Bosma Murder Trial - Weekend Discussion #1

[swedie]

Igor apparently could not identify if the tattoo was capital letters or cursive or whatever. He just read the word and remembered the word but not the physical appearance. All he remembers was that it was rectangle shaped like it was in a box. But the tattoo in all caps IS rectangle shaped. I really think that's where the discrepancy is coming from.

MOO

ETA: I also believe he mentioned there were other tattoos but he couldn't remember the details of any of them. Probably because the large scroll is on the inside of his forearms.

Yes you're correct Kamille. At 14:30 into this Hamilton Police press conference video, Det. K gives a description of both the accused, from both SB and IT. Igor said he observed several tattoos on his arms but he cannot remember them except for one, the ambition tattoo on DM's wrist. MOO.

[video=youtube;-QQvNrsjgBk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-QQvNrsjgBk[/video]

 

[flipflop]

I think so because AJ mentioned that there were only 3 employees at the time he was there, AJ, SS, DM.

The incinerator was delivered to the farm in July of 2012, the year LB went missing. Not sure how long SS had been working for him.

 

[billandrew]

Yes, there was video evidence of him at the hangar incinerating TB. What more do you need to hang him?

Would the video on its own be enough, though, without TB's remains later being found in the incinerator? The defense could argue they were just burning car parts or rubbish at the hangar. Without any evidence of TB's body, the defense could argue that they just dropped him off -- alive -- at the side of the road somewhere.

Something else I wonder about: since TB's remains were found in the incinerator, wouldn't that imply they incinerated his body last, after anything else they put into it? I'm trying to imagine if they burned the body first, then threw a bunch of car parts in there, you'd think the remains of the body would be totally gone by then, right?

 

[Ontario Mom]

So now that we know a little more about SS, is he the "employee" who ordered the incinerator? Thoughts?

I remember from the old threads pretty much everyone wondering exactly what in the heck he needed with an incinerator meant for farming, when he had no connection to actual farming or livestock at all. Sure he bought a farm in Ayr but he didn't actually farm it - it was just another piece of property. I believe his bs line to the realtor was something along the lines of him and his fiance planning to build a dream home in the country. Sure... and next Tuesday I'm going to strap on a jet pack and fly to the moon. :facepalm:

 

[ArianeEmory]

There has not been a single article, nor a single argument on these discussion forums in the last (almost) 3 years that has ever lead me to believe there was a 3rd person at the Bosma residence that night - that went on to Tim Hortons. Not one (and I'm usually pretty open about possibilities).

Yeah, this third person thing is seriously grasping at straws at this point. LE made it pretty clear that they didn't believe there was still a third kidnapper at large and a danger to the public. <modsnip>

 

[Tamarind]

Well they sure as heck didn't rollerblade there. They arrived in a vehicle. Where that vehicle was as they were walking down the Bosma driveway is anyone's guess. Unless someone takes the stand and decides to tell where it was. Now wouldn't that be nice?

Exactly, this is why I believe there is quite possibly another vehicle AND at least one other party.

 

[Tamarind]

I remember from the old threads pretty much everyone wondering exactly what in the heck he needed with an incinerator meant for farming, when he had no connection to actual farming or livestock at all. Sure he bought a farm in Ayr but he didn't actually farm it - it was just another piece of property. I believe his bs line to the realtor was something along the lines of him and his fiance planning to build a dream home in the country. Sure... and next Tuesday I'm going to strap on a jet pack and fly to the moon. :facepalm:

I actually believe that is why he bought it and got his dads approval, by taking him along to see it. It's what a lot of people do, they buy land and build a home.

 

[Alethea Dice]

Yeah, this third person thing is seriously grasping at straws at this point. LE made it pretty clear that they didn't believe there was still a third kidnapper at large and a danger to the public. <modsnip>

Would you have a link for that please? All I remember is them saying the danger to the public was over once they arrested MS and that they no longer knew whether there was a 3rd person or if MS got out of the truck and into the SUV.

&#8220;As an investigator, you always talk about tunnel vision and I think it&#8217;d be tunnel vision for me to say that I definitely believe there&#8217;s a third person or to say there wasn&#8217;t,&#8221; Staff Sergeant Matt Kavanagh said Wednesday. &#8220;It&#8217;s possible that there&#8217;s only two involved and it&#8217;s also possible that there may have been a third. And so we&#8217;re looking into that and we still have some doors to shut, some avenues of investigation.&#8221;

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/police-question-existence-of-third-suspect-in-bosma-killing/article12370401/

TIA

 

[Tamarind]

I think so because AJ mentioned that there were only 3 employees at the time he was there, AJ, SS, DM.

Not forgetting that SS was the guy who registered a domain with a DM email address !!

 

[Ontario Mom]

Yeah, this third person thing is seriously grasping at straws at this point. LE made it pretty clear that they didn't believe there was still a third kidnapper at large and a danger to the public. <modsnip>

I really do think the Crown's opening statement says it all. After all the investigative work done, all the cell phone records pulled, interviews, video, photo and forensic evidence, statements, etc., they've every reason to believe the ONLY two people directly involved in the death of Tim Bosma, are the two people on trial right now. Obviously there are others that knew more than they let on, at the time, and others that helped do this or that either before or after the fact, but the ONLY two directly responsible, are DM and MS.

And both should rot in a cage for the remainder of their natural lives. Its the only rational option for a civilized society.

 

[Tamarind]

Yes, there was video evidence of him at the hangar incinerating TB. What more do you need to hang him?

That is not exactly what was said IIRC

 

[Juballee]

The neighbours took pictures of the incinerator at the farm if I recall

I know that the neighbours saw and photographed the incinerator, I was looking for a link that said they regularly saw smoke, as the post I was replying to had mentioned.

 

[Alethea Dice]

Swedie,I remember neighbours near the farm being discussed long ago . I searched in the Incinerator threads, and found this in Incinerator 2. It clearly demonstrates the neighbours were watching things, and were aware that the incinerator was on the property. I am not sure how much they noticed before the case was in the papers, but they were in the area, driving by, and I think DM must have felt safer at the Hangar, where he could control things, and tell people not to come into work. There are also some interesting comments about the incinerator being permanently mounted on a flatbed trailer because it was so heavy, and that was the only way to move it around. Here is what I found in the old threads from 2014 :

Carli
08-24-2014, 12:50 PM
I believe the neighbours did see the incinerator earlier, we just don't know how much earlier. When they went back to take the picture on the Friday, it had been moved from it's original location. Where they had originally seen it is where the scorched ground was.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...6-May-2013-4-**ARREST**&p=9432188#post9432188

JMO

Thanks for the link, Alethea, and thanks, too, to Arnie for interesting contributions to this thread. I can't help but notice that the propane tank and (possibly) the incinerator were securely and permanently attached to the flatbed trailer. This makes sense because these are very heavy items that could not just be manhandled onto the trailer by a couple of people. This still leaves me wondering how there would be a burnt area or ashes on the ground under the trailer as has been reported. Wouldn't there, at the very least, be the blocked in outline of the trailer in that burnt area? If the incinerator burns with such heat on its underside, wouldn't that potentially damage the tires? Again, pardon me if I missed this in the thread, but I haven't seen any references to which vehicle (with a tow hook) that hauled that heavy equipment up the grassy hillside. It's hard to think of a good reason to move it at all. MOO. IMHO.

Thanks for the reminder. Originally, the farm neighbours said that when they first saw the incinerator it was where the scorched ground was, but had been moved recently into the trees. But, according to the Crown's opening statement, CN helped to move it from the barn out to the treed area on the Thursday night. So was it previously IN the barn or just near the barn?

http://www.annrbrocklehurst.com/2016/02/tim-bosma-trial-the-crowns-opening-statement.html

 

[Alethea Dice]

There was no database. Police traced TBs phone records which led them to the Bate phone. The Bate phone led to Igor. Igor told them about the ambition tattoo. Police published the info about the tattoo and two different sources called in and mentioned DM. In fact all that has already been testified to.

So local investigators reached out to other police services in an effort to locate anyone with that tattoo. Two reliable police sources in Toronto and Peel, court heard, told local police that Millard had an "ambition" tattoo.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamilton/news/tim-bosma-case-how-did-police-zero-in-on-dellen-millard-1.3431969

More recently, a physical feature recorded on a &#8220;208&#8221; contact card during a traffic stop led police to accused murderer Dellen Millard.

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2013/11/18/carding_by_toronto_police_drops_sharply.html

 

[Juballee]

So DM goes to his hanger which has video surveillance. If you knew this was going down would you not have disabled video evidence?

I never thought of that, but it makes sense. The more I hear about this, the more unplanned it looks. At least on DM's side, since it's all the things that would have been under his control (his incinerator, his hanger, his tattoos, his employees, etc) that showed no signs of being given any forethought or planning.

 

[Ontario Mom]

Slightly O/T but not really...

I for one am glad this trial is only M-Th. My work productivity has seriously tanked in the last week, as I follow the trial via the live tweets, articles, and discussion here. I work from home and set my own hours but this past week, the Crown has pretty much set my hours. I'll have to be a bit more circumspect next week if I want to keep paying the bills (I'm kind of fond of keeping the lights on, so yeah, I guess I should get back to work).

For those of you following the twitter feeds of verified MSM folks and posting them here - THANK YOU!! I've dedicated a special column on tweetdeck just for this trial with those you've mentioned by twitter handle (most of which I was already following but they now have a new location in my feeds per this trial) but the way you're posting the tweets here is far cleaner and easier to follow than on twitter. My hat is off to those of you who dedicate a time frame each day to post tweets.

For the forum mods in charge of all this... thank YOU! For many of us, it hits really stinking close to home. Some of us knew the family (not me), some of us live close by, some of us are familiar with Ayr, Ancaster, Waterloo, Brantford, Etobicoke, etc. It's a horrible case, horrible details and sometimes, some of us (me) react to certain things with emotion & maybe say things we shouldn't. Thank you for understanding, keeping the threads clean and keeping all of us in check. We notice, and we thank you.

Just felt like all that needed to be said.

 

[Alethea Dice]

I really do think the Crown's opening statement says it all. After all the investigative work done, all the cell phone records pulled, interviews, video, photo and forensic evidence, statements, etc., they've every reason to believe the ONLY two people directly involved in the death of Tim Bosma, are the two people on trial right now. Obviously there are others that knew more than they let on, at the time, and others that helped do this or that either before or after the fact, but the ONLY two directly responsible, are DM and MS.

And both should rot in a cage for the remainder of their natural lives. Its the only rational option for a civilized society.

As should the third person, if there is one. Hopefully, they have found some proof that only two were involved and they weren't just unsuccessful at finding that third person. And hopefully that will come out in the trial so some of us can feel more reassured that "everyone" involved gets their just punishment.

 

[swedie]

BBM. I am somewhat more open to the idea of a struggle due to the rear-view mirror dangling. And I can get behind "DM kills out of necessity" as a theory, and it makes sense in the case of WM.

But why did Laura Babcock need to die?

Or was the mirror was removed to take to the lab and it wasn't put back on properly because it wasn't necessary. In this photo taken in the hangar by AJ, the mirror is in place. MOO.

 

[MsSherlock]

Yes you're correct Kamille. At 14:30 into this Hamilton Police press conference video, Det. K gives a description of both the accused, from both SB and IT. Igor said he observed several tattoos on his arms but he cannot remember them except for one, the ambition tattoo on DM's wrist. MOO.

[video=youtube;-QQvNrsjgBk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-QQvNrsjgBk[/video]

Watching this video today, I realize how much LE knew at the time that they gave this presser on May 10th. IMO, according to testimony from AJ, LE knew that the truck had been found- just didn't know where it was. They had so much info leading them to DM already. They did a great job making it sound like they were far away from identifying someone yet they were sending a couple LE in to the hangar. If DM was listening to any of this, IMHO, he knew LE were playing him- DM knew via SS that AJ had identified the truck the day before. IMO, that's why DM was expecting LE when they got there and was ready to show them around. Also interesting is that Kavanaugh says "they will be identified- by the public"- kind of letting DM & MS know that they'd been very sloppy. HPS did an incredible job right from day 1. MOO

 

[Alethea Dice]

Doesn't this mean the phone was in the possession of MS on May 6th up until DM arrived there around 8:00 pm?

From the phone pings on May 6th:

7:24 am - Bate phone was in Oakville
5:13 pm - TB called Bate phone (no answer)
5:13 pm - DM phone in Etobicoke
5:53 pm - DM phone in Etobicoke
7:22 pm - Bate phone called TB
7:59 pm - DM phone in Oakville
8:13 pm - DM phone in Oakville
9:02 pm - DM phone in Ancaster
9:04 pm - Bate phone called TB
9:44 pm - DM phone in Brantford
10:56 pm - Bate phone in Brantford
11:48 pm - DM phone in Cambridge
11:59 pm - DM phone in Cambridge

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamilton/news/tim-bosma-case-how-did-police-zero-in-on-dellen-millard-1.3431969

http://www.annrbrocklehurst.com/2016/02/dispatches-from-the-tim-bosma-murder-trial-day-three.html