Bosma Murder Trial 05.16.16 - Day 49

[Kamille]

I'm curious to how many people would remember. If one was to go out into a forest and bury something if they'd really know where exactly they buried it. Be in the frame MS claimed to be in (scared, frantic etc). Don't look for special trees, rocks or anything iconic to where you bury your item and in the dark. Go back in 3 days and see if you can find your item. I'm going to say, I'm 100% sure I wouldn't find my item or even be able to tell you where its location is. Other then, in a forest somewhere and which forest.

I can guarantee I could tell you exactly where I entered the forest. Now where in the forest would be another matter and no, if I was frantically trying to hide something I would not be able to find it again. Unless I wanted to, or wanted someone else to. In which case I might put it in a plastic bag to protect it.

MOO

 

[hopingforjustice]

Here's a "what if"...(I think someone else alluded to this possibility earlier as well)

MS didn't bury the gun. That is his story. That someone close to him got rid of it. He may know vague details of where it went ie: threw it in the river or the lake or the garbage or actually buried in the forest etc. but not really sure where. He has figured he is going down for a while anyway, he will take the rap for this and save that "someone".

Just putting this out there...

I am so torn on this one...I see so many convincing facts on both side of the discussions here. Just when I think I have decided one way, I read a very good post and I am questioning myself. I actually think its a shame the jurors can't share in the wealth of knowledge that so many of you contribute.

 

[canadiangirl]

I think he buried it. But I also think someone else dug that gun up and it's long gone now.

All comments are JMO unless stated otherwise

 

[Jug Up]

I'm curious to how many people would remember. If one was to go out into a forest and bury something if they'd really know where exactly they buried it. Be in the frame MS claimed to be in (scared, frantic etc). Don't look for special trees, rocks or anything iconic to where you bury your item and in the dark. Go back in 3 days and see if you can find your item.I'm going to say, I'm 100% sure I wouldn't find my item or even be able to tell you where its location is. Other then, in a forest somewhere and which forest.

Well, yeah, if you buried your dead hamster in the forest in the dead of night, maybe.

A gun used in a murder of an innocent man that has created public outrage in not just your community, but across the country?

You're going to know where you stashed that gun, much like you would know where you stashed a bag with $1,000 in it. That is IF he did indeed bury it, which I am seriously beginning to doubt.

This is like connecting dots, which I am guessing what LE has done in this whole case. The selective memory of some of these d-bags is not fooling anyone....MOO

 

[ArianeEmory]

I can guarantee I could tell you exactly where I entered the forest. Now where in the forest would be another matter and no, if I was frantically trying to hide something I would not be able to find it again. Unless I wanted to, or wanted someone else to. In which case I might put it in a plastic bag to protect it.

MOO

I haven't delved into this, but I would absolutely remember.

BUT. I navigate in what is theorized to be a very "female" way*--by visual landmark. Once I've been somewhere, it's mapped in my head. I can go back to a town I haven't been to in 10 or 20 years and know where everything is, especially if traveling on foot. (Example: New Orleans.) I also have an excellent sense of direction and orientation.

The flip side is I absolutely can't make heads or tails of WRITTEN directions. I'm okay with a top-down map.

But I know from frustrating experience letting other people drive or navigate that not everyone has this type of spatial awareness.

(*Not sure if the theory of male vs female navigational styles is still current.)

 

[CJPRINCESS]

He knew how to get back. Not buying he didn't know. He was a BMXer, and they know every bike trail behind their house.

I hear what you are saying, but it was familiar terrain to him, and he most likely gave some thought to where it would be safe from LE search technology.

MOO

Do we know this for sure? My nephews have BMX stunt bikes, they ride at the BMX parks and use them to get around on. I don't think they've ever rode their bikes in a forest, even when they had 10 acres of their own trails to use.

 

[Ontario Mom]

You could very well be right, but it could also be that MS realizes the importance of his staying on track and sticking to his story. After all, if he *advertiser censored***s up this time, he knows he will be convicted and IMO that is a powerful incentive to stay the course. Also, sometimes when a person tells the same story over and over again it becomes their "truth" and even if it is a lie they can convince themselves to believe that something happened as they say.

There's so much at stake for MS and I think he is fully aware if it and he's also been expertly prepared by TD. I do feel sympathy for MS, even though I do think he's guilty, because he seems to be more like the others in DM's entourage, wayward and impressionable, and I do think he can be rehabilitated, unlike DM. But I could be wrong and I may be misplacing my sympathy for him and he could have acted out as viciously against TB as did DM. Maybe after LB's trial I will be able to feel more certain about MS. I can't shake her murder off and both DM and MS are charged so it makes sense to me that MS is likely more violent than I'd like to believe.

All MOO.

And despite the fact I tend to believe (mostly) MS's version at this point, in the back of my mind I see Laura smiling waving hello, every now and then. I have no idea what the Crown could possibly have on him for her murder.

In this case, they seem to have tons more against DM, but because MS was there too, he's also been charged and now tried. As evidence and testimony is presented in this case, I've leaned more and more toward MS just being the dupe that was along for the truck theft. So it certainly does make me wonder if in her case, the evidence will be similar? In both cases, the consistent, central person though, is DM.

In this case: DM wanted the truck, planned the truck theft, had been looking for that kind of truck for a long time, made the calls to the owners to set the test drives, bought the incinerator, made all the plans to repaint the truck, etc.

In LB's case: DM was the one she was having a relationship with, went to for drugs (apparently) and was the last person she contacted before she went missing (and then he lied to S about it, at first).

For MS to be also charged with 1st degree in her case, the Crown must have some kind of evidence (circumstantial or solid?) that MS was there, just like he was there for Tim's murder. I suspect we'll all be meeting back right here, for that trial.

 

[hopingforjustice]

IMO This is DM's lawyer's way of saying.....you did it MS...you had the chance to bring peace to the Bosma family and you are lying about everything. In other words MS stating that it was DM that shot TB is a lie and DM's lawyer is backhandedly calling MS a liar by saying he does not believe that MS does not remember where he buried the gun. Implying that the reason MS won't say or cannot remember where he buried the gun is because it will blow holes all through his story that DM did it.

My argument to that is that DM should have taken the stand first and he and his defense throw the first punches with their proof and their logic why DM didn't speak up immediately as he was the first arrested to give the Bosma family resolution..

 

[MrsThreadgoode]

You could very well be right, but it could also be that MS realizes the importance of his staying on track and sticking to his story. After all, if he *advertiser censored***s up this time, he knows he will be convicted and IMO that is a powerful incentive to stay the course. Also, sometimes when a person tells the same story over and over again it becomes their "truth" and even if it is a lie they can convince themselves to believe that something happened as they say.

There's so much at stake for MS and I think he is fully aware if it and he's also been expertly prepared by TD. I do feel sympathy for MS, even though I do think he's guilty, because he seems to be more like the others in DM's entourage, wayward and impressionable, and I do think he can be rehabilitated, unlike DM. But I could be wrong and I may be misplacing my sympathy for him and he could have acted out as viciously against TB as did DM. Maybe after LB's trial I will be able to feel more certain about MS. I can't shake her murder off and both DM and MS are charged so it makes sense to me that MS is likely more violent than I'd like to believe.

All MOO.

Excellent points ... I feel the exact same way regarding not being able to disregard MS's 1st degree murder charge in LB's death, even though it won't be a part of this jury's deliberations, and even though he's innocent until proven guilty ... I can't let it go either.

 

[Claroon]

I'm curious to how many people would remember. If one was to go out into a forest and bury something if they'd really know where exactly they buried it. Be in the frame MS claimed to be in (scared, frantic etc). Don't look for special trees, rocks or anything iconic to where you bury your item and in the dark. Go back in 3 days and see if you can find your item. I'm going to say, I'm 100% sure I wouldn't find my item or even be able to tell you where its location is. Other then, in a forest somewhere and which forest.

Well, a person can google online--how to hide a gun. One of the suggestions is to put it in a bag and duct tape it for weather protections. I'd imagine he might have looked that up which means thought was put into it. The website also adds things like "cover it with leaves and twigs and maybe spill some screws nearby lest someone with a metal detector go looking..." If he planned to retrieve it--thus bagging it up--I'd think he'd make note of where he's putting it. The plan would be to make money on it somehow later--even from prison.

IMO if that was his plan, he'd at least remember which park.

I walk my dog through various parks. I may not remember the exact location I might put something (like a bag of poop I've left behind) but I would know which park, where I entered the park, and the general vicinity I may have left the goodie bag. IMO

 

[Claroon]

Here's a "what if"...(I think someone else alluded to this possibility earlier as well)

MS didn't bury the gun. That is his story. That someone close to him got rid of it. He may know vague details of where it went ie: threw it in the river or the lake or the garbage or actually buried in the forest etc. but not really sure where. He has figured he is going down for a while anyway, he will take the rap for this and save that "someone".

Just putting this out there...

I am so torn on this one...I see so many convincing facts on both side of the discussions here. Just when I think I have decided one way, I read a very good post and I am questioning myself. I actually think its a shame the jurors can't share in the wealth of knowledge that so many of you contribute.

I don't think 14 weeks of evidence and testimony is going to be put aside by the jurors by this accused testimony, especially if they heed the judge's charge about making their decision based on an accumulation of information.

 

[Jen Darme]

Well MH and AM had a falling out because of "lies that were told". I think one of them knew the gun was in the toolbox before giving it to Smitch.

Especially since it was dropped at MH house in the middle of the night. When you've just committed murder or been a part of it the first reaction from DM is to get rid of the drugs? Not buying it.

Personally I think a toolbox full of drugs and a toolbox with a gun would feel very different. And the question was asked. What's in here, a gun?

Then the paranoia sets in. Why did no one want to meet up or GO to MS if it was just some weed? The cowards left it in a stairwell which wasn't even where MS said to leave it. If it's just weed, what's the big deal?

Jmo

One of them, more likely roomie/more clued in AM, may have known or suspected there was a gun in the toolbox but if you think police may search your house, it'd be foolish not to relocate or get rid of the drugs. The drugs themselves are the hard evidence that leads to fines, jail time, and, if the quantities suggest trafficking, mandatory sentences. That could also explain why AM and MH didn't want to meet with MS. By then DM had been arrested and they probably assumed the cops had an eye on MS too (if not the entire band of thieves), and that there were harder drugs in the toolbox in addition to their being in possession of a not insignificant amount of weed. They also took the additional step of using someone else's car.

Btw, the "..." in the text message to MH two hours before dropping off the toolbox is called "dot dot dot." It's typically a response to something you don't wish to discuss, often something inappropriate or joking that nears or crosses a line. IME, it's been used in multiplayer game chat for well over 10 years.

 

[Kamille]

Here's a "what if"...(I think someone else alluded to this possibility earlier as well)

MS didn't bury the gun. That is his story. That someone close to him got rid of it. He may know vague details of where it went ie: threw it in the river or the lake or the garbage or actually buried in the forest etc. but not really sure where. He has figured he is going down for a while anyway, he will take the rap for this and save that "someone".

Just putting this out there...

I am so torn on this one...I see so many convincing facts on both side of the discussions here. Just when I think I have decided one way, I read a very good post and I am questioning myself. I actually think its a shame the jurors can't share in the wealth of knowledge that so many of you contribute.

As the questioning went on today and MS had apparently chosen to have complete fog regarding the disposal of the gun, which was actually making him look more like he's lying IMO, my thoughts immediately turned to him covering for someone he cares about. And since we know that members of his family were apparently aware that there were "things" in his mother's house that needed to be removed, that is where my thoughts also turned.

It wouldn't surprise me to find out he's covering for someone with regards to the gun disposal, however he also seemed to have some fog regarding TB's disposal as well during his direct. I'm waiting to see if he continues with that during his cross from both Sachak and the Crown. If he does, then he's outright lying and obfusticating to save his own butt IMO.

MOO

 

[ArianeEmory]

I think that both DM and MS are guilty of first degree murder, but it's not all black and white decision making for many of us here. Of course we all feel great sadness for the injustice inflicted upon TB no matter what. Still, while we all share that same sadness for what happened to TB and his family, it is a very hard thing to convict either accused of his murder if there are questions about who is responsible. Those who express their uncertainty about either accused (though it's now mostly about MS) and consider how psychology may explain why he has a poor memory for instance, are simply trying to assess testimony and evidence as they need to and not trying to excuse a murderer if they aren't convinced he is a murderer. It comes down to credibility of MS's testimony. Some believe he is telling the truth and others disagree. Some are unsure but we're all wanting to come to an honest decision in our own way and in our own time. We're not on the jury, but just as human beings I think discussions like we have here weigh heavily on us all and it's highly unlikely that we'll all see things the same way. If you're right and people are being played by MS no amount of criticism will help them to see it otherwise, IMO. Sometimes criticism can have the opposite effect. All FWIW.

All MOO.

Thank you. I think we're well beyond the point where any of the regular posters need to be accused of having an agenda. And I think those of us with outlier opinions (or no firm opinion at all) have all been being painfully honest about admitting we may be wrong.

And I say this as a person who thinks MS is lying about not remembering anything about the night he hid the gun. I still respect other people sharing their views on how human memory works, or even personal experiences with trauma.

 

[dar107]

Well I am still all over the map as far as MS. I believe some of what he says but not all. For the most part i feel he held up surprisingly well on his first full day of cross. As far as the gun I don't believe he has no idea where to atleast start looking for it.....but I think he either did bury it and it's still there or someone retrieved it. I think his memory lapse on the gun is more to do with where it came from then with this case. That he likely even had some contact with the seller or his associates while he has been in jail and that peeving that clique off is not something you want to do when your looking at a whole lot of time and good chance of crossing their paths on the inside.

 

[palisadesk]

(*Not sure if the theory of male vs female navigational styles is still current.)

LOL, I don't know about "the theory of male vs. female navigational styles" might be.

But there's no "theory" about gender differences where three-dimensional spatial skills are concerned. Males, as a group, significantly outperform females, as a group, in the ability to navigate in three dimensional space. Individuals of course vary, so for example you might find individual men with poor or low average skills in this area, while individual women can be found who are very superior. If you graph the scores of a random population of males, and superimpose the curved line that results over a similar line representing the scores of females, you will find there are many more men at the upper (right hand) end of the distribution, and many more women in the lower and average (left side) of the distribution.

Group averages tell us nothing about individuals, though. You are probably a person whose 3-D spatial skills are high for a female, possibly above average even for a male, while a guy who was a buddy of mine at university had to be one of the worst ever of any gender. We were driving somewhere,and, get this, he made a U-turn and didn't have any awareness that he was now going in the opposite direction. This became clear in the next few minutes. I was stunned, but incredulous. This guy was very smart but I made a mental note to self, Don't go in a car with him again unless you (meaning, myself) are driving!

There are more air traffic controllers who are men, for this basic reason, apart from any discrimination, which may also play a role. But women get their own back by (as a group) beating the guys in verbal reasoning, language aptitudes of various kinds, and several types of memory.

Here's a paper on the topic:
http://web.missouri.edu/~gearyd/Geary&DeSoto.pdf

I say vive les differences.

 

[NoodlesMcgee]

Main issue I have with MS testimony now is him calling BD's testimony full of lies. Unlike the rest of these people, BD has no DM loyalty or any real reason to lie.

BD and MS communicated 58 times in the month before MS was arrested and they hung out countless times. They were good friends. If you go back to BD testimony he said MS said it was his gun, Dungey tried to get him to come off of it and he did a bit, but not fully.

I do think DM's shadiness and actions in the letters opened the door for MS to feel he can get the benefit of the doubt from the jury just because he doesn't seem as outright evil as DM. The real test for MS will come with the Crown cross. They won't be as limited as DM's laywers who have to avoid a bunch of stuff to not implicate their client.

As for DM's lawyers, they basically got hung out to dry when the DM/CN letters came out. DM was toasted at that point.

 

[ABro]

My argument to that is that DM should have taken the stand first and he and his defense throw the first punches with their proof and their logic why DM didn't speak up immediately as he was the first arrested to give the Bosma family resolution..

I just don't understand this idea that if an accused takes the stand they must be telling the truth and their "speaking out" will somehow help the victims. It strikes me as incredibly naive. The world is full of liars and con artists, many of whom are quite successful.

 

[Elisabeth]

One of them, more likely roomie/more clued in AM, may have known or suspected there was a gun in the toolbox but if you think police may search your house, it'd be foolish not to relocate or get rid of the drugs. The drugs themselves are the hard evidence that leads to fines, jail time, and, if the quantities suggest trafficking, mandatory sentences. That could also explain why AM and MH didn't want to meet with MS. By then DM had been arrested and they probably assumed the cops had an eye on MS too (if not the entire band of thieves), and that there were harder drugs in the toolbox in addition to their being in possession of a not insignificant amount of weed. They also took the additional step of using someone else's car.

Btw, the "..." in the text message to MH two hours before dropping off the toolbox is called "dot dot dot." It's typically a response to something you don't wish to discuss, often something inappropriate or joking that nears or crosses a line. IME, it's been used in multiplayer game chat for well over 10 years.

dot dot dot? you mean ellipses?

 

[Jen Darme]

<modsnip>

The cops searched the ravine behind his mother's house on May 22, 2013. I do think he's covering up for someone else.

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