AZ - Isabel Mercedes Celis, 6, Tucson, 20 April 2012 - # 8

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I don´t know, but people in desperat situations somtimes make desperat decisions.




I read on the mothers facebook that she concider herself:
Quote Oct 2011 Rebecca Celis: "Am not very religious"

So that might explain it.
I also read somone posting here on WS that both parents, at their plea, was wearing Rosary beads around their necks but that you are not supposed to wear them like that, and that it kind of revailed that their symbols of faith was not genuin but insted across as a fake showoff.

I don´t know about that, because I´m not a Catholic.

And please know that thise theorie I posted is just one of many different possible senarious IMHO.


If the rosary is worn in reverence, not as jewelry, it is acceptable. I never saw it done until I moved to Tucson. Apparently it is more commonly done in Mexico.

As far as her religiosity, (is that even a word?), I just don't see these parents tossing their daughter's body away.

T.F., I hope I didn't offend you by arguing against your theory, we are all here to discuss ideas and I respect your thoughts! :)
 
For me personally, I continue to consider the possibility that the parents are involved because we've been given no reason not to. Including LE's refusal to clear them. First impressions, gut instincts, reading body language- I think all of those things are important, but they are not enough for me to rule out the parents. At this point, with what we've been given, I suspect the parents just as much as I suspect a total stranger or a relative/family friend. I suspect them until I see reason not to, and we've seen pretty much zero evidence thus far, including evidence that rules them out.

Basically I rule them "in" until I can rule them out. I hope that makes sense.
 
Missed a few pages ( busy being a mommy). Paximus, you said most of what I wanted to say. We think similarly on some issues.

These parents are smart enough to know that any crazy plot like that would come to light, and they have other kids, strong community ties, if it was a set up by them, they would probably be in the media MORE, milking it for donations, this isn't a balloon boy scheme. These aren't those type of parents.

I don't think it was an older brother, either. But IF that had happened, I see them calling 911 and reporting some kind of accident, maybe lessening the involvement of a brother, but not staging a kidnapping. Plus the boys seem like good kids, solid family home, on the right track to successful lives, not bad delinquent kids at all.

And one thing I want to add about the culture of Latinos, and this isn't everyone, it is a generalization, but aside from being somewhat religious, we are superstitious. It would be uncharastic of the Latino community to use their kids for financial gain, or to have their kid on the news as an endangered missing when they know their child is safe. And we help our family. If they were broke or in straits, they have near by family, they would all pitch in and get a cheaper house together before doing something like this. No one has mentioned a lawsuit or bankruptcy fling, a divorce filing, nothing to indicate financial or personal crisis before this. If you are broke, your FIRST game plan isn't staging a kidnapping. Say it was, though, wouldn't they choose an older child who was in on the plan and not scared to death?

And I don't think they are refusing to answer questions, it has not been announced that they have an attorney, LE can ask anything they want, demand answers, and if they refuse, LE can say "the focus is on the family because they are refusing to cooperate with the investigation." have their personal vehicles been confiscated? What REAL information is there that the police suspect them? They haven't elimated them because they apparently are hitting brick walls in every direction.

The reporters need to do some research and ask better questions at the pressers, though, for sure,
 
Either TPD is normally hostile toward victims or they don't consider this family victims, IMO...at least they have never said so, and they are not really treating them as such, again IMO.
 
This is not directed at you at all but I need to vent. lol

What business is it of the media anyway?

What does that have to do with finding Isa and who took her away.

More and more I cant stand the media.

They have become nothing more than bottom feeders, imo.

BBM. I agree. Listening to the NPR description of this case and the sensationalized media is like they're describing two different cases. :moo:
 
If the rosary is worn in reverence, not as jewelry, it is acceptable. I never saw it done until I moved to Tucson. Apparently it is more commonly done in Mexico.

As far as her religiosity, (is that even a word?), I just don't see these parents tossing their daughter's body away.

T.F., I hope I didn't offend you by arguing against your theory, we are all here to discuss ideas and I respect your thoughts! :)

On RC's Facebook, there is a picture of one of her sons wearing a rosary at the busstop for school, well before Isabel was missing. I have seen the rosary worn in vigils and mourning by the older generation, and as fashion by the younger generation.

. And her fb said she is not very religious but she had a good time in church, not just " I am not religious". You kinda took that out of context.
 
Missed a few pages ( busy being a mommy). Paximus, you said most of what I wanted to say. We think similarly on some issues.

These parents are smart enough to know that any crazy plot like that would come to light, and they have other kids, strong community ties, if it was a set up by them, they would probably be in the media MORE, milking it for donations, this isn't a balloon boy scheme. These aren't those type of parents.

I don't think it was an older brother, either. But IF that had happened, I see them calling 911 and reporting some kind of accident, maybe lessening the involvement of a brother, but not staging a kidnapping. Plus the boys seem like good kids, solid family home, on the right track to successful lives, not bad delinquent kids at all.

And one thing I want to add about the culture of Latinos, and this isn't everyone, it is a generalization, but aside from being somewhat religious, we are superstitious. It would be uncharastic of the Latino community to use their kids for financial gain, or to have their kid on the news as an endangered missing when they know their child is safe. And we help our family. If they were broke or in straits, they have near by family, they would all pitch in and get a cheaper house together before doing something like this. No one has mentioned a lawsuit or bankruptcy fling, a divorce filing, nothing to indicate financial or personal crisis before this. If you are broke, your FIRST game plan isn't staging a kidnapping. Say it was, though, wouldn't they choose an older child who was in on the plan and not scared to death?

And I don't think they are refusing to answer questions, it has not been announced that they have an attorney, LE can ask anything they want, demand answers, and if they refuse, LE can say "the focus is on the family because they are refusing to cooperate with the investigation." have their personal vehicles been confiscated? What REAL information is there that the police suspect them? They haven't elimated them because they apparently are hitting brick walls in every direction.

The reporters need to do some research and ask better questions at the pressers, though, for sure,

Is there an applause emoticon here? If there was, I'd use it regarding your post. You are right on and I share your views!
 
M. Klaas says it sends a very bad message that people other the family appear to be doing more to affect Isa's return than they are. He says it's a "sad set of signals that unfortunately in this day and age gets sent out every time a family reacts adversely to the kind of publicity that is inherently thrust upon them in this sort of situation."
 
I apologize if this has already been posted...here is a picture of the floor plan that was shown on NG

redir.aspx
 
The only case I can recall offhand when LE was pretty insistent that they want the family to talk to media is Ayla's and they also made it pretty clear they don't believe the story about the kidnapping. So that kind of bothers me. JMO
 
One of the biggest ways that our media "sensationalizes" these case is by digging up dirt on whomever they feel would make the juiciest perpetrator. In this case it is obviously going to be Sergio. Keeping the case alive in the media should be about Looking for clues to Isa's whereabouts, not speculating that her Dad is not who he claims to be... Or is really out of work... Or whatever the heck NG wants our imaginations to come up with. Sleuthing should be left to us (lol), where at least we have standards and morals... Unlike others... Like NG
 
On RC's Facebook, there is a picture of one of her sons wearing a rosary at the busstop for school, well before Isabel was missing. I have seen the rosary worn in vigils and mourning by the older generation, and as fashion by the younger generation.

. And her fb said she is not very religious but she had a good time in church, not just " I am not religious". You kinda took that out of context.

I didn't mean to take her statement out of context, that's why I inserted the ellipses after the "I am not very religious" statement. I know it wasn't a declarative statement, but rather she had a further point, I just couldn't recall what it was.

I did not see the picture of Junior wearing the rosary, but I honestly don't think them wearing the rosary at their press conference was wrong or being fake.
 
In my very very humble opinion, I have had a theory from the early days of this case, and I would like to share it.
I think that the crime scene looked "fishy" to LE from the get-go, which led to the comment that they hoped the FBI would see it differently. I think LE thinks it was staged, but as of yet cannot find any evidence against the parents. I think LE is convinced that the parents did it, the parents know they feel that way and are extremely frightened of being falsely accused by LE. Which leads them to fear coming out in public. And I do think they may be innocent and uninvolved. I think the Ramsey's were uninvolved in Jon Benet's murder, and in that case, I think the public reacted negatively towards the parents, allowing LE to really try to hang the whole case on Patsy. This is all my rampant speculations, but honestly, I do think LE is empty handed and would like to have the public sentiment turn against the parents. I don't think they are guilty, but maybe they are, but I do know one thing for sure. LE MUST do its job and uncover real EVIDENCE before casting suspicion on anyone. Until then, I prefer to stay on the fence and sympathize with these parents who have lost their baby girl.

You certainly could be right. I know Mark Lunsford and his parents thought they were in the fishbowl too when Jessica went missing and Steve Greone was never ruled out either and left to twist in the wind until Duncan was arrested.

I am sure at first the police didnt believe these children were really taken right out of their home by a stranger predator either. I can understand that for a few days when the investigation is just unfolding but we are way past that now.

In fact I have always wondered if LE had tunnel vision in the Greone case, because they stopped searching for Dylan and Shasta, even though these poor children were out there for 7 weeks with the who had abducted them.

If the police here have tunnel vision that is the worst thing that can happened for Isa.

Imo, they are not finding any evidence concerning her parents because her parents would never ever harm Isa in any manner.

If LE screws this case up and gets tunnel vision, which it certainly seems they are heading that way fast , I will be furious.

It really seems they havent investigated this case much at all.
 
Okay, are you all ready for this?

Nancy is saying she is "getting reports" that there may have been some type of a get-together, "an impromptu party that night after the Little League game".

Nancy says she doesn't see where this would fit into the timeline.
 
Well that is true as a Catholic I wouldnt wear rosary beads around my neck, it seems only the idiots on Jersey Shore do stupid things like that so when I did see the parents doing that I sort of cringed a little but that doesnt make me suspect them of anything.

Correct me if i'm wrong, but didn't Casey Anthony wear rosary beads around her neck!
 
Warning: long post.

My family is devoutly Catholic. In my understanding rosary beads are considered a sacramental and should not be worn as jewelry. However, there are certain jewelry items made to look like rosaries: bracelets are one example. Some people wear these; others do not.

But, not all Catholics hold this to be true. My son attends a Catholic school and had to dress as a Saint for All Saints Day. His costume included a Rosary with a crab attached (He went as Saint Francis Xavier who cast his rosary into the sea to calm the storm. Went the ship safely landed ashore, a crab returned his rosary to him). His first grade teacher (who recently converted to Catholicism) insisted that he had to wear the rosary around his neck. He staunchly refused and took off his costume all together rather than disrespect the rosary.

I have seen rosaries worn as jewelry on many television shows and halloween costumes.

*However, the most important thing here is- why does it matter if the Celis family did this or not? In their culture or their understanding of the Catholic faith, it might not be disrespectful.. and if they didn't know any better.. then what?

****Sorry, to sound snarky-but how does what a family is wearing have any bearing on how or why Isabel disappeared?

Long rant over.
 
Next door neighbor (dog ear-witness) says she didn't notice a party or anyone there that night. But Nancy says that neighbor can't see the front of the Celis' house.
 
How many parents who harm/murder their children have incentive to do so before the very instant they do it? Something could have set one of them off that particular night.

There is a case in the news here where a 2-year-old boy was beaten terribly by his mother's boyfriend. Basically every bone in his body, including his skull, was fractured. The boyfriend's reasoning? The little boy was crying. And the mother, who before this had never done anything wrong, was there and didn't stop any of it. She didn't even call 911 when she realized her baby was unconscious. A neighbor heard the commotion and called.

Yes. These kind of child abuse cases leading to death commonly come from broken/blended family situations, like families where a "new man" is in the picture, and/or families with drug or serious criminal histories exist and/or families that are from a lower, economic demographic, and/or families with prior signs of abuse and neglect, or...seemingly normal families where one parent is suffering from a religious delusion or other mental illness. In the last category, they almost always confess immediately or come up with such a ridiculous story that does not match the facts (like leaving your 2 year old on the side of the road in a car when he's sick, but in the meantime, no one has seen your 2 year old for weeks), that it is impossible to believe them.

I don't see anything in this family thus far, that matches any of those categories. Instead, I see a normal family who appears very into their kids, stable jobs and very active. They don't fit the profile, IMO.

Kevin Fox, Riley's dad...comes to mind. In trying to cooperate with LE, without attorney (because innocent people do not need attorneys) Kevin Fox was coerced into confessing to his daughter's murder. Problem: He was innocent.

Innocent people do confess all the time. However, Kevin Fox is the only case I can think of where a parent falsely confessed in the case of a MISSING child. I'm sure there have been others but in the case of missing kids, false confessions are certainly not common.

And let me be clear. Sometimes, LE are nutso. Like in the case of Tonya Craft. Sometimes they just frame a person or hone in on the wrong person and arrest the innocent. That's why I would never counsel a client to speak with LE without an attorney present.

But we are not talking about what is prudent to do in such a case, to avoid being falsely accused and wrongfully convicted. We are talking about the typical behavior of innocent parents in the days right after their child has gone missing. And innocent parents are not thinking about Kevin Fox. They are thinking about their child and are desperate to do whatever it takes to get them back.

Innocent parents are not thinking, "Gee, now my darling child has disappeared but before I rush to do whatever the police - you know those people who are there to help others, to solve crime, who are supposed to protect and serve - ask of me, before I answer their questions, I better stop and think because yeah, I suddenly recall that one case, that Kevin Fox case. That could happen to me."

No. Innocent parents are not thinking about what could happen to themselves. They are thinking about what could be happening to their kids. I'm basing this on having studied countless of these cases over the years and examining how people in general react to crisis. I would be highly suspicious of anyone whose thoughts, in the first days, go right to attorneys, rather than to assisting LE in finding their child.

The command center was in the parking lot on the northeast side of the Office Max.

Thank you! But, northeast is hard to understand for someone directionally challenged like me! It would be great if someone could take Theforeigner's post below and add in an icon or something, where the command center was and where the police cars were parked. I really need a visual!:

Here you go:

Isabelcelis.jpg



IsabelCelismapofunidentifyedpersons130AM-1.jpg



Isabelceliscloseupimage-2.jpg

Did JVM just say a CADAVER dog got a hit??

Did I miss something? Has it already been said what the dog hit on? I thought they weren't releasing what it was one of the dogs hit on?

Total insinuation on her part. It was never stated by LE that the dogs "hit" at all. "Received information from the dogs" could as easily mean a cadaver dog failed to hit in the house. And let me tell you, if info came out that a cadaver dog DID hit on something in that house, my opinion would change in a flash.
 
Okay, are you all ready for this?

Nancy is saying she is "getting reports" that there may have been some type of a get-together, "an impromptu party that night after the Little League game".

Nancy says she doesn't see where this would fit into the timeline.
LOL, and a well qualified statement at that! "May have been..."
 
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