AZ - Isabel Mercedes Celis, 6, Tucson, 20 April 2012 - #21

[gliving]

It's on page 90
http://www.tucsonnewsnow.com/link/563522/pdf-celis-1-blood-on-seat-testimony-from-neighbor

Which packet please? I downloaded them as that link is impossible to scroll. TIA

 

[Azcrabcakes]

If you are having this issue with the ones I put on docstoc - is it all of them?

TRY opening the link in a new window vs a new tab then hit the full screen button and if you side scroll-er is still missing you can use the arrows at the top to change pages.

Here is a direct link to one of my posts that has the links PattyG provided and the links to my alternate docstoc copies.

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - AZ Isabel Mercedes Celis, 6, Tucson, 20 April 2012 Media & Document Dump (No Discussion)

Thank you ANJ... I have not tried in a new window vs. new tab yet. Oddly, when I click on the thumbnail view, I see all te content, and selecting the thumbnail does open the page, text and all. How odd. No time to investigate now. I appreciate the help!

 

[LisaB]

I think that dude name "sources" is related to "I don't know" fella. "I don't know" used to live at my house when my kids were growing up. "I don't know" was responsible for wet towels on the floor, doors left open and odd phone calls among other things whenever I asked "who did that?". But, IMO, it may all be true and "sources" and "I don't know" live in a van down by the river.:waitasec:

Mom? I didn't know you were on WS!

 

[marazul]

All I can add after reading the past 10 pages

Regarding blaming parents of abducted kids for lack of supervision in other cases.. Of course we can't watch our kids 100% of every day. Some kids are allowed a little freedom. The difference is when the lack of supervision is negligent, such as letting a 6 or 7 year old play out int the neighborhood for 4 hours without laying eyes on them or knowing their exact location, or leaving little kids at home at night to go to a long party, things of those nature are inviting trouble. Not relevant to this case, though.

Blood evidence is a hard sell for me. I know some of you aren't fans if personal examples, but here is a personal example. My big girl gets frequent night nosebleeds. She also had a horrible bike fall last summer in thr culdesac by my house, she hobbled into my garage e her friend came in the front door and got me, she was sitting in the garage as I tried to clean her up, and I decided to put her in the car and take her to see if she would need stitches. Normal kid stuff, but bring in a forensic team and you have blood in her bedroom, an actual pool of blood in my garage, and blood in my backseat ( and maybe drivers side, as I was the one cleaning her with a bloody towel). Yes, I clean well and frequently, but still I am sure I didn't erase every possible molecule of blood from my whole property.
Active kids leave DNA around. Unless we are talking about a huge pool of blood that proves death, I am hard to convince.

Oh, and once when my youngest was 9 she wanted to try to shave her legs like her big sister, but didn't want to ask me, so she skinned off a nine inch line of flesh from her shin in my shower, wrapped up in a towel and ran past me ( in my bedroom) to her bedroom because she didn't want to tell me she picked up a razor because I had told her not to touch razors, she sat there bleeding like crazy on her bed for a good five or six minutes before she was scared enough by the blood to run back into my room to tell me what happened, when I saw her I couldn't even tell where the blood was coming from because it was all over her leg, hands, and arm...scared me to death..but that left a pool of blood on her bed, trail to my room, and in my shower.( to this day she is scared of razors and uses cream hair remover)
Sorry to go off topic, but kids bleed and are messy with blood.

I keep thinking if I check WS less, one day I will come back and find real new news, but I guess we were back on the pajama issue again... All I can add is that my girls decided actual pajamas were "lame" around fourth grade and usually sleep in shorts and tanks in the summer and sweats in the winter.

 

[Shelby2]

Well folks, After reviewing ALL of the PDF Dump, I have managed to find one person unrelated to the family that I see as a possible POI... see page 17 of 91 in PDF #3. There are a few entries in PDF #3 about the person mentioned who was walking thru the park from the washes with a mag lite flashlight which cause me to look at him with some questions. I found the PIMA county storm drain map and found that there is a 8 foot diameter tunnel exit south of the park that he may have gone in and from his demeanor in speaking to the officer when he was sighted comming out of the park... I have a feeling he was actually up to no good. JMO but in my mind, this is the first person outside of the family that I found Questionable.

He stood out to me too. Especially the way he abruptly left the conversation because he 'had to eat breakfast'.

 

[A_News_Junkie]

Okay, so this cd thing is bugging me over who it might be, it's personnal cd discs, so I'm assuming computer cds made. JMO I've yet to check who they investigated 4/21, besides the Celis home. There's a report of the storage unit on PDF 6 page 21-23. I condensed the report, so you can see what I'm talking about. The home search was cleared by LE 4/21 at 16:49.

From what I can understand there was a pending situation,(x in pending) made by an Offc Ward 4/21 at 22:24(10:24pm), on page 1 of the 3 page report. Page 2 has the cds marked and Page 3 is 4/22, the next day at 3:45pm, two detectives went into the storage unit for the cds. Now who else, besides the Celis home was searched before 4/21 at 10:24pm that the storage unit could belong to? And is Offc Ward the one who wrote the report finding something about the storage unit and part of the Celis home search or another home?

This bugs me too. Just makes me keep thinking back to Susan Powell and Steve Powell's CD's and DVD's. Wish we knew who owns it!!!!!

 

[Shelby2]

Knox, I know how you like maps, so I made you one.

I think you meant NMd..

Here's the deal.

I remember a presser not too long ago where LE stated they were going to focus on a specific area south of the Celis home. Any local remember that? We discussed the streets they mentioned. I have not looked for it yet, but I remember asking about Wilshire Heights.

I had seen a suspicious activity report on the TPD crime maps the early hours (Friday 2 am) the night before Isa disappeared, right in that same area. This area was in my mind twice before, in other words.

That, and the K9 hit south, and some of the other K9 unit activity south...

Well, I followed the witness in a report JQP pointed out, and found out where he lives. This witness reported a man who was sitting on an electrical box in the alley behind the witness's home at 9 or 930 am the morning of Isa's disappearance. The witness lives just to the east of the park in Wilshire Heights.

THe same officer who took the above report, had been circling the area south of the Celis home and at 10 am encounterd the VW at that same park in Wilshire Heights. He noted the VW was owned by a neighbor of the Celis' which is what flagged his attention, and the officer waited until the guy walked from the south to the north to his car with a mag flashlight.

This guy/neighbor 4 doors down (the house directly east of the RSO) told the officer that he had heard of a missing girl, and thought to check the tunnels in this park? I could perhaps see this kind of searching later in the day, when others are everywhere searching, but the timing seems weird to me here. Then as soon as he's questioned, he's got to go eat breakfast.

Just seems we've come back to this area a few times now.

I have attached the screenshots of reports from PDF 3 page 17 and 18 and the map I made.

ETA added more spots on the map

I remember that PC, another street mentioned was Craycroft.

 

[winterrose]

This bugs me too. Just makes me keep thinking back to Susan Powell and Steve Powell's CD's and DVD's. Wish we knew who owns it!!!!!

I'm looking thru the pdfs to see if that offc was at another home search 4/21.

 

[MBK]

"The girl was with her mother and a friend" according to Isabel's Little League coach who saw her on Friday night. (P. 73, Packet 3) Wonder if that was one of Isabel's friends, the mother's friends? This seems interesting and important to me. And there's nothing like clear writing . . .

 

[impatientredhead]

Guys, is it TYPICAL for the immediate family of a missing child to be told "not to discuss the case amongst themselves"! This is noted TWICE on the report on page 67 of the Packet 2 PDF. Pretty hard to do, wouldn't you say!

It is not that uncommon and it is not a long standing order (which would be unenforceable among other things). During the beginning stages when they are both trying to establish initial interviews/statements and it is probable that a person of interest is monitoring the investigation (as most good sociopaths are known to do). They don't want that person hearing what everyone else is going to say they saw, don't want each others memories contaminating each others, etc...

In a smaller grouping and logistics being in their favor they don't have to "tell" the group not to discuss the case because they just separate everyone to be interviewed and prevent the discussions from occuring. They may do this is an obvious way or they can take one party to a scene to describe what they saw, while party B has to go fill out this form, and they need party C to identify an item. Can be played politically a few ways.

In this case though they had so many people, an active search, and due to the extreme heat in Tucson a colocated shelter that everyone was gathered under.

 

[luvmydogs]

"The girl was with her mother and a friend" according to Isabel's Little League coach who saw her on Friday night. (P. 73, Packet 3) Wonder if that was one of Isabel's friends, the mother's friends? This seems interesting and important to me. And there's nothing like clear writing . . .

I took it to mean, Becky and her friend (maybe another mom). At our kids sporting events the mom's usually sit together and jibber jabber while watching the game. The dads sit together and pay more attention to the game. Esp. if Sergio was coaching he wouldn't be sitting in the stands.

 

[FORDANIEL]

Concerning the blood.....I wonder if Isa's little dog is female,and if she has been spayed??:

 

[winterrose]

NMc, service of a warrant? Was their home searched with a warrant, also?

Note to volunteers for a missing child: Never go out alone when searching for a missing child, take someone with you.

 

[galiuro]

Not in any sort of defense of NMcD, the weird guy in the park, but those tunnels are the first thing I thought of when this hit the news...cuz I know they are there and that it is a loooong tunnel sooo close to the Celis home.

Pity the poor cops who had to check them, ew and ick is all that must be under there...and while I STILL can't find the doc I was really looking for, I'm pretty sure the cops did check them...here's the one I could find, but I am sure there was one that was more detailed, with the phrase 'tunnels...nearly to Rosemont' in it.

http://www.tucsonnewsnow.com/link/563522/pdf-celis-1-blood-on-seat-testimony-from-neighbor

p. 45 of the first pdf as I am technologically illiterate it seems

 

[time]

Concerning the blood.....I wonder if Isa's little dog is female,and if she has been spayed??:

Good point ...

"Luminol tests cannot distinguish between human blood and animal blood."

http://books.google.com/books?id=F9...l presumptive blood test animal blood&f=false

Some or many others can't either ... not sure which ones do if any.

 

[CJMAJORGIRL24]

All I can add after reading the past 10 pages

Regarding blaming parents of abducted kids for lack of supervision in other cases.. Of course we can't watch our kids 100% of every day. Some kids are allowed a little freedom. The difference is when the lack of supervision is negligent, such as letting a 6 or 7 year old play out int the neighborhood for 4 hours without laying eyes on them or knowing their exact location, or leaving little kids at home at night to go to a long party, things of those nature are inviting trouble. Not relevant to this case, though.

Blood evidence is a hard sell for me. I know some of you aren't fans if personal examples, but here is a personal example. My big girl gets frequent night nosebleeds. She also had a horrible bike fall last summer in thr culdesac by my house, she hobbled into my garage e her friend came in the front door and got me, she was sitting in the garage as I tried to clean her up, and I decided to put her in the car and take her to see if she would need stitches. Normal kid stuff, but bring in a forensic team and you have blood in her bedroom, an actual pool of blood in my garage, and blood in my backseat ( and maybe drivers side, as I was the one cleaning her with a bloody towel). Yes, I clean well and frequently, but still I am sure I didn't erase every possible molecule of blood from my whole property.
Active kids leave DNA around. Unless we are talking about a huge pool of blood that proves death, I am hard to convince.

Oh, and once when my youngest was 9 she wanted to try to shave her legs like her big sister, but didn't want to ask me, so she skinned off a nine inch line of flesh from her shin in my shower, wrapped up in a towel and ran past me ( in my bedroom) to her bedroom because she didn't want to tell me she picked up a razor because I had told her not to touch razors, she sat there bleeding like crazy on her bed for a good five or six minutes before she was scared enough by the blood to run back into my room to tell me what happened, when I saw her I couldn't even tell where the blood was coming from because it was all over her leg, hands, and arm...scared me to death..but that left a pool of blood on her bed, trail to my room, and in my shower.( to this day she is scared of razors and uses cream hair remover)
Sorry to go off topic, but kids bleed and are messy with blood.

I keep thinking if I check WS less, one day I will come back and find real new news, but I guess we were back on the pajama issue again... All I can add is that my girls decided actual pajamas were "lame" around fourth grade and usually sleep in shorts and tanks in the summer and sweats in the winter.

I'm sorry for discussing what Isabel was wearing the night she disappeared but I am "new" to Isabel's case. I will try not to bring them up again!!
I would have been here sooner, but I am a student and had finals. Anyways, its not what she wore that bothered me, its the fact noone KNOWS what she wore.

Again, I won't be mentioning the p word again.

 

[MBK]

Ladies and gents, your input on page 31 of Packet 5 would be much appreciated! I see that a residence on 12th Street was searched, and they found a shotgun, camcorder, pellet rifle, etc. Was this at the Celis' residence? Your take on the matter?

By the way, I found it IMPOSSIBLE to navigate the packets, but then I just saved them to my desktop. Works like a charm.

 

[LisaB]

Any official statement given to the police should be read and then signed by the person giving it IMO.

Here in the UK it is standard procedure. Here is a link to the CPS (Crown Prosecution Service)

http://www.cps.gov.uk/victims_witnesses/reporting_a_crime/telling_police.html

I would have thought that the same applies in the US.

Someone asked why the man who claims to have been misquoted would have signed the statement if it was that far off base. I only asked if someone could provide the page and packet numbers, or just verify that they had seen the witness' signature on his statement. IF he signed it, I agree that he is "back-pedaling." If only the officer signed it, then I can't be sure he (MT) saw it after it was prepared, prior to it being released to the world.

 

[eileenhawkeye]

But respectfully that is just not true but how I wish it was true. Marlene spoke out it did not make the allegations any less and Somer Thompson's mom also spoke out continuously and it did not stop the accusations and I could count numerous cases where the parent or parents spoke out and it did not quiten the internet chatter when it came to false accusations. Ed Smart and his brother was accused of everything under the sun pretaining to Elizabeth and that man is as honest as the day is long.

A parent or parents of missing children are no longer supported by society, imo. If their chiild is missing they are immediately assumed to be the enemy within by the majority. I am sure that it has something to do with posters feeling safer if they believe an insider did it rather than a stranger. Or maybe it is because around 400 children are murdered by either their bio mother or father

But I have been on MBs long enough to see how it has change in recent years when it comes to parents with missing children.

IMO

What do you mean by recent? From what I've seen, parents have been considered the prime suspects in these cases since around the mid-90s beginning with Susan Smith and the Ramseys. Prior to that....Well, I think those cases were the start of this "true crime era" in which the general public could be armchair detectives. So IMO, if this case happened in the 90s, people would be even more accusatory towards the parents because we didn't know about real cases where the victim was kidnapped from her/his bedroom by an intruder.

 

[Azcrabcakes]

Which is why I said "I am not sure what she was wearing at the game".

My post was regarding the several posters who ASKED if she were wearing those same clothes at the game, and if so, why would she sleep in them after bathing. And every time someone asks that, the responses are about how it isn't unusual to sleep in shorts! Totally missing the point!

I, personally, would like to see a definitive description not only of what Isa wore to the game, but what she was last seen wearing. That would help in confirming the bedtime timeline and also the shower statements.

I haven't jumped to any conclusions. But that's just me

I think we all take the info presented and ponder it in relation to our own lives. I've read many express concern that Isa wore street clothes to bed, or why would someone sleep on the couch... even why would someone was dishes when a child is missing.

I'm older than most of you, and still going through a learning curve. I work hard on accepting the lifestyles of others.

Today it seems there is a blur between sleepwear and daily wear. I see people in the grocery store, airport, etc. with what I consider pajamas and slippers. I have put my grandkids to bed in soft clothes - knit tee shirt, knit shorts, when mom forgets to bring PJs. You do what you need to do - improvise, do your best with what you have. Actually knit clothes with an elastic waist and stretchy fabric are no different than PJs with soft fabric and an elastic waist! (I still don't like to SEE adults wear PJs and slippers in public.)

Most, if not all of us would not shower and put on the same clothes we had had on, but I have met people who do. I NEVER went to bed in street clothes my entire life - till now. With two auto-immune diseases, and too much daily responsibility, I often fall into bed with my day clothes on.

I find it strange, and in MY mind, wrong, that parents allow small kids to be up at 10 and 11pm. But many, many people do it. The kids are still tired the next morning after getting an inadequate amount of sleep! I believe kids do better with 8 hours of sleep and a routine for meals, bedtime... (and I am not saying a RIGID routine, just an approximate one.) It breaks my heart to hear of so many kids that fall asleep on the floor or couch, to a movie or TV. My mind wants them to be bathed and tucked into bed by a loving parent. They miss that bedtime ritual.

I also know the reality of life, and we are not actors on "Ozzie and Harriet."

Occasionally I do fall asleep on the couch, but I go to bed soon after due to the comfort factor. But I have known people that do fall asleep and stay on the couch all night. I also know many people who get ready for bed and go to bed, BEFORE they are too tired to get off the couch. (That is how I was raised - my parents and grandparents NEVER fell asleep on the couch.)


My point is, we all find certain things in the discussed family's lifestyle, that is suspicious, or NOT suspicious. I think we are all considering these actions as they relate to OUR way of life, and the actions feel odd or wrong, to US. But that is not to say that one way or the other is wrong or right. I just think we all interpret the info as it relates to OUR lives, and that is normal!

Thanks for allowing my rant!