Bobbi Kristina Brown found unresponsive in bathtub. #3

[chlban]

I

"When they told me my mother was dead after her open heart surgery, I asked if they could put her back on the heart/lung machine. (no) I would have done anything, anything to have her still with me, even as a nearly lifeless pet. I was not ready to let go but the decision was out of my hands. I understand if Bobby feels that he can't lose his daughter. It's quite possible that he simply loves her. "

First of all, gracenote, my condolences for your loss. And thank you for your honestly in writing this.


I don't know how long it has been since your mother passed, but could you please comment about how you feel now about keeping a loved one on machines as "an almost lifeless pet"? I wonder what you would have to say to the Brown family if you had the opportunity to talk with them.

IMO each of us has the right to live and the right to die with dignity. Keeping someone hooked up to various machines with a body that has ceased to function is really not very respectful of that loved one, IMO.

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I agree about Dr. Gupta. When he first started I really respected him and watched for his reports. But nowadays, he has been "media-ized".

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Another peeve of mine: The National Enquirer bashing that goes on. Yet everyone reads their articles, don't they? In this case they have presented an exclusive interview with someone who brought forth relevant information about this case. They are well known for vetting their sources pretty thoroughly, including administering lie detector tests at times. (I don't know that they did that for this story, but they have done it for other stories and have included the information within the story that the person passed the lie detector test.)

NE has been accurate with many, many of their stories over the years. Do I believe every single thing they say is gospel truth? No, not always. But I don't think it is because they want to print lies, I think it is due to faulty source information.

I absolutley agree that eveyrone has a right to die with dignity, to the point that I support assisted suicide for terminal patients, mentally competent to make the decision When I did my Living Trust I did perfectly fine with what was to happen at my death. It was when the attorney wanted to cover my wishes in the event that I was unable to decide about life support. who would make the decisions, etc. that I got pretty freaked out. That scares me more than dying.

That said, I think 3 weeks is still probably a relatively short time to decide to let your 21 year old daughter go. No disprespect to anyone who had to make that decision with a parent or sibling, I know that is awful, but at least we all sort of "know" that we could be in that position with them. I don't think anyone imagines that decision with a child, grandchild, niece whatever.

I have never liked Bobby Brown and, quite frankly, am not impressed with anyone I've seen within the Houston family, aside from respect for Whitney's immense talent which she squandered for drugs.

However, I have to cut the surviving family some slack on this. I can totally understand that it may take them a bit more time to come to terms with this.

 

[nrdsb4]

This is the kind of reporting which causes confusion:

Doctors have taken Bobbi Kristina Brown, daughter of late singer Whitney Houston, off the ventilator that has helped her breathe since she was found unresponsive in a bathtub last month, but no decisions have been made to take her off life support, a family source said on Thursday.

The ventilator would be considered a primary, if not THE primary source of "life support."

The source, who declined to be identified, said Brown's overall condition has not changed. Removing the breathing tube was a standard course of practice to avoid infection, the source said.
CNN reported that Brown will now receive air through a hole in her throat,

Yes, and most likely the "air" she receives will be delivered by a ventilator.

http://www.aol.com/article/2015/02/...d=maing-grid7|main5|dl7|sec1_lnk3&pLid=616349

If the ventilator has actually been "removed" vs. the ET tube, this would be a major improvement, and no one would describe BK's condition as being "unchanged."

 

[passionflower]

IMOO, this is no life and will never be the life BK had.
A very difficult decision, but my family has all agreed,
that none of us would want to wake up and be a vegetable.
My son once said 'he could never let me go' til he saw this happening in real life to our loved one.
This isn't sleeping beauty waking up in a fairy tale. JMOO

 

[Hiandmighty]

Im guessing reality will hit hard when she is moved to wherever she will go next, after the hospital. If she is kept with family in a family home, they will have to learn everything-- how to change trach tube, how to suction, emergency procedures, how to clean stomas, etc.

 

[Hiandmighty]

Im also guessing that the trach and (speculated gtube) are where the rumors came from last week about "taking her off life support". The docs may have called a family meeting about how its time to do the trach and feeding tube and for them to look at long term options outside of the hospital.

I can see how this may have trickled through the family as getting "taken off life support" probably told among other family as "removing the breathing tube" and "removed from ventilator"...

This is my speculation :moo: and I'm trying to equate it to how medical details are explained in my family when someone is sick... No one gets anything right because no one understands it. This would also explain why reports also say her condition is "unchanged" because that is usually all we get in my family: details wrong and incomplete but with the sentiment accurate: getting better, staying the same, not looking good.

 

[kimlynn]

Im guessing reality will hit hard when she is moved to wherever she will go next, after the hospital. If she is kept with family in a family home, they will have to learn everything-- how to change trach tube, how to suction, emergency procedures, how to clean stomas, etc.

They must be pretty worn down already what with the stress, lack of sleep,and worry. It's amazing though what a person is capable of when need be.On the plus side they could afford quality around the clock care,but I'm hoping it won't come to that.

 

[Hiandmighty]

Im also speculating that she isn't brain dead because I believe the docs would know for sure at this point about brain death and it would have already been certified and a move made to remove life support and her family given a death certificate.

I speculate its worst case scenario: minimal brain activity a half step above brain death. I think she is somewhere between Teri Schiavo and Jahi McMath. I think Teri Schiavo was better off than Bobbi Kristina is.

So very very sad.

 

[Hiandmighty]

They must be pretty worn down already what with the stress, lack of sleep,and worry. It's amazing though what a person is capable of when need be.On the plus side they could afford quality around the clock care,but I'm hoping it won't come to that.

Oh, I'm sure they are exhausted. It took my husband's grandfather 17 days to die in the hospital and (tiny family so I was basically "on duty" at the hospital) and by the end I was getting kinda delirious. I really feel for them in that respect.

Even if they have 24 hour nursing care, they will still have to demonstrate proficiency at caring for her in all respects including emergency trach change because people quit, schedules change, etc. Home health nursing is fairly hard to come by for a lot of reasons and then it's hard to find good people who mesh with your wishes and the way you want things done. If a nurse doesn't show up for a shift, a family member has to be prepared to take the shift in the nurse's absence. The buck stops with the parent.

 

[kimlynn]

Im also speculating that she isn't brain dead because I believe the docs would know for sure at this point about brain death and it would have already been certified and a move made to remove life support and her family given a death certificate.

I speculate its worst case scenario: minimal brain activity a half step above brain death. I think she is somewhere between Teri Schiavo and Jahi McMath. I think Teri Schiavo was better off than Bobbi Kristina is.

So very very sad.

It is very sad,but I'm still hoping as I'm sure we all are. Our hope won't change a thing as far as outcome but I'm still hoping.
K_Z posted that 'sometimes people are more broken than we can fix' and that really stood out for me as true,but no one in the situation of a health crisis of a loved one ever wants to give up or give in until they know they have to.
I'm guessing the family isn't at that point yet.

 

[Hiandmighty]

This is the kind of reporting which causes confusion:



The ventilator would be considered a primary, if not THE primary source of "life support."



Yes, and most likely the "air" she receives will be delivered by a ventilator.

http://www.aol.com/article/2015/02/...d=maing-grid7|main5|dl7|sec1_lnk3&pLid=616349

If the ventilator has actually been "removed" vs. the ET tube, this would be a major improvement, and no one would describe BK's condition as being "unchanged."

Exactly right and I'm guessing about half the articles I read yesterday state she was removed from the ventilator and a few of those say removed from the ventilator and breathing through a hole in her throat.

Of course, many of the people who follow Jahi's story are under the impression she is breathing on her own with no ventilator, so plenty people don't understand the ins and outs of a trach hooked to a ventilator.

 

[kimlynn]

Oh, I'm sure they are exhausted. It took my husband's grandfather 17 days to die in the hospital and (tiny family so I was basically "on duty" at the hospital) and by the end I was getting kinda delirious. I really feel for them in that respect.

Even if they have 24 hour nursing care, they will still have to demonstrate proficiency at caring for her in all respects including emergency trach change because people quit, schedules change, etc. Home health nursing is fairly hard to come by for a lot of reasons and then it's hard to find good people who mesh with your wishes and the way you want things done. If a nurse doesn't show up for a shift, a family member has to be prepared to take the shift in the nurse's absence. The buck stops with the parent.

Very true on all counts. I know some of what they are going through as I dealt with it several times with family myself in the last year.It can wear you down like nothing else can.
And you're correct that they will have to show safe conditions for BK before she would be allowed to be in their care.

 

[Hiandmighty]

It is very sad,but I'm still hoping as I'm sure we all are. Our hope won't change a thing as far as outcome but I'm still hoping.
K_Z posted that 'sometimes people are more broken than we can fix' and that really stood out for me as true,but no one in the situation of a health crisis of a loved one ever wants to give up or give in until they know they have to.
I'm guessing the family isn't at that point yet.

I have teenagers and I get so worried about them growing up and going out into the world. I have told them that it has been my job until now to keep them alive and now that they are driving, etc, it is their jobs to keep themselves alive. (humans and as in the animal world-- some go off on their own and don't survive: its a tale as old as time).

She is 21 (or is she 22?). She is SO YOUNG and I feel so bad for the entire family for all aspects of how this happened and could it have been prevented and how it could have been different.

So in that way, I understand why BB is trying to give her more time. We don't know if he has a timeframe in his head of how long this will play out. I assume he's thinking she is young and maybe her youth will help her overcome this.

But brain cells that have died cannot regenerate. And they can't be replaced or regrow.

So I feel sure he is going on God and miracles at this point and isn't leaning on the medical facts of her case and of what we know is and isn't possible with the body.

On that point, it seems he is just postponing the inevitable. And in the end, that's kinda not fair to her.

I'm sure if her care is futile, medical staff have told him this.

I just hope he understands (or at least is listening) about the new game that will start once she leaves the hospital for her long term care. It can absolutely be a family-destroyer. Families break up under the stress of having extremely debilitated family members on ventilators in the home. It's a 24/7 pressure cooker.

I'm not sure the people who have to make these decisions fully understand or even consider the trade offs of maintaining futile care and how it effects the entire family.

He has plenty to consider, that is for sure.

He may be under the least amount of functional stress while she is the hospital. He is also an addict (recovering, but still an addict: isn't that what they say?) and he has a family with a baby on the way and addicts aren't known for having terrific coping skills.

This whole situation has the capacity to implode and destroy more people than BK alone.

 

[BetteDavisEyes]

I continue to keep Bobbi Kristina and her family in my thoughts and prayers. May G-d grant them the wisdom and strength to do what is in the best interest of their loved one. :rose:

 

[kimlynn]

I have teenagers and I get so worried about them growing up and going out into the world. I have told them that it has been my job until now to keep them alive and now that they are driving, etc, it is their jobs to keep themselves alive. (humans and as in the animal world-- some go off on their own and don't survive: its a tale as old as time).

She is 21 (or is she 22?). She is SO YOUNG and I feel so bad for the entire family for all aspects of how this happened and could it have been prevented and how it could have been different.

So in that way, I understand why BB is trying to give her more time. We don't know if he has a timeframe in his head of how long this will play out. I assume he's thinking she is young and maybe her youth will help her overcome this.

But brain cells that have died cannot regenerate. And they can't be replaced or regrow.

So I feel sure he is going on God and miracles at this point and isn't leaning on the medical facts of her case and of what we know is and isn't possible with the body.

On that point, it seems he is just postponing the inevitable. And in the end, that's kinda not fair to her.

I'm sure if her care is futile, medical staff have told him this.

I just hope he understands (or at least is listening) about the new game that will start once she leaves the hospital for her long term care. It can absolutely be a family-destroyer. Families break up under the stress of having extremely debilitated family members on ventilators in the home. It's a 24/7 pressure cooker.

I'm not sure the people who have to make these decisions fully understand the trade offs of maintaining futile care and how it effects the entire family.

He has plenty to consider, that is for sure.

He may be under the least amount of functional stress while she is the hospital. He is also an addict (recovering, but still an addict: isn't that what they say?) and he has a family and addicts aren't known for having terrific coping skills.

This whole situation has the capacity to implode and destroy more people than BK alone.

Great post,Hiandmighty.
You always have to do what is right for those that can't speak for themselves. At some point I think BB and family will know that they have to let go and it isn't easy. I think her youth and her reported strength,plus their faith in God are factors in why they are having such a difficult time accepting that she may not recover or have the life she had before.
I think it also could be that they aren't hearing what the doctors are probably trying to convey.
They have a history and memories of BK and it can't be easy to let her go but I agree it should be based on what is best for BK.

 

[nrdsb4]

When Jahi McMath was first declared to be brain dead, her family members were inundated with tales of miracles-many stories of people "waking up" and "surviving breath death." The fact was that every single one of them were actually stories of people who had either been misdiagnosed (evaluated too soon after onset of brain swelling or before all drugs had cleared the system), or family or media had confused coma and PVS with brain death.

But a parent is going to hear these stories and hope that THEIR child will also be one of the miracle tales. What if miracle child John Doe's parents had given up too early on him?

I totally understand it. You are already holding on to hope for a miracle. Stories like that only add to the problem. You rarely to never hear the stories of all the people who never "survive" brain death, or the countless sad but all too real examples of people in PVS who simply waste away over the decades, never waking, never experiencing joy or life in any meaningful fashion.

 

[katydid23]

When Jahi McMath was first declared to be brain dead, her family members were inundated with tales of miracles-many stories of people "waking up" and "surviving breath death." The fact was that every single one of them were actually stories of people who had either been misdiagnosed (evaluated too soon after onset of brain swelling or before all drugs had cleared the system), or family or media had confused coma and PVS with brain death.

But a parent is going to hear these stories and hope that THEIR child will also be one of the miracle tales. What if miracle child John Doe's parents had given up too early on him?

I totally understand it. You are already holding on to hope for a miracle. Stories like that only add to the problem. You rarely to never hear the stories of all the people who never "survive" brain death, or the countless sad but all too real examples of people in PVS who simply waste away over the decades, never waking, never experiencing joy or life in any meaningful fashion.

I was asking bout that----the miracles--when I had lunch with my friend who has worked in the ICU for 20 years. I asked if she has seen patients like BK that have suddenly been healed miraculously. And she said YES, there have been drowning victims who came out of deep comas and recovered.

But in her experience, they have all been babies or very young children, whose brain cells and nerves are still growing and regenerating. She said they often have the miraculous ability to regenerate and overcome bleak circumstances. But sadly, she has not seen adults having the same ability to overcome the circumstances that BK has endured. A toddler might have the regenerative abilities but BK would probably not. And if she was going to improve, the doctors would have probably already seen her making some improvements early on.

 

[Storm]

My son is an M.D. and spends most of his time in ICU here in Cincinnati. We don't really need Dr.'s to tell us how serious this is. IMO, if there was anything positive to say or hope for, that's all we'd be hearing. The fact that little is being said should tell us a lot. Her father and family doesn't want to lose her, of course. The family has been told (no doubt) exactly what the situation is and they've chosen to wait. You can know what you should or will have to do, but not be ready yet and I suspect that is the case. I only would object to keeping Bobby K in this condition is if we knew she was alert or conscience of what is going on. I believe if that were the case, we'd have heard a lot about it. We've heard opening eyes etc..typical for this type of injury. My prayers are, of course, for a miracle for Bobby K. Without a miracle, I hope the family can face the inevitable sooner than later. I suspect we will be hearing about this for a very long time since it's being criminally investigated etc. There is so much more to this horrible tragedy that we don't have answers for. I thought I saw a selfie that she posted the middle of the night before she died...does anyone else remember seeing that picture (or did I dream it? God bless them all. This is just an unthinkable situation for any parent. ^i^

 

[passionflower]

My son is an M.D. and spends most of his time in ICU here in Cincinnati. We don't really need Dr.'s to tell us how serious this is. IMO, if there was anything positive to say or hope for, that's all we'd be hearing. The fact that little is being said should tell us a lot. Her father and family doesn't want to lose her, of course. The family has been told (no doubt) exactly what the situation is and they've chosen to wait. You can know what you should or will have to do, but not be ready yet and I suspect that is the case. I only would object to keeping Bobby K in this condition is if we knew she was alert or conscience of what is going on. I believe if that were the case, we'd have heard a lot about it. We've heard opening eyes etc..typical for this type of injury. My prayers are, of course, for a miracle for Bobby K. Without a miracle, I hope the family can face the inevitable sooner than later. I suspect we will be hearing about this for a very long time since it's being criminally investigated etc. There is so much more to this horrible tragedy that we don't have answers for. I thought I saw a selfie that she posted the middle of the night before she died...does anyone else remember seeing that picture (or did I dream it? God bless them all. This is just an unthinkable situation for any parent. ^i^

Are you thinking of the 2am pic that she took with a male friend? She had a red dress on and looked great?
I am thinking yes, she was 21 BUT she had taken drugs (according to friends) and drinking, drastic weight loss so her physical age would be older. JMOO (example: my 88 yr old mom needed a very serious operation, I said no because of her age............DR. said, she never smoked, never drank, never did drugs and her health is better than 40 year olds that I have done this procedure on................he was right......she did terrific.)

 

[Storm]

Are you thinking of the 2am pic that she took with a male friend? She had a red dress on and looked great?
I am thinking yes, she was 21 BUT she had taken drugs (according to friends) and drinking, drastic weight loss so her physical age would be older. JMOO (example: my 88 yr old mom needed a very serious operation, I said no because of her age............DR. said, she never smoked, never drank, never did drugs and her health is better than 40 year olds that I have done this procedure on................he was right......she did terrific.)

That's the picture I was thinking of..was it really taken that night and do you know where I can see it? I just want to look at it..it spoke to me in some way when I saw it and I am now curious.
I am so thrilled your Dr did the right thing! My aunt at 87 years old in Jan 2012 fell and hit her head on her dresser. She had been in perfect health. Because of her age, they would do nothing to even try to stop the swelling or check for bleeding. A friend's 19 yr old daughter had a similar injury 10 or so years ago and had part of the skull removed for the swelling and surgery to stop the bleeding and she's a happily married mom now with no obvious results of the injury. My son tells me they never do that type of surgery on older folks. I realize we aren't as
young and healthy..but we at least deserve a shot at it...they knew she'd die if they did nothing....so why not try to fix it? Not my decision...and I am so glad your mother was given a chance! ^i^

 

[passionflower]

I was blessed. I will look for that photo for you