AZ - Timothy Romans, 39, & Vincent Romero, 29, slain, St Johns, 5 Nov 2008 - #1

[Lyn1001]

I've been keeping up with this thread and feel the need to put in my two cents.

In regards to the divorce, IIRC, it happened when he was 2. That's 6 years ago. He probably does not have much recall of it. It sounds as if he was primarily raised by his father, and now his step-mother. I don't think he necessarily has issues from the divorce. Divorce, like many other things, seems to be blamed for a lot of things. Blaming divorce is a very touchy subject for me, so I apologize if I'm coming across snippy. There are "norms" and "exceptions" in every situation, just because a kid is from a divorced home, does not mean that he has negative feelings about it.

My next opinion is in regards to bio mom saying that step-mom always had to be in the room during phone calls. If that is true, it could possibly be because bio mom would have inappropirate conversations with the child. Not saying that's the reason, but it is something to consider.

When it comes to an 8 year old child committing a crime like this, it is hard to understand. Everyone wants there to be a reason. It's hard to wrap your head around something like this. But sometimes, there isn't a reason. I have known young children who appear perfectly normal and happy, but who could kill someone without batting an eye.

If the child was abused or anything, I do have sympathy. I do not think that is a reason to kill someone, but I do have sympathy. However, I do not think that just because a child kills someone means that he was abused or that he was not raised properly.

Okay, I'm off my soapbox now. =) Just felt the need to share my opinon (and I do respect everyone's opinon on here, everyone comes at a situation from their own experiences, which is why there are so many opinions!).

 

[oceanblueeyes]

Hi Fairy,

I haven't seen any lack of empathy in OBE's posts on this subject. To me, she comes across as objective but not non-empathetic to the child, IMHO.

Just my 2 cents!

Thank you. I have always tried to be a strong advocate for murdered victims for as long as I have been on message boards, which is a very long time.lol At times I have seen them crushed into the dirt and blamed for their own death even before all the facts come out.

I see no reason why these murders should have happened. I see no excuse reasonable enough to assume that at this time. Anger can never be a reasonable reason to kill other people imo.

I do believe that this boy should be punished for the acts he committed against humanity. If he is tried in Juvenile Court then that is fine with me and it will be up to a Judge to mete out his punishment.

He must be held accountable because if not then there will be no record ever showing he murdered two people nor will any Judge be able to stipulate and impose that he is to get extensive mental therapy treatment while incarcerated.

I still do not think he will be tried as an adult but could be mistaken about that. It will depend on what the psychiatrist determines.

imoo

 

[MeoW333]

OBE - do you believe this child is a sociopath? You clearly have no empathy for him. What do you believe led to this outcome? He has no obviously violent past or disciplinary issues outside the home. What do YOU believe led to this end? Just curious. I don't believe it's unreasonable for people to be looking for a reasonable explanation here. I'm quite sure no one wants to believe an 8 year old is a cold-blooded murderer. This was not a sexually deviant crime, so the Joseph Duncan reference is really not relevant...IMO.

Fairy1 i agree; and have asked her before why is she so quick to hang the child? Between that and further personalizing the victim by referring to him as "Vinnie".
We all have to realize the boy is a victim as well as those he killed. He's 8 years old for crying out loud. Not to mention in such a small rural area he has shown no prior signs of sociopathy; which i would assume would have come to light well before now as the whole town knows each other. They aren't supporting the boy; yet they're not speaking badly about him either.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

Fairy1 i agree; and have asked her before why is she so quick to hang the child? Between that and further personalizing the victim by referring to him as "Vinnie".
We all have to realize the boy is a victim as well as those he killed. He's 8 years old for crying out loud. Not to mention in such a small rural area he has shown no prior signs of sociopathy; which i would assume would have come to light well before now as the whole town knows each other. They aren't supporting the boy; yet they're not speaking badly about him either.

I am puzzled by your inference MeoW.

Maybe I am mistaken but wasn't Laci, Lana, Shasta, Dylan, Slade and many countless other murder victims called by their first names? Why should Vinnie or Tim being excluded from that list?

 

[MeoW333]

It is WAY over the top as the first symptom of an emotional disturbance...tells me that he was enormously bottled up....I think he planned this (if it was planned) during moments of extreme frustration, and this latest spanking was likely the trigger to set it in motion.

Chief Melnick said that as well (right before the gag order); in other words:

"Melnick, in a phone interview with the Herald before the gag order was issued yesterday, said trying the child as an adult is an option, but added: “I don’t think it’s an option we would explore.”
The motive, Melnick said, is unclear.
“It’s hard to get into an 8-year-old’s mind. There’s something that triggered this,” said Melnick, who resigned as chief of police in Ashland in 2006."

 

[MeoW333]

I am puzzled by your inference MeoW.

Maybe I am mistaken but wasn't Laci, Lana, Shasta, Dylan, Slade and many countless other murder victims called by their first names? Why should Vinnie or Tim being excluded from that list?

His first name is Vincent. He's an adult. I'm not sure where i saw the reference to Vinnie; forgive me for my ignorance if i have missed it..

 

[MsPooh]

Does the fact that noone will take this child in..stand behind him...support hm..tell us anything at all? We have ALL of these people that talk about what a great guy Dad was...maybe he was, I didn't know him personally..but I have heard of way too many cases where the child was mistreated behind closed doors in the most sadistic ways imagineable...by the people who were supposed to love them no matter what..yet noone knew..never saw the signs..couldn't see the forest for the trees...the most well behaved children you would ever meet ..because the conditioning has been there all of their lives..not all abuse leaves marks, signs..that you could visibly see anyway..and the only time we will ever hear about what a "GREAT" parent they WERE is when the levee breaks. If he is just plain evil..and did this on a spur of the moment. because of swats for missing papers..there would have been signs and behavior problems long before this.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

His first name is Vincent. He's an adult. I'm not sure where i saw the reference to Vinnie; forgive me for my ignorance if i have missed it..

I have read it on other sites from people who live in the same town and really what is wrong with calling him what he went by? I just don't get why you think that is so bad.

I go by my nick name too not my given name and I am way older than Vinnie was.

imoo

 

[MeoW333]

I do understand perfectly why others want to blame someone else other than the defendant in this case. It makes it much more acceptable and I have never said that anyone is not entitled to their own opinions and never will, however; I am also entitled to my own opinion.
imoo

OBE, the boy is obviously guilty and will be punished by the law in one form or another.
I, myself just want to know why the boy would do that without showing prior signs of being a sociopath or having problems. In such a small town, any problems he would have had would be more noticed than in a bigger city. Everyone knew each other in that town. So i am looking objectively at his background to see if any clues yield us anything. I have empathy for the victims as well as the boy. He just lost everyone who may have cared about him. We don't see any of the many relatives in that town coming to get him. They're not sticking up for him and they're also not speaking out against him. You'd think if he's shown bad behavior in the past, some of his relatives would have mentioned it. All we know is his birth mother is unfit as a mother. Also the timing of the shootings; she had just left from a visit with him.

 

[MeoW333]

I have read it on other sites from people who live in the same town and really what is wrong with calling him what he went by? I just don't get why you think that is so bad.

I go by my nick name too not my given name and I am way older than Vinnie was.

imoo

I was just wondering as a nickname is personal and would be used by those that knew the victim informally.
You can refer to him by whatever you want; it's a free country.
It may me wonder though as most newspapers reported his birth name as "Vincent". Referring to him by his nickname would further personalize the victim (which is not a bad thing). I just wondered the intent behind it. For all we know; the boy's name may be Vinnie Jr.
I commend you in looking at this case very objectively.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

Does the fact that noone will take this child in..stand behind him...support hm..tell us anything at all? We have ALL of these people that talk about what a great guy Dad was...maybe he was, I didn't know him personally..but I have heard of way too many cases where the child was mistreated behind closed doors in the most sadistic ways imagineable...by the people who were supposed to love them no matter what..yet noone knew..never saw the signs..couldn't see the forest for the trees...the most well behaved children you would ever meet ..because the conditioning has been there all of their lives..not all abuse leaves marks, signs..that you could visibly see anyway..and the only time we will ever hear about what a "GREAT" parent they WERE is when the levee breaks. If he is just plain evil..and did this on a spur of the moment. because of swats for missing papers..there would have been signs and behavior problems long before this.

There were over 800 people at VINCENT's funeral. I highly doubt they are all in some type of conspiracy to suppress anything. It was said that the family has many family members living there. 114 cousins, iirc which also means that there are uncles and aunts who live there too imo..... and I believe the Romero grandparents live there also. Not sure if the bio mom has any relatives left in AZ but since she seemed to have lived there years ago there may be. With Vincent being Catholic I think most likely he comes from a large family who is very close to each other.

We have seen countless cases where there was no red flags until the ultimate act of homicide occurred. So having to see red flags does not have to happen first for this to happen. There has to be a first time for everything.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

I was just wondering as a nickname is personal and would be used by those that knew the victim informally.
You can refer to him by whatever you want; it's a free country.
It may me wonder though as most newspapers reported his birth name as "Vincent". Referring to him by his nickname would further personalize the victim (which is not a bad thing). I just wondered the intent behind it. For all we know; the boy's name may be Vinnie Jr.
I commend you in looking at this case very objectively.

I read a post last night from a citizen who lives there that the boy's name is <redacted>. I cannot verify that of course but her ISP did show the same town.

imo

 

[southcitymom]

Does the fact that noone will take this child in..stand behind him...support hm..tell us anything at all? We have ALL of these people that talk about what a great guy Dad was...maybe he was, I didn't know him personally..but I have heard of way too many cases where the child was mistreated behind closed doors in the most sadistic ways imagineable...by the people who were supposed to love them no matter what..yet noone knew..never saw the signs..couldn't see the forest for the trees...the most well behaved children you would ever meet ..because the conditioning has been there all of their lives..not all abuse leaves marks, signs..that you could visibly see anyway..and the only time we will ever hear about what a "GREAT" parent they WERE is when the levee breaks. If he is just plain evil..and did this on a spur of the moment. because of swats for missing papers..there would have been signs and behavior problems long before this.

This is one of my sticky points, MsPooh - but it heads primarily in the direction of the child's bio mother who abandoned him to authorities and left the state after he did this.....another abandonment in a series of abandonments by her I think.

He did have one parent who seemed to love him and want to take him in - but that man is dead at the child's hands.

I cannot say I fault the stepmom for not wanting to take him - it's a bit too much to hope for, I think, as he killed her husband.

Many folks may well be afraid of this child and I understand that also. If you lived in this community and knew and cared about this child and his family and then he killed his Dad and another man with some amount of forethought, would you bring this child into your home?

I don't know that I would and my heart literally bleeds as much for people who murder as people who are murdered.

Evil is not a word I really bandy about and I sure as hell am not going to apply it to an 8-year-old. I tend to view people as broken to one degree or another and very broken people sometimes do evil things.

That said, without knowing more, I think it is completely fair to consider that this child might be a sociopath and that considering this does not mean any poster here is throwing the child away and not giving a damn about him. IMHO.

A little off subject, but I always wonder why we aren't as quick to jump to kind conclusions when an 18 year old or a 30 year old or a 45 year old kills two people....at what age do we stop caring to hold out hope for people who do terrible things and just start calling them names?

 

[southcitymom]

I've been keeping up with this thread and feel the need to put in my two cents.

In regards to the divorce, IIRC, it happened when he was 2. That's 6 years ago. He probably does not have much recall of it. It sounds as if he was primarily raised by his father, and now his step-mother. I don't think he necessarily has issues from the divorce. Divorce, like many other things, seems to be blamed for a lot of things. Blaming divorce is a very touchy subject for me, so I apologize if I'm coming across snippy. There are "norms" and "exceptions" in every situation, just because a kid is from a divorced home, does not mean that he has negative feelings about it.

My next opinion is in regards to bio mom saying that step-mom always had to be in the room during phone calls. If that is true, it could possibly be because bio mom would have inappropirate conversations with the child. Not saying that's the reason, but it is something to consider.

When it comes to an 8 year old child committing a crime like this, it is hard to understand. Everyone wants there to be a reason. It's hard to wrap your head around something like this. But sometimes, there isn't a reason. I have known young children who appear perfectly normal and happy, but who could kill someone without batting an eye.

If the child was abused or anything, I do have sympathy. I do not think that is a reason to kill someone, but I do have sympathy. However, I do not think that just because a child kills someone means that he was abused or that he was not raised properly.

Okay, I'm off my soapbox now. =) Just felt the need to share my opinon (and I do respect everyone's opinon on here, everyone comes at a situation from their own experiences, which is why there are so many opinions!).

Thanks for your perspective, Lyn. I agree with a lot of it and it didn;t come off as soap-boxy to me...or any more soapboxy than me, I should say!!

The bottom line is we all really want to understand why and so we have to look at everything. Divorce does often screw kids up (though your point about his age at the time of the divorce is a good one) - my parents divorce certainly screwded me and my siblings up for a while. However - divorce does not often lead to an 8 year old engaging in this level of brutality.

 

[Linda7NJ]

OBE - do you believe this child is a sociopath? You clearly have no empathy for him. What do you believe led to this outcome? He has no obviously violent past or disciplinary issues outside the home. What do YOU believe led to this end? Just curious. I don't believe it's unreasonable for people to be looking for a reasonable explanation here. I'm quite sure no one wants to believe an 8 year old is a cold-blooded murderer. This was not a sexually deviant crime, so the Joseph Duncan reference is really not relevant...IMO.

I think we need a reason for it to make sense to us. So we feel better.

The truth is, murder..........never really makes sense.

My son, when he was 8 would every once in awhile do something so stupid it could never be explained. When you ask a child "why" and they respond, "I don't know" in my experience...they mean it. There was no real thought process going on when dumb stuff happens.

In this case....he planned it. That's scary. It wasn't like he was suffering from intermittent explosive disorder, he wasn't delusional, he wasn't in immediate danger. He was thinking, planning....and he killed twice. The second time he lured. That's scary!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[southcitymom]

I think we need a reason for it to make sense to us. So we feel better.

The truth is, murder..........never really makes sense.

My son, when he was 8 would every once in awhile do something so stupid it could never be explained. When you ask a child "why" and they respond, "I don't know" in my experience...they mean it. There was no real thought process going on when dumb stuff happens.

In this case....he planned it. That's scary. It wasn't like he was suffering from intermittent explosive disorder, he wasn't delusional, he wasn't in immediate danger. He was thinking, planning....and he killed twice. The second time he lured. That's scary!!!!!!!!!!!

Excellent post! :clap:

 

[twinkiesmom]

A little off subject, but I always wonder why we aren't as quick to jump to kind conclusions when an 18 year old or a 30 year old or a 45 year old kills two people....at what age do we stop caring to hold out hope for people who do terrible things and just start calling them names?

Because the 18-45 year old is completely in charge of his own destiny, whereas this 8-year-old was completely under the control of his dad and stepmom until the trigger was pulled.

If Vincent truly is Father of the Year material, then there is something wrong elsewhere (i.e, the school, or the kid's brain).

I can't write off an 8-year-old as a sociopath because I've raised 8-year-olds and know that their thinking is often not logical enough to be responsible for their actions.

We don't know what was in his head. I had a child go through a severe depression recently re: schoolwork and in talking things out with him, he actually believed his middle school grades would prevent him from getting into college. I have another child the same age who actually worries about being able to purchase a house when she's older.

I think it's entirely possible there there is some "stinking thinking" involved in this 8-year-old's head that led to this crime. We don't know what the home environment was...only the three people living there do. All parents put their best foot forward in public. Some kids are extremely sensitive...I have one who melts when I use a stern tone of voice, claims I am yelling at him.

 

[Trino]

What makes me concerned about the boy's mental stability (other than how he planned the crime) is that I have not read anywhere that he has shown remorse, only that he was scared. The hearing indicated that he swayed and rocked in his chair, that he asked for kisses to put into his pocket from his mother. BUT, no remorse. Certainly, at 8, he understands the permance of death.

 

[southcitymom]

What makes me concerned about the boy's mental stability (other than how he planned the crime) is that I have not read anywhere that he has shown remorse, only that he was scared. The hearing indicated that he swayed and rocked in his chair, that he asked for kisses to put into his pocket from his mother. BUT, no remorse. Certainly, at 8, he understands the permance of death.

I read stuff like that and it tears me up.

Honestly, I imagine this child is in shock. I think an 8-year-old does and doesn't understand the permanence of death, if that makes any sense.

The legal system is so foreign - even to many adults. God, this case is painful.

 

[MsPooh]

I read stuff like that and it tears me up.

Honestly, I imagine this child is in shock. I think an 8-year-old does and doesn't understand the permanence of death, if that makes any sense.

The legal system is so foreign - even to many adults. God, this case is painful.

Makes perfect sense to me . When they see someone in a casket, we tell them they "went to sleep" or are "gone to heaven"..or numerous other things people choose to say to kids. To actually cause the death is on a whole different level...IMHO..I don't see how they can comprehend it. And absolutely, this case is very painful. He should be made to understand what has happened and that he did cause it to happen. He will need YEARS of therapy and counseling. But I do not think that jail will "teach him a lesson".