GUILTY Bali - Sheila von Wiese Mack, 62, found dead in suitcase, 12 Aug 2014 #4

[Orange Tabby]

If the case gets thrown out, is that basically an acquittal? And if it's not can they be tried in the U.S.? Or can they already? Sorry, I'm not familiar with the technicalities of the law.I know there was talk of a wrongful death suit, but is that the harshest it can get?

Here’s how I see it:

Day one of the trial consisted of the prosecution reading out their indictment, including the specific articles of the criminal code which each defendant is accused of violating. They seem to have offered a brief account of how and why the murder took place, and not only physically brought their evidence into court, but reported what the evidence was and what it showed.

Day two of the trial consisted of the defense reading out their “defense statement” which seemed to have consisted of at least two distinct parts. First, their allegations that the indictment is flawed along with their argument to the judge that the charges be dismissed. Second, their attacks on some of the evidence, notably the text messages, arguing that because manipulation was possible, this evidence should be thrown out of the trial.

I’m guessing, and it is merely a guess, that this is how serious trials always begin in Indonesia. First with the indictment and summary of the case against the defendant(s) and, after a brief period (in this case, a week), the reply by defense lawyers.

I assume it is typical for the defense to ask that the indictment be thrown out and that it is typical for the defense to try and get as much evidence as possible excluded.

So far, what has transpired looks to me like what would be pre-trial proceedings in the U.S. If that is so, and should the judges throw out the indictment, then it seems to me that jeopardy has not yet attached to either defendant. So it would not be an acquittal. That is significant because:

1. It would not rule out the Indonesian authorities gathering more evidence (I saw no clear mention of FBI evidence in the early reports) and coming before judges a second time with the same or slightly different charges.

2. If Bali authorities don’t want to pursue (1), then it would open up the possibility for a criminal trial in the U.S. which included murder charges (not merely conspiracy charges) assuming some prosecutor (either state of Illinois or federal) wanted to pursue this and assuming that there is a legal avenue which affords this prosecutor (either in Illinois or federal law) the ability to lay down a murder charge when the actual murder took place in Bali. (This simply may not be possible, I have no idea.)

3. It allows William Wiese to go before Judge Cohen and argue that Heather’s life is no longer in jeopardy (because the charges have been dropped) and so there is no longer a conflict of interest in his administering Sheila’s trust as per Sheila’s expressed wish.

4. It allows William Wiese to proceed immediately with a wrongful death action in civil court against Heather.

Both my points (1) and (2) above would seem to be wrong if Indonesian law considers jeopardy to attach from the moment the prosecution first puts forward its claim for a defendant’s guilt in court, that is from the first day of the trial.

I am not a lawyer, so all of this is guesswork by a mere layman.

Too bad there are no reporters interviewing lawyers who could actually make informed comment on these matters.

 

[SouthAussie]

2. If Bali authorities don’t want to pursue (1), then it would open up the possibility for a criminal trial in the U.S. which included murder charges (not merely conspiracy charges) assuming some prosecutor (either state of Illinois or federal) wanted to pursue this and assuming that there is a legal avenue which affords this prosecutor (either in Illinois or federal law) the ability to lay down a murder charge when the actual murder took place in Bali. (This simply may not be possible, I have no idea.).

I can't imagine why this would not be possible - although I am obviously not familiar with statutes in Illinois.

I think we have spoken of the case of US citizen Tina Watson's murder while scuba diving here in Australia before. Her husband, Gabe Watson, was given an outrageously short sentence for her murder-reduced-to-manslaughter by the Queensland courts. The state of Alabama took him to court again, for murder. Unfortunately, though, an Alabama judge dismissed his case for lack of evidence.

This case outraged many Australians, as well as Tina's family in the US. He did 18 months (!!!) here in Australia for killing Tina, and has since married a Tina look-alike and lives as a free man in the US. Not sure what happened with the life insurance money .. hoping that it went to Tina's parents.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Tina_Watson

 

[ajaylee]

If the US media gets interested in this story in a big way, I think it would encourage US authorities to look into it. A high publicity, easy-to-understand scandalous case with the potential to make them look like heroes if HM gets off in Bali.

 

[Kamille]

If the US media gets interested in this story in a big way, I think it would encourage US authorities to look into it. A high publicity, easy-to-understand scandalous case with the potential to make them look like heroes if HM gets off in Bali.

I don't think it requires media attention for the U.S. authorities to deal with this case should HM get off without charges. It only requires the LE agencies who are already involved to do what would be legally expected of them. Which at this point I have no idea what that might be. Lol

MOO

 

[Kamille]

I still want to know why the "lawyer" that HM hired and insisted on keeping, who was apparently at the courthouse with her last week, was not in the courtroom arguing her case.

Very suspicious.

MOO

 

[SouthAussie]

I still want to know why the "lawyer" that HM hired and insisted on keeping, who was apparently at the courthouse with her last week, was not in the courtroom arguing her case.

Very suspicious.

MOO

Yep, nothing like publicly distancing yourself from a case, while continuing to collect the 'attorney fees' from the client.

I did a little looking around for info on HM's court lawyer, Novi Wirani. Not a lot out there that I could find, but I did find one article that mentions her name and a lawyer called Ary (no last name) - but I would bet it is Ary Soenardi - seemingly working together.

Google translation:
"The victim's lawyers, Ary through Ni Kadek Sri Novi Wirani, the victim's lawyer also said that, to this day it is also no notification of Bali Adventure Rafting own related disbursement of such insurance.
According to Ni Kadek, Ary now being overseas, leave a message, continue to pursue and contact the BAR to immediately disburse ansuransi victim."

http://translate.google.com.au/tran...bali.com/konjen-india-no-comment/&prev=search


Novi Wirani:
https://twitter.com/noviwirani
https://plus.google.com/114478829997632912729/posts
http://ink361.com/app/users/ig-251641196/noviwirani/photos

 

[Kamille]

Another recent case for AS. Word is travelling about him...

https://nz.news.yahoo.com/a/-/top-stories/25804485/bali-drug-accused-to-defend-charges/

Have ANY of his clients received a stiff sentence? And why is his name only coming up in cases of foreigners with money?

MOO

 

[Orange Tabby]

Yep, nothing like publicly distancing yourself from a case, while continuing to collect the 'attorney fees' from the client.

I did a little looking around for info on HM's court lawyer, Novi Wirani. Not a lot out there that I could find, but I did find one article that mentions her name and a lawyer called Ary (no last name) - but I would bet it is Ary Soenardi - seemingly working together.

[SBM]

Strangely enough, two articles listed as having been published in the Sydney Morning Herald on the same day in July of last year, both by Micheal Bachelard, have a wide variety of ways of treating Ary Soenardi's name.

One of articles calls him Mr. Ary and nothing else. The other calls him Ary Soenardi and then later, Soenardy.

I think your Mr. Ary is indeed Ary Soenardi. I also think that some Indoensians when they go by a single name with a title (e.g. Mr.) actually use the first of their multiple names. (I recall that this was the case for one of the cops regularly quoted in the early days of the investigation.) But I don't think everyone does this. And some Indonesians go by only a single name. Very confusing.

Here are the Bachelard articles, about how Leeza Ormsby got off with a light sentence:

http://www.smh.com.au/world/leeza-o...off-a-drug-charge-lightly-20140702-zstsq.html

http://www.smh.com.au/world/leeza-o...r-drug-possession-in-bali-20140702-zstt8.html

 

[Orange Tabby]

I still want to know why the "lawyer" that HM hired and insisted on keeping, who was apparently at the courthouse with her last week, was not in the courtroom arguing her case.

Very suspicious.

MOO

The Indonesian press reported that the proceedings took only about 20 minutes. (I don't remember if the English language reports confirm this.) That's ten minutes per defendant.

Since it appears that all the defense lawyer did in each case was read out -- word for word -- a statement, there's no reason why an underling shouldn't have taken on this task for the apparently very busy Ari Soenardi. It's possible even the most honest lawyers send in the juniors for this kind of thing.

Just a thought.

 

[Suthrnqt]

Subscribing....

 

[Kamille]

The Indonesian press reported that the proceedings took only about 20 minutes. (I don't remember if the English language reports confirm this.) That's ten minutes per defendant.

Since it appears that all the defense lawyer did in each case was read out -- word for word -- a statement, there's no reason why an underling shouldn't have taken on this task for the apparently very busy Ari Soenardi. It's possible even the most honest lawyers send in the juniors for this kind of thing.

Just a thought.

Except I believe the reports indicated that he was there at the courthouse and even brought her a McDonald's beverage. :dunno:

MOO

 

[FigTree]

Looking at that bottom picture, it just occurred to me that strategically, TS's lawyers would have told him he should show remorse and emotion in front of the judges. So those tears are probably really working in his favour for a more lenient sentence.

MOO

I would absolutely agree with this - he has no money to secure anything but a death sentence.
I see no millionaires or cashed up murderers on Death Row.
On the other hand, HM has money - she has no need to act remorseful - she's seems confident that she will get off.
I wonder if she had promised TS money for killing her mother. Was TS the $50k hit man she hired?

 

[ajaylee]

Tommy's tears: I don't believe he's faking it. I do believe he's depressed, but this has been going on for months. He didn't break down when he and HM met at the prosecutor's and he was OK on the first day of the trial. It leaves me wondering what happened between the first and second days of the trial that left him so upset?

Could it be because his mother confirmed his worst fears: that HM is paying for HM's defense and the only way HM can protect her interests is by throwing TS under the bus? TS may or may not be following the news, but if his mom is, she knows that HM can't use her mother's money to pay bribes for TS.

Or did his mom leave? I know they weren't on good terms in recent years, possibly because she (understandably) didn't approve of some of his choices, like dropping out of two colleges and working for an escort service and selling dope. Still...she was someone from back home that he could trust to have his back, even if that only means emotional comfort. I don't think TS's mom has the financial resources to stay in Bali, even living modestly, for several months.

Re: the $50K offer for a hitman. HM thought TS was such a streetwise tough that he had connections and a hitman on speed-dial. TS was morally capable of the crime, but he wouldn't want to risk getting caught. And then....eureka! SWM books the Bali vacation and HM suggests that killing SWM in Bali will save them $50K. All they have to do is hide the evidence long enough to get out of Bali. JMO.

Re: Soenardi. I've even seen the name spelled 'Sunardi'. IIUC, he bribes prosecutors and judges. He was involved in the case of Julian Ponder (aka 'Mr. Big', drugs), and it appears that perhaps the lion's share of the bribes may have gone to the prosecutor. Ponder ended up being charged with a crime that only carried a 5-7 year sentence range, with a 5-year minimum. He wasn't happy when he got 6 years, but Suenardi pointed out that it wasn't the max (7 years), a very light sentence, and would not be appealed. I don't think Ponder's happy - he bragged before the trial, I think he paid a LOT of money and didn't expect to serve any time at all. That said, the prosecution only brought him up on a very minor charge in light of what he had actually been doing. There really wasn't much more the judges could have done: let him off completely free or give him 5-7 years.

I think Ponder went for the 'bribe' immediately - before the prosecution filed charges. Even if the judges gave him the max, he was only getting 7 years. I don't think HM hooked up with Soenardi until later in the process, too late to bribe the prosecution to drop any charges related to 'pre-meditation'. I think it's all on the judges now.

JMO

 

[Curious Me]

Do they keep the once a week trial schedule throughout the whole trial?

 

[gracehatter]

Tommy's tears: I don't believe he's faking it. I do believe he's depressed, but this has been going on for months. He didn't break down when he and HM met at the prosecutor's and he was OK on the first day of the trial. It leaves me wondering what happened between the first and second days of the trial that left him so upset?

Could it be because his mother confirmed his worst fears: that HM is paying for HM's defense and the only way HM can protect her interests is by throwing TS under the bus? TS may or may not be following the news, but if his mom is, she knows that HM can't use her mother's money to pay bribes for TS.

Or did his mom leave? I know they weren't on good terms in recent years, possibly because she (understandably) didn't approve of some of his choices, like dropping out of two colleges and working for an escort service and selling dope. Still...she was someone from back home that he could trust to have his back, even if that only means emotional comfort. I don't think TS's mom has the financial resources to stay in Bali, even living modestly, for several months.

I don't think he is faking it either and I thought his Mom would probably give him a heaping dose of the gravity and reality of his situation once she arrived, obviously she could do it in the way only as our mothers can. As his mother I have no doubt she knows TS better than anyone and has a good idea of just how he found himself immersed in this quagmire with the puppetmaster HM.

RE: The escorting claim. I remember reading a post where someone indicated they had found an ad of his but don't recall seeing it even though I do remember searching for it. Can someone direct me to the confirmation please?

 

[nightwatch]

I don't think he is faking it either and I thought his Mom would probably give him a heaping dose of the gravity and reality of his situation once she arrived, obviously she could do it in the way only as our mothers can. As his mother I have no doubt she knows TS better than anyone and has a good idea of just how he found himself immersed in this quagmire with the puppetmaster HM.

RE: The escorting claim. I remember reading a post where someone indicated they had found an ad of his but don't recall seeing it even though I do remember searching for it. Can someone direct me to the confirmation please?

TS was in this crime up to his weepy eyeballs. I don't think it took all that much from HM, TS is a free loader. I can't imagine what his mother said to him. Smh

Updated article on HM

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...e-pregnant-teen-vows-bring-baby-daughter.html


ciao

 

[gracehatter]

TS was in this crime up to his weepy eyeballs. I don't think it took all that much from HM, TS is a free loader. I can't imagine what his mother said to him. Smh


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...e-pregnant-teen-vows-bring-baby-daughter.html

I didn't say I did not think he was not involved nor innocent obviously, as they say in the law "In for a penny, in for a pound". I do think however, this is one of those crimes that falls into the category where criminologists would suggest that had TS not met HM, it is not likely he would have murdered someone but that's just my opinion. I can imagine his mother gave him some straight talk along the lines of "The best we can hope for at this point is that they don't kill your sorry Black *advertiser censored* and you get off with life in prison and if you are not telling the truth about HM's role, you better start telling now". If she is anything like the many Black women I know, I'm guessing that is pretty much what she said.

 

[nightwatch]

I didn't say I did not think he was not involved nor innocent obviously, as they say in the law "In for a penny, in for a pound". I do think however, this is one of those crimes that falls into the category where criminologists would suggest that had TS not met HM, it is not likely he would have murdered someone but that's just my opinion. I can imagine his mother gave him some straight talk along the lines of "The best we can hope for at this point is that they don't kill your sorry Black *advertiser censored* and you get off with life in prison and if you are not telling the truth about HM's role, you better start telling now". If she is anything like the many Black women I know, I'm guessing that is pretty much what she said.

Lol! Love it YSBA.

ciao

 

[ajaylee]

I didn't say I did not think he was not involved nor innocent obviously, as they say in the law "In for a penny, in for a pound". I do think however, this is one of those crimes that falls into the category where criminologists would suggest that had TS not met HM, it is not likely he would have murdered someone but that's just my opinion. I can imagine his mother gave him some straight talk along the lines of "The best we can hope for at this point is that they don't kill your sorry Black *advertiser censored* and you get off with life in prison and if you are not telling the truth about HM's role, you better start telling now". If she is anything like the many Black women I know, I'm guessing that is pretty much what she said.

I agree. I think he's easily led, but I don't think he would have taken the initiative on his own to murder someone, particularly not in this cold-blooded way.

I hope his mother gave him an earful, and I hope this time he listens to her!

 

[Kamille]

Are they back in court tomorrow? Or today considering the time difference?