Bosma Murder Trial - Weekend Discussion #10

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I'd agree because of the time that has passed, but when SS testified, IIRC, it was said that the investigation into thefts was ongoing, IMO.

All MOO.

And what if MH , AM and others are found to have been lying on the witness stand after hearing the remainder of the recovered texts etc or contradictory evidence from MM or CN ???
 
And what if MH , AM and others are found to have been lying on the witness stand after hearing the remainder of the recovered texts etc or contradictory evidence from MM or CN ???

Nothing they say on the stand can be used against them in a future proceeding. I know you are trying to find justice in all of this, but IMO the thefts are in a whole other ballpark than the murder trial we are all witnessing......unfortunately there is no charge for being a bad person and doing the wrong thing.....because I sorta think that's what you've been getting at with these posts.....
 
And what if MH , AM and others are found to have been lying on the witness stand after hearing the remainder of the recovered texts etc or contradictory evidence from MM or CN ???

Lying about what?

I think you missed the big takeaway this week. Most people felt AM was being entirely honest when he said that DM asked if he should steal a truck from "the ******* or the nice guy" and said DM stole the truck "for the thrill of it". For a lot of people, that was enough to sway them to believe that DM was guilty of 1st degree murder.
 
Nothing they say on the stand can be used against them in a future proceeding. I know you are trying to find justice in all of this, but IMO the thefts are in a whole other ballpark than the murder trial we are all witnessing......unfortunately there is no charge for being a bad person and doing the wrong thing.....because I sorta think that's what you've been getting at with these posts.....

As TD pointed out AM was/has been on the straight and narrow before and after his association with DM. BD says he turned his life around, so does MH. What do we have to fear from these guys? Their actual participation in things was minor, and they've been publicly called out. I think justice is done.
 
Getting back to DM and his "business" plans, does anyone share my bafflement at his behaviour in this regard? OK, so the hangar was not going to make money right away, but it appeared from the information I read about WM's long-term projections and the fact that the man who met with DM shortly after WM's death said the prospects for signing clients were very good, and the future was bright, why would DM shut it down immediately with no prospect of making big bucks some other way? Had he gone with the hangar business, sure it would not have yielded him 100 grand/month in pocket money, but it might have covered his basics and provided write-offs for his vehicles etc. and even made a profit that would pay him some salary in the near term.

From comments on this board from people in the aviation industry, and what I recall from some background in, perhaps, SS's testimony, I think there was a major conflict between the aviation professionals who had been hired to work in the hangar, and both DM and SS, with their obsession with fixing up old cars and building things like homemade incinerators. I don't know when those staff were hired, but the first thing DM did after his father died was fire them all.

My speculation is he didn't have a plan, he just didn't want to work with people who knew what they were doing and weren't blindly loyal to him, and he didn't want to give up his territory so that the hangar would become the pristine space that would be required for the MRO, or the hangar-for-rent proposal, to be profitable.
 
Nothing they say on the stand can be used against them in a future proceeding. I know you are trying to find justice in all of this, but IMO the thefts are in a whole other ballpark than the murder trial we are all witnessing......unfortunately there is no charge for being a bad person and doing the wrong thing.....because I sorta think that's what you've been getting at with these posts.....
<bbm>

Not entirely true Random. I posted this earlier from the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms:

from:
http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/Const/page-15.html

Self-crimination

13. A witness who testifies in any proceedings has the right not to have any incriminating evidence so given used to incriminate that witness in any other proceedings, except in a prosecution for perjury or for the giving of contradictory evidence.
<bbm>
 
<bbm>

Not entirely true Random. I posted this earlier from the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms:

from:
http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/Const/page-15.html

<bbm>

You are, of course, right.....thanks for keeping me on my toes! They could be charged with perjury if it could be proven that they lied on the stand (but in the AM vs MH debate.....hard to prove IMO), but they could not be charged for the thefts, as long as what they said was true......if I'm understanding the law correctly. Please correct me if i still have it mixed up!
 
You are, of course, right.....thanks for keeping me on my toes! They could be charged with perjury if it could be proven that they lied on the stand (but in the AM vs MH debate.....hard to prove IMO), but they could not be charged for the thefts, as long as what they said was true......if I'm understanding the law correctly. Please correct me if i still have it mixed up!

Opinion only here. Without a ton of research, I'm not real sure they couldn't be charged ... just that whatever testimony they give in this proceeding could not be used in another against them. I think they could be charged if other evidence exists to take them to trial, but nothing from this proceeding can be brought in unless they are determined to have lied, in which case what they said in this trial could be brought in (impeaching a witness based on contradictory evidence).
 
Getting back to DM and his "business" plans, does anyone share my bafflement at his behaviour in this regard? OK, so the hangar was not going to make money right away, but it appeared from the information I read about WM's long-term projections and the fact that the man who met with DM shortly after WM's death said the prospects for signing clients were very good, and the future was bright, why would DM shut it down immediately with no prospect of making big bucks some other way? Had he gone with the hangar business, sure it would not have yielded him 100 grand/month in pocket money, but it might have covered his basics and provided write-offs for his vehicles etc. and even made a profit that would pay him some salary in the near term.

<snip>

Somehow, none of this adds up to a likely revenue stream. Of course, another (obvious) option is that DM is either delusional, severely lacking in financial acumen, not the brightest bunny in the woods, or all three. What do others think?

I think his family set him on a course he wasn't suited for and didn't want -- and he had no alternatives of his own beyond a reported (by WM to the media) desire to start a helicopter business at 21. It wasn't just the usual overbearing "son, you're going to be a doctor/lawyer/whatever," but there was a multi-million $$ project for DM's future in the form of a new hangar. From what I've read, his father went off course in his twenties too, flying protesters to remote areas and founding a wildlife film company, while the legendary CM, following his passion, tended the business he founded until his death at 93 in 2006. Then WM, in his sixties, took the helm. Within days of WM's death, DM's actions made it clear what he thought of "his" project as he sweepingly began to dismantle it.

DM finally took control of his life and his future, disastrously so.
 
For users of the timeline:

The timeline previously only focused on the period from TB's murder to DM's arrest, but since we now have many tidbits for the period leading up to TB's murder -- and I expect there is more to come -- I felt it would be best to extend the timeline back. Lines like "should I steal the truck from the nice guy or the *******" and "bring a change of clothes", as well as references to the "BBQ" and the generator, are going a long way to proving the premeditation of both a theft and a murder. I suspect that having this information in a chronology will make it even more clear.

Also, the formatting and presentation of the timeline has always been an issue for me (I'm an accountant, not a designer). As the document continues to grow, I decided to revamp it by removing the tabs and consolidating everything on one big page. The intent is to make the information easier to search and navigate, similar to the reporter tweets spreadsheet. I welcome any feedback and suggestions to improve the timeline. Although we are getting to a stage in the trial where the usefulness of this document is declining, I'd like to keep it published as a future reference.

Thank you Bill.
 
A little off topic but the sight of this trailer in front of me going down the road...Mission trailers has new meaning2016-04-15 18.25.10.jpg
 
This reminder lands at random.

Disrespect towards other members and/or inciting conflict in the threads is a violation of TOS with the possible consequence of posting privileges being temporarily or permanently suspended.

If you have a problem with a post, use the Alert feature to let Mods or Admin deal with the issue rather than trying to moderate the board yourself.

:tyou:
 
Billandrew...speaking for myself and I'm sure many others, a BIG thank you for compiling all of the information/facts into this document. It is a great resource and is a quick way for us to look back for information without having to search the threads.
Much appreciation...hope you have a relaxing weekend as I am sure there will be a TON of facts to add next week.
thank you. Makes it much easier to see the whole picture!
 
As TD pointed out AM was/has been on the straight and narrow before and after his association with DM. BD says he turned his life around, so does MH. What do we have to fear from these guys? Their actual participation in things was minor, and they've been publicly called out. I think justice is done.

This is true. Perhaps not in huge corporations, but I believe most employers now do their own little research on those they may be ready to hire. I think these men's friendships with DM and whatever participation they had in whatever antics were reported upon during this trial, will haunt them for life in one way or another. I don't believe there will be further charges, but as mentioned above, justice has been done, perhaps even harsher justice than what would have resulted if they'd been caught and charged at the time.
 
Getting back to DM and his "business" plans, does anyone share my bafflement at his behaviour in this regard? OK, so the hangar was not going to make money right away, but it appeared from the information I read about WM's long-term projections and the fact that the man who met with DM shortly after WM's death said the prospects for signing clients were very good, and the future was bright, why would DM shut it down immediately with no prospect of making big bucks some other way? Had he gone with the hangar business, sure it would not have yielded him 100 grand/month in pocket money, but it might have covered his basics and provided write-offs for his vehicles etc. and even made a profit that would pay him some salary in the near term.

I fail to see how Bobcat heists would net that kind of money on a regular basis (I don't know much about Bobcats, obviously they are a valuable commodity as two dealers are right around the corner). The suggestion that he might have more sinister business models in mind for the "BBQ" doesn't sound like a high-cash-flow deal either. Someone I was talking to through work was in touch with a contract "hit" man he knew and shared the surprising information that the charge was relatively low unless the "target" was a high-profile person. Someone in that line of work would need many hits per month to come close to the desired amount.

Somehow, none of this adds up to a likely revenue stream. Of course, another (obvious) option is that DM is either delusional, severely lacking in financial acumen, not the brightest bunny in the woods, or all three. What do others think?

That psychopathy description seemed to describe characteristics that mirror DMs bad business sense. He doesn't stick to plans long enough, impulsive, not taking responsibility etc. I got the impression that the impact of having zero income could not be felt until the bank loan for the MRO equipment ran dry. It seemed to be fuelling everything he did at that point, including his and his moms paycheques. He was aware of it since he mentioned an amount to AM but just wasn't motivated to stick to a plan.
I'll bet he was loath to make money the way his dad planned because it looked so dry. He seems to be banking on a successful invention putting him in the black someday. He proudly tells people of the amazing things going on in his head as if everyone will praise him like a mommy even when doesn't follow through. JMO
 
DM, as diabolical as he is, did not operate his crimes in a vacuum, and far from it, IMO. DM had along the way so much positive reinforcement from others in his midst, IMO, if only by their careless silence, which was enough to validate him and spur him on until his crimes progressed to include the ultimate crime of murder, IMO, complete with the chilling conclusion of having incinerated his innocent victim’s body, IMO. DM's devoted criminal menagerie could have at least challenged DM at some point to yank hard on his reins that he had so cunningly attached to them, IMO.

Did the fact that so few if any resisted or rejected DM’s criminal overtures and scandalous schemes communicate the message to DM that he was in fact invincible, just as his companions then thought themselves to be indestructible in his company and by association with him? Did they unwittingly embolden and bolster DM by their endorsement of his villainous impulses and ideas or by their participation until DM was convinced that nothing he proposed, or in fact would do, or ask of them, no matter how risky or shocking, would ever meet with anyone’s genuine disapproval and failure to comply? Did anyone ever refuse to play an extra to DM’s starring role in his immoral game of life and death?

It seems that many people in the shadow of DM’s power only indulged his craving for dire drama and terrible thrills without any thought for the victims of his and their crimes, IMO. Would they have been so blind and oblivious to the dangers involved that they could not see where DM’s twisted mind was leading, and leading them haplessly along with him, until they too became his victims? Did none among them ever consider what the limits of DM’s reign might be, where it would all lead or end? Did they ever entertain or anticipate the possibility that if left unchecked, DM’s criminal tendencies might escalate out of control to the point of no return?

Did no one catch on that perhaps this “millionaire” DM was a fraud and a felon with only his own depraved need for perilous adventure in mind despite the risks to which he was exposed and would expose them to, and despite that they too would have had to become frauds and felons as well to appease him and remain in his good graces? Was their enabling of his fantasies, and their assistance to him in carrying them out, earnest acceptance of DM’s behaviour and theirs?

At the very least, if more among them could have summoned up the courage to confront DM, they could have walked away from him when they were still under their own physical power and able to do so, unlike that of his alleged victims TB, WM and LB, who never, I suspect, had that choice, IMO.

DM was a predator who grew increasingly bold and unbridled until his vile thirst for excitement and power could no longer be contained, IMO. I do wonder if others had not so willingly indulged with DM in his dark fantasies and miscellaneous missions, or had at least tried to suggest or impose some limits, if DM would have been able to escalate to murder on his own, IMO.

Even after LB was murdered, and then when DM’s dad committed suicide, and later when DM was charged with his murder, the loyalty to DM and his pack’s mentality continued unchallenged until their appearances in court, and even then, I could detect some remnants of loyalty toward DM, IMO. And now after getting a glimpse of the conversations that were taking place around or after these tragic events, DM did not seem to suffer from the rejection of his inner circle, his chosen few, IMO, and that is most unfortunate for everyone involved, IMO. Who knows if just one among them had the courage to shine a light of suspicion upon DM, if things today might have been different? As I have said all along, DM never acted alone, IMO, and he had plenty of time tested and “trustworthy” friends and acquaintances in his midst who seemed to have come under some kind of spell, but there was nothing magical about it, IMO. It truly does take a village, IMO.

I can only conclude that DM’s missionaries lost any and all common sense, and with it their sense of direction, and therefore by following DM, they too lost their way, IMO. I hope that those who survived DM’s influence will discover a new and brighter path to follow in future, and I hope that they will never again be so enthralled by the lure of crime and corrupt criminals for a promise of meaningless excitement, quick cash, or street status. DM was not heaven sent and I hope no one ever dares to forget it.

All MOO.
that is a very explicit description on DM and his entourage! Thank you for the insight into the workings of his brain and the complex relationships he had with his pals. Like children who follow the popular kid and end up making poor choices as a result. Except their escapades had adult consequences, ie LE involvement, drugs, guns, theft, no respect for rules or human life, causing turmoil for the victims and their families. Moo
 
Huh. Shows me how much habits and patterns impact knowledge in these cases. I consume reams of news and information on a daily basis, but rarely seek out local news. This would be local to me - and I'm hearing about it on Websleuths. Horrible to imagine that copycat crimes might be another legacy of this nightmare for the Bosmas. I'm going to keep an eye on this story going forward with great hope for a better outcome. :(
. My husband drives an avalanche so this is eerily disturbing. Let's hope this story turns out better than Tim Bosma's did.
 
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