Bosma Murder Trial - Weekend Discussion #1

[iknowhim2]

I just wanted to share some facts, as the trial day by day threads have asked some questions...

Like a camera being at the lights at Highway 52 and Trinity Rd. Yes, there is one. Yes, it's active and Yes, it is well known for people to both speed through that light like bats out of hell and for people to run red lights constantly. Not only is it often monitored by unmarked cops, I have a friend that's been mailed a red light ticket for that intersection and when she tried to fight it, they showed photos of her car, license plate and the smirk she had on her face when she ran it, so that she couldn't get out of it.

Another note: DM is as cocky as reporters are making him out to be in court. It's disgusting to watch and very upsetting to everyone who knows Tim, or this case. I hope none of the theories regarding his behaviour comes about, because his "charming nature" that his lawyer is trying to portray, is heart breaking.

DM was arrested Friday and media was made aware to release it on Saturday, however, two media outlets were aware on the Friday.

Also, the interior photos are from the Kijiji and Auto Trader Ad/photos of TB's truck before the test drive, supplied to LE.

I hope that justice comes to anyone and everyone involved in this case, LB and WM. My gut feeling, is that the "chop shop" theory will come into play more during WM's trial. I think that LB suffered a horrible fate, possibly due to the fact that she no longer wanted to be a part of DM's manipulative games and that's why her friend was trying to help her out, possibly after reaching out to him. MOO

 

[DeepWoodsOff]

It is more risky to steal parked cars these day because of increased video surveillance on homes and in parking lots. Car jacking seems to be on the increase. And you would have no idea if the truck you stole even runs, has the engine specs you're looking for or is a lemon. Then you'd have to go out and steal another one and start all over. No time for that.

MOO

Absolutely agree! Now if we apply the Bosma truck situation, though...they had all the specs from the for sale ad etc. After visiting the house they now knew how isolated it was. At that point they could have test drove the truck, confirmed it drove ok, told him they were going to think about it then come back and steal it overnight? Or a day or two later to throw them off. They clearly were not worried about being seen when they showed up at the Bosma house. Would be better to be wanted for auto theft than murder. MOO

 

[Kamille]

Why did he have a stolen Harley Davidson and the trailer that went with it in his hangar?

http://www.torontosun.com/2013/05/30/stolen-harley-found-on-property-of-accused-tim-bosma-killer

'Has money' does not automatically exclude 'thinks and behaves like a criminal'.

And he still had most of that Harley in the shop. I think in that situation it was the trailer he was after and the Harley being inside was an unplanned bonus. But they weren't in the business of hot motorcycles so it looks like they were unable to get rid of most of it.

MOO

 

[caseyjonesin905]

AJ was working toward a diploma in Supply Chain Management...nothing at all whatsoever to do with building a trailer with lumber from Home Depot. Ridiculous isn't it? But DM would have signed off on that co-op under the title of CEO of MillardAir, a non business. But no one apparently realized that.

MOO

I'm sure they've realized it.. They just need that info for another trial since this one has dna evidence linking at least one of the accused to the Murder.. Guy still needed his Co-op hours though.. why not get it at the place he's going to be working from eventually?Supply Chain management is a fancy term for shipping and receiveing.. Since he didn't have his diploma yet, I'm sure running errands and building a trailer was something to keep him busy in the event that someone showed up to check on his co-op placement (which they do). While I don't think Tim was the first person to die at the hands of DM and MS, and I am still willing to bet that this mess was for what might have been the beginnings of taking the chop shop to a whole other level..

 

[hopingforjustice]

The ripple effect: Tim Bosma and the gift of community

Sometimes the simplest thing can trigger a memory. The other day a song played on the radio, one that Tim always asked our friend Rebecca to sing at karaoke. As the first verse started on the radio, so did the tears. I could remember Tim clearly, sipping his beer and nodding along to the beat of the song. That’s the way many of our memories are now, coated with a bittersweet glaze. Tim had an unmistakeable laugh, one you could hear in a crowded hall and recognize right away. He was a storyteller, a loud-mouth and a prankster. He was a pain at times but we loved him like a brother.


http://www.christiancourier.ca/news/entry/the-ripple-effect-tim-bosma-and-the-gift-of-community

 

[Gibson67]

I believe this theory as well...buttttttttttt my gut is Smitch pulled the trigger JMO. So if the defense creates doubt on premeditated would they then only convict for 2nd degree? I'm just curious if they would still get 1st.

 

[Kamille]

Absolutely agree! Now if we apply the Bosma truck situation, though...they had all the specs from the for sale ad etc. After visiting the house they now knew how isolated it was. At that point they could have test drove the truck, confirmed it drove ok, told him they were going to think about it then come back and steal it overnight? Or a day or two later to throw them off. They clearly were not worried about being seen when they showed up at the Bosma house. Would be better to be wanted for auto theft than murder. MOO

Stealing the truck right from a rural driveway like that would have been very risky. And that house had a large garage, how would they know he didn't keep it in there? How would they know when no one was home or weren't expected to be coming home? There were three adults living in that house.

And logically...if this car jacking had gone to plan (as I believe the plan to be), just like the thousands in this province yearly, none of us would be here talking about it. DM would still be in possession of TB's stolen truck hauling his toys to Baja and other parts unknown, running his "business" and TB would have gotten the blue book value for his truck from his insurance company as well as a good lesson about online selling. The car jacking report would be buried at the local LE station and life would have gone on as usual for all the players in this tragedy.

MOO

 

[HackD]

Regarding TB's stolen Ram 3500.. i've seen several discussion threads positing that it was "being set up to tow the trailer to Calgary, same trailer also being rushed to be finished". This is partially based upon DM's own statements (as remembered by a prospective seller/witness) explaining the need to purchase at a viewing.

I've also seen comments to the effect that the interior was being ripped out, and would be needed to be ripped out to install an interior roll-cage and otherwise ready the vehicle for off-road use. Absolute wrong vehicle to be doing so. This is a street use, Super Duty Vehicle primarily designed for towing, and loading. This does NOT have the suspension setup of an off-road 4x4. I can easily picture DM wanting the motor for his Jeep project - he'd already taken an $11k Jeep, and brought it up to a value of $90k on Kijiji (as SS had it for sale, post DM-arrest) by going unlimited on the suspension and off-road setup for that, racing. It's obvious that DM was heavy into this project - it had let him down already in a race due to failure (unsure of nature) .. the next big thing for that Jeep would be a Diesel that put out enough torque to move mountains out of it's way.

To get that motor, and all related parts necessary for a transplant in another vehicle out of the truck, would have taken some time, and in order to conceal the vehicle remains until disposal, it would have needed to be hidden from prying eyes - even before time and events overtook DM. What better way than to conceal, than in an enclosed race trailer that is relatively easily portable?

My suggestion - there was a rush on to finish the trailer, because the trailer was an integral means of concealing the Ram 3500. If the floor was not sound, it could not safely support the weight of the Dodge 3500. These trailers aren't generally used to haul super-duty vehicles. The RAM 3500 weighed 7155 lbs, 3.5 tonnes.

http://www.dodge.com/bodybuilder/2007/docs/dc/dcmlup.pdf

2007 3500 Chassis Cab Base Weights/GCW/Payload/Trailer Tow
RAM QUAD CHASSIS CAB 3500 60"

Engine / Axle Ratio / GVWR Payload / Base Wt. / Base Wt. Front / Base Wt. Rear
6.7L TD DIESEL (ETJ) A6 AW68R AISIN 6-SPD AUTO (DG3) / 4.10 / 12,500 / 7,155 / 5,350 / 7,155

 

[Errrr]

Obviously Millard's only interest here was the truck. I just don't get why he felt he had to kill TB to get it? Why not just steal the truck at night? The way I see this is that DM needed the truck in a hurry, probably tied in to his urgent need for the trailer. I believe he wanted the ignition intact, which explains why he would want the owner and the key in the truck, and why he didn't hotwire one from a lot. I believe that the plan was to simply pull a gun on TB, take his phone and dump him in the middle of nowhere. I believe TB, who really needed the money for that truck, resisted and was gunned down. Ask yourself why, if Millard's plan was to execute TB, did he allow himself to be seen by TB's wife and neighbour? Ask yourself if Millard was planning on gunning down the guy the previous day in downtown Toronto in the middle of the day? I believe Millard was aware that police don't put a huge amount of resources in to car thefts. Its easier and cheaper to just wait for the vehicle to turn up and hopefully solve the crime via fingerprints. So I don't think he was overly cautious about concealing his identity at that point. The crime was never meant to be more than a car jacking.

I agree to a point. Why were they headed straight for the handy incinerator? I'm thinking they planned to overpower their victim and dispose of them never to be found. People disappear all the time. Stealing a vehicle is not such a big deal as you say. But put the two together and the theft links the disappearance in this case. It appears to me that the plan went bad outside K where TB may have realized he was in trouble and pulled out his phone. That could have led to panic and the gun being pulled within the cab, sending the phone out the window. I can't see these guys driving down the 403 with a blood splattered cab and smashed out window all the way from Trinity. I wonder if glass bits were searched in the drive?

 

[Kamille]

I'm sure they've realized it.. They just need that info for another trial since this one has dna evidence linking at least one of the accused to the Murder.. Guy still needed his Co-op hours though.. why not get it at the place he's going to be working from eventually?Supply Chain management is a fancy term for shipping and receiveing.. Since he didn't have his diploma yet, I'm sure running errands and building a trailer was something to keep him busy in the event that someone showed up to check on his co-op placement (which they do). While I don't think Tim was the first person to die at the hands of DM and MS, and I am still willing to bet that this mess was for what might have been the beginnings of taking the chop shop to a whole other level..

I think you're giving DM a bit too much credit that he was actually trying to start a real high end chop shop business. The only ambition he had was the tattoo on his wrist IMO.

What other trial are you referring to? :waitasec:

MOO

 

[deugirtni]

I have been following along both here at WS and news articles and tweets as much as possible. Just wanted to make some notes:

1)the tattoo, it's size, location (it has been referred to as being on the hand, the wrist, the forearm), whether it was cursive, smallcase, caps,.. it is all really irrelevant and meaningless. The main point about the tattoo is that it got the ball rolling for investigators. Once they had that snippet of information, they immediately latched on to DM's name. From there, the case exploded into a huge amount of info and evidence. Imo only, it doesn't even matter if it really *was* DM and MS (although now it is established that it is agreed upon fact that MS WAS in the rear seat during Igor's test drive) who took that test drive with Igor. The point is that Igor's info about the tattoo enabled investigators to move forward with this case.

2)I noticed the discrepancy in Igor's testimony when first he said the small guy, the quiet fish in the back, asked what he did in the Israeli army, and then later on he said the big guy was the one who asked the question. It could have been reporter error, mishearing what was said, or Igor confusion. The fact that none of the lawyers clued into it and asked further about which it was, leads me to believe it may have simply been reporter error. I am wondering if they might try to make it cause for not believing the witness (perhaps during closing arguments?)... but if they do.. does it even matter.. since the value of Igor was in getting the investigation off the ground with DM.

3)Another discrepancy is DM's mother's neighbour who said the truck appeared on the Wednesday night, the night of the Leafs' game. Looking at the schedule of Leafs' playoffs that year confirms that a game was in fact held on Wednesday night. There WAS no game listed on the Thursday night. Yet AJ's testimony states the truck was at the hangar on the Thursday, but not on the Friday. I'm not sure how or if this will come into play?
http://mapleleafs.nhl.com/club/calendar.htm?date=5/1/2013

4)The workers were ordered to not show up to the hangar on the Tuesday, not because there was a stolen truck on site, but because 'The Eliminator' was cooking TB, probably until 1:30pm or so? JMO

5)Someone made a comment awhile back about how TD is not cross examining much, and some intimating that perhaps his legal expertise is not as great as RP's. I wanted to mention that TD did in fact right away after the Crown's opening summation, ask to approach the bench to argue a point. These times when the jury is asked to leave are not allowed to be reported upon. Imho, TD is doing a good job for his client thus far at least.

6)When certain points are not mentioned, such as anything... whether the hangar was a chop shop for example... don't forget that there were apparently two months worth of pre-trial motions held a couple of months ago, wherein it was decided what would and would not be allowed to be discussed in front of the jury during this trial, for whatever reasons. All of that was pub banned. All parties may therefore be purposely avoiding certain topics.

7)I am curious as to why Igor wasn't asked to ID in the courtroom, whom he referred to as the tall guy? Or perhaps I missed it? It seems that others who have given testimony have been asked to identify DM. Also, did he ID the tattoo? Again, not that it necessarily matters. According to the Crown's opening summation, it sounds like they have a boatload of evidence to say that it was at least DM involved in TB's murder, so prior testdrives may not need to be all that relevant in order for other evidence to be damning enough to convict. MOO

8)Just noting that it seems investigators did not get a search warrant for CN's residence until one year later, at which time they found letters written by DM, DVR, etc. It was at that time that CN was charged with 'Accessory'. It was also around same time that the additional charges were laid in regard to LB's murder and WM's murder against one or both of the accuseds. Does this not suggest that CN also had in her possession evidence in regard to these other murders in addition to what has already been stated in the TB case?
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamil...a-death-faces-2-more-murder-charges-1.2605741

9)As I was reading the tweets as they were posted yesterday, I gasped when the fellow said he'd been fired. I guess another instance of 'dohh' for DM. MOO

 

[JPC]

If he hasn't been charged, I'm sure he will.

Does the Crown have to disclose if a witness for the prosecution has made a plea deal?

I am not implying that SS was involved in any way with the TB case but if a Crown witness has withheld evidence or was associated with another crime (theft or possession of stolen goods) and was granted immunity from prosecution would this need to be disclosed to the jury?

 

[caseyjonesin905]

I think you're giving DM a bit too much credit that he was actually trying to start a real high end chop shop business. The only ambition he had was the tattoo on his wrist IMO.
What other trial are you referring to? :waitasec:

MOO

The two others he's charged with murder for.. I'm sure the chop shop will play a bigger role in the murder of his father, and in LB.
I don't doubt that DM is ambitious.. It's just a shame that he couldn't have channeled that energy for good instead of evil.. It's amazing who you can get to follow your lead over a table full of coke.. MS was a petty **** previously.. just needed a good guide in my opinion. Just like Paul Bernardo was only a rapist before he met his dead eyed bride..

 

[ArianeEmory]

I agree to a point. Why were they headed straight for the handy incinerator? I'm thinking they planned to overpower their victim and dispose of them never to be found. People disappear all the time. Stealing a vehicle is not such a big deal as you say. But put the two together and the theft links the disappearance in this case. It appears to me that the plan went bad outside K where TB may have realized he was in trouble and pulled out his phone. That could have led to panic and the gun being pulled within the cab, sending the phone out the window. I can't see these guys driving down the 403 with a blood splattered cab and smashed out window all the way from Trinity. I wonder if glass bits were searched in the drive?

Just an aside, but I've thought about this one a bit. Blood is mentioned as being on the interior and the undercarriage, so not necessarily visible from a nearby car.

But the window is described as 'shattered' in the opening statement (I'm pretty sure that's the word that was used, someone correct me if wrong). But shattered can mean multiple thngs, including that the glass (safety glass I assume) is 'shattered' but still holding its shape, like a shattered iphone screen. Unless there is an obvious bullet hole, I think we've all seen someone with a cracked or even 'shattered' window or rear window in their car and not thought much of it.

People have also used the phrase 'blown out' to describe the passenger window. I don't think that phrase has been used in official context--can anyone confirm/deny? Anyway, if it was actually fully 'blown out', they could just roll the other windows down, brush away any loose glass, and once again things would look somewhat normal from outside. Well, other than that danging rear-view mirror.

Again, just thoughts, not debate.

 

[ArianeEmory]

Does the Crown have go disclose if a witness for the prosecution has made a plea deal?

I am not implying that SS was involved in any way with the TB case but if a Crown witness has withheld evidence or was associated with another crime (theft or possession of stolen goods) and was granted immunity from prosecution would this need to be disclosed to the jury?

I asked this question in a slightly different way the other day, and the answer I got (from Abro, I believe) was that they would have to at least disclose it to the defense.

Not even remotely a lawyer.

I have been following along both here at WS and news articles and tweets as much as possible. Just wanted to make some notes:

1)the tattoo, it's size, location (it has been referred to as being on the hand, the wrist, the forearm), whether it was cursive, smallcase, caps,.. it is all really irrelevant and meaningless. The main point about the tattoo is that it got the ball rolling for investigators. Once they had that snippet of information, they immediately latched on to DM's name. From there, the case exploded into a huge amount of info and evidence. Imo only, it doesn't even matter if it really *was* DM and MS (although now it is established that it is agreed upon fact that MS WAS in the rear seat during Igor's test drive) who took that test drive with Igor. The point is that Igor's info about the tattoo enabled investigators to move forward with this case.

I have literally spent almost three years now having no idea why people are willing to invest so much time in "did the tattoo have a box". If there is no box around it then DM is magically not a murderer? I understand that a large part of this hobby involves over-focusing on details to the point of tunnel-vision, but sheesh.

 

[caseyjonesin905]

Just an aside, but I've thought about this one a bit. Blood is mentioned as being on the interior and the undercarriage, so not necessarily visible from a nearby car.

But the window is described as 'shattered' in the opening statement (I'm pretty sure that's the word that was used, someone correct me if wrong). But shattered can mean multiple thngs, including that the glass (safety glass I assume) is 'shattered' but still holding its shape, like a shattered iphone screen. Unless there is an obvious bullet hole, I think we've all seen someone with a cracked or even 'shattered' window or rear window in their car and not thought much of it.

People have also used the phrase 'blown out' to describe the passenger window. I don't think that phrase has been used in official context--can anyone confirm/deny? Anyway, if it was actually fully 'blown out', they could just roll the other windows down, brush away any loose glass, and once again things would look somewhat normal from outside. Well, other than that danging rear-view mirror.

Again, just thoughts, not debate.

Exactly, there was more mention of GSR inside the cab, not blood spatter.. Apparently the gun used wasn't a Dirty Harry hand cannon.. was a small calibre in which some circles have discribed what you bring to a rock fight.. without the body, can't be sure if the bullet even left the body.. there's more of a mess on exit, than there is on entry..

 

[Kamille]

Regarding TB's stolen Ram 3500.. i've seen several discussion threads positing that it was "being set up to tow the trailer to Calgary, same trailer also being rushed to be finished". This is partially based upon DM's own statements (as remembered by a prospective seller/witness) explaining the need to purchase at a viewing.

I've also seen comments to the effect that the interior was being ripped out, and would be needed to be ripped out to install an interior roll-cage and otherwise ready the vehicle for off-road use. Absolute wrong vehicle to be doing so. This is a street use, Super Duty Vehicle primarily designed for towing, and loading. This does NOT have the suspension setup of an off-road 4x4. I can easily picture DM wanting the motor for his Jeep project - he'd already taken an $11k Jeep, and brought it up to a value of $90k on Kijiji (as SS had it for sale, post DM-arrest) by going unlimited on the suspension and off-road setup for that, racing. It's obvious that DM was heavy into this project - it had let him down already in a race due to failure (unsure of nature) .. the next big thing for that Jeep would be a Diesel that put out enough torque to move mountains out of it's way.

To get that motor out of the truck, would have taken some time, and to conceal the vehicle remains until disposal, it would have needed to be hidden from prying eyes - even before time and events overtook DM. What better way than to conceal, than in an enclosed race trailer that is relatively easily portable?

My suggestion - there was a rush on to finish the trailer, because the trailer was an integral means of concealing the Ram 3500. If the floor was not sound, it could not safely support the weight of the Dodge 3500. These trailers aren't generally used to haul super-duty vehicles. The RAM 3500 weighed 7155 lbs, 3.5 tonnes.

http://www.dodge.com/bodybuilder/2007/docs/dc/dcmlup.pdf

2007 3500 Chassis Cab Base Weights/GCW/Payload/Trailer Tow
RAM QUAD CHASSIS CAB 3500 60"

Engine / Axle Ratio / GVWR Payload / Base Wt. / Base Wt. Front / Base Wt. Rear
6.7L TD DIESEL (ETJ) A6 AW68R AISIN 6-SPD AUTO (DG3) / 4.10 / 12,500 / 7,155 / 5,350 / 7,155

Great info thanks!

There was also a Baja 500 race coming up on May 30th of that year in Baja, Mexico. DM, SS and AM took one truck, one Jeep and one trailer to the same race in May 2011. He rolled the Jeep in that race which is why he didn't complete it. I believe DM had two Jeeps that were modified. Just something to ponder.

MOO

 

[Alderbrook]

I have been following along both here at WS and news articles and tweets as much as possible. Just wanted to make some notes:

1)the tattoo, it's size, location (it has been referred to as being on the hand, the wrist, the forearm), whether it was cursive, smallcase, caps,.. it is all really irrelevant and meaningless. The main point about the tattoo is that it got the ball rolling for investigators. Once they had that snippet of information, they immediately latched on to DM's name. From there, the case exploded into a huge amount of info and evidence. Imo only, it doesn't even matter if it really *was* DM and MS (although now it is established that it is agreed upon fact that MS WAS in the rear seat during Igor's test drive) who took that test drive with Igor. The point is that Igor's info about the tattoo enabled investigators to move forward with this case.

2)I noticed the discrepancy in Igor's testimony when first he said the small guy, the quiet fish in the back, asked what he did in the Israeli army, and then later on he said the big guy was the one who asked the question. It could have been reporter error, mishearing what was said, or Igor confusion. The fact that none of the lawyers clued into it and asked further about which it was, leads me to believe it may have simply been reporter error. I am wondering if they might try to make it cause for not believing the witness (perhaps during closing arguments?)... but if they do.. does it even matter.. since the value of Igor was in getting the investigation off the ground with DM.

3)Another discrepancy is DM's mother's neighbour who said the truck appeared on the Wednesday night, the night of the Leafs' game. Looking at the schedule of Leafs' playoffs that year confirms that a game was in fact held on Wednesday night. There WAS no game listed on the Thursday night. Yet AJ's testimony states the truck was at the hangar on the Thursday, but not on the Friday. I'm not sure how or if this will come into play?
http://mapleleafs.nhl.com/club/calendar.htm?date=5/1/2013

3 is a great point. This doesn't line up...



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[Ontario Mom]

I believe this theory as well...buttttttttttt my gut is Smitch pulled the trigger JMO. So if the defense creates doubt on premeditated would they then only convict for 2nd degree? I'm just curious if they would still get 1st.

Not sure which theory you're referring to but if Smich pulled the trigger in Tim's truck - wouldn't the gunshot residue be more toward the front/center/passenger side of the ceiling of the truck, instead of on the driver's side in the front?

 

[Errrr]

Maybe he drew a box around his tat to emphasize to himself what his "mission" was: get a truck no matter what it takes. It seems he was also working his staff towards a deadline. JMO

He's a doodler. It's an unconscious expression feeling boxed in....heheh