subject states that his words were taken out of context, and it is not impossible that he is telling the truth, ASSUMING HE DID NOT SIGN THE STATEMENT HE NOW REBUTS! In addition, there is a tradition in some families which may or may not hold true in this family (I am trying to be cautious, Mods) to name a child after his parent to carry on the name. In such a case, confusion could arise if there happened to be two family members with the same first and last name.

 

[LisaB]

Did the man speak to two different officers- one that he approached and one that interviewed him> moo I am not sure. But IF two different officers spoke with him , I would tend to believe le.

IIRC, he only told the "first officer" he knew the family and a time was scheduled for an interview. All other statements were made to the "second officer" who noted that he had volunteered information (in this case, offering the information that he was acquainted with the family) and the interview had been arranged. The first and second officers may have been the same officer, but I can't get a reference (PKT#/PG#) to verify whether the first officer and the second officer were one and the same.

 

[Dee10]

In general, I hesitate to suspect Isa's parents. Just the other day, I read a blog from several weeks ago, written by someone who analyzed an interview with Sierra Lamar's mom. The writer made some very convincing arguments that SL's mom's word choice indicated she knew more than she was saying, and wasn't behaving as one would expect the mother of a missing girl to. We all know now that she wasn't involved in what happened to her daughter. I'll stay firmly on the fence until more evidence is available. MOO.

I just wanted to ask a question and make a comment regarding this particular portion of your post. I only loosely or sporadically followed that tragic case, but please anyone feel free to correct me if I am wrong. It has been hashed over the Sierra's Mom was in the know with LE regarding the car, did Sierra know this person, etc. Is it possible when she did interviews, she was choosing her words carefully or may have 'looked' like she was trying to hide something due to the simply fact she didn't want to say too much? Just a thought.

I am totally on the fence on this case (at this point) as well...sometimes I don't even see a fence in cases however, I won't proclaim the parents are innocent because of it, so much as not enough information to have an opinion one way or another. I love to discuss cases & hear people's different opinions. I believe we are all at Websleuths because we either have one or want one (to know more) lol.

 

[Eileen730]

I was one of the PJ people. I don't think there is a dang thing wrong with wearing shorts and a top to sleep. Or just a top. Or just underpants. I know there were hot nights as a kid my mom let us sleep in swimsuits! I don't think it was neglectful or abusive, it was just a stupid thing that we did.

The ONLY REASON I have asked about the PJs is that IIRC, someone early on (who I believe had helped Isabel when she was choking on something at the game) said that she had on a light tank top and navy shorts at that time. IF the "light" top was pink, then this is what Sergio said she walked by in saying she was too sleepy to want food... or rather, when he went in, dimmed her light and tucked her in... I keep forgetting which it was... (LOL).

Sergio stated that they all had showered. If that is the case, it sounds as if HE believes she redressed in the dirty clothing (she was on the playground, not sitting on the bleachers the whole time) after she bathed. Even if DAD was too oblivious to notice, Mom (who braided her hair) ALSO said she had on navy blue shorts, but that she was in a dark blue shirt (if she had been playing hard in the dirt in a light colored shirt, she might have changed when she got home whether or not she had showered, just because it was visibly dirty). I don't care if she slept in her Halloween costume, to be honest, but her oldest brother was of the opinion that she slept in pajamas, (either pink or green - suggesting he often saw her in pajamas at bedtime, and these were the sets she wore), so if she showered, why didn't she put on what she normally wore to sleep?

It just seems like MAYBE she didn't shower. She could have been too tired to shower or change, and that is okay too. She had an early game and was only going to get dirty again, so why would a parent make up a story about their kid showering?

Little girls clothes are usually all cotton anyway so i dont think it would matter . the short sets are usually just like the P J's

Im curious when the boys last saw her and if they were up later than Mom and Dad!

 

[Salem]

The bickering and rudeness need to stop now. If you alert a post and then respond to it - you will receive a TO.

Just because the Mods are not here to address the issue the very moment you alert it - does not mean that we are not going to review it. We will get here when we can and address any problems at that time.

That means - alert the post, and MOVE ON! Don't decide you need to help us out, that will just get YOU in trouble. Move on.

Thanks,

Salem

 

[time]

Someone asked why the man who claims to have been misquoted would have signed the statement if it was that far off base. I only asked if someone could provide the page and packet numbers, or just verify that they had seen the witness' signature on his statement. IF he signed it, I agree that he is "back-pedaling." If only the officer signed it, then I can't be sure he (MT) saw it after it was prepared, prior to it being released to the world.

I wouldn't think they'd have people just coming in to give information sign statements since it is just investigation background and such. He is not supplying a deposition, affidavit, report, or so on

 

[LisaB]

I haven't had time to go through all the docs, but could the "statement" that was allegedly misquoted have been instead an officer's accounting of what was said, intended to be used internally as part of further investigation? So rather than a formal statement, signed by the witness, it's a write-up after the fact that wouldn't be used in court?

I ask because I know that police in my hometown don't always have witnesses sign formal statements. Instead, they record what was said and use it as a compass to direct their next moves in the investigation. Obviously if someone says "I saw Sally shoot Joe," the statement would be signed, but if it was just "Sally and Joe didn't always get along," then that might be recorded more informally. I did grow up in a place much smaller than Tucson, but nonetheless, the idea that the statement might not have been recorded accurately seems very plausible to me.

In general, I hesitate to suspect Isa's parents. Just the other day, I read a blog from several weeks ago, written by someone who analysed an interview with Sierra Lamar's mom. The writer made some very convincing arguments that SL's mom's word choice indicated she knew more than she was saying, and wasn't behaving as one would expect the mother of a missing girl to. We all know now that she wasn't involved in what happened to her daughter. I'll stay firmly on the fence until more evidence is available. MOO.

EXACTLY WHAT I MEANT TO SAY! I believe the document containing the man's statement was written up after he left based purely on the interviewer's memory. This person may have unintentionally made mis-statements, or have inserted their own language for his.

Dumb examples:
pop = soda
bag = sack
toilet = commode
sink = wash basin

No notes were taken during the interview, and it is likely the officer did not notice that there were unanswered questions and "filled in the blanks" OR did realize some things were unclear and did not bother to call the witness for clarification.

 

[Eileen730]

I dont think there is a problem with what she was wearing the problem is that it seems no one says the same thing about what she had on and they were all with her....

Mom should know what her daughter was wearing that night more so than Dad or her brothers! JMO

 

[azmary]

IIRC, he only told the "first officer" he knew the family and a time was scheduled for an interview. All other statements were made to the "second officer" who noted that he had volunteered information (in this case, offering the information that he was acquainted with the family) and the interview had been arranged. The first and second officers may have been the same officer, but I can't get a reference (PKT#/PG#) to verify whether the first officer and the second officer were one and the same.

Page 35 packet 1
reporting officer is Massie
This Man inserted himself into this investigation MOO

 

[IHAVENOCLUE]

This is the one that got my attention. I found it very odd that he would of thought to immediately check the tunnels and washouts within 2 hours of her being reported missing.

Further reading in the docs stated the times people left/returned re: work et al and IIRC he actually left prior to 6am. I would need to double check that.

This neighbor searching tunnels, claiming needing to go, of all things, eat breakfast!

Huge Red Flag for me.

was he the person who wouldn't show LE his DL?

Is he married/live with significant other?

would LOVE to hear what his roomie (wife/sig other/ etc.) says/said!

 

[winterrose]

So the Celis' have 4 cars, the investigator took photos of their 4 cars, the 2000 Lexus, 2003 Toyota Corolla, the 2012 Hyundai and the 1988 Acura.

 

[Prof]

I remember that PC, another street mentioned was Craycroft.

Shelby, thanks, do you remember if you posted about the area when I asked right after the presser? I am trying to find the date of that presser specifically...

Anyone?
LE discussed how they were going to focus on a certain neighborhood to go back through in a presser. Dr. Know? Galiuro? Anita? Pieper?

 

[Eileen730]

I wouldn't think they'd have people just coming in to give information sign statements since it is just investigation background and such. He is not supplying a deposition, affidavit, report, or so on

Well dont you think its a good idea to get ppl to sign statements if they are about someone and it has to do with a missing little girls father.

 

[time]

So the Celis' have 4 cars, the investigator took photos of their 4 cars, the 2000 Lexus, 2003 Toyota Corolla, the 2012 Hyundai and the 1988 Acura.

I asked about the Hyundai earlier and speculation was it could have been the guy who gave the son a ride home. Or, I wonder if it was one of the family who had already arrived? If this has already been resolved - Sorry!

 

[cluciano63]

I just wanted to ask a question and make a comment regarding this particular portion of your post. I only loosely or sporadically followed that tragic case, but please anyone feel free to correct me if I am wrong. It has been hashed over the Sierra's was working (so to speak) or in the know with LE regarding the car, did Sierra know this person, etc. Is it possible when she did interviews, she was choosing her words carefully or may have 'looked' like she was trying to hide something due to the simply fact she didn't want to say too much? Just a thought.

I am totally on the fence on this case at this point as well...sometimes I don't even see a fence in cases however, I won't proclaim the parents are innocent because of it, so much as not enough information to have an opinion one way or another. I love to discuss cases & hear people's different opinions. I believe we are all at Websleuths because we either have one or want one (to know more) lol.

Do you mean Rebecca, rather than Sierra?

 

[Eileen730]

So the Celis' have 4 cars, the investigator took photos of their 4 cars, the 2000 Lexus, 2003 Toyota Corolla, the 2012 Hyundai and the 1988 Acura.

Wow what do they do with them all?
maybe keeping one for oldest son for when he drives.